Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

doen and done.. power armor is power armor, my orks can't tell them apart except them blood angels (they go fasta)

but yea my marines are a custom paint so i can use any space marines rules I want to avoid this issue... not that I'd use anything but vanilla marines or black templar atm, the rest is WAY to OP and it feels like cheating to use em

I would just stay "That's fine WAAC man, lets game" And dock him for points if there is the option to.

Wrong-coloured plastic space mans are serious business.

Guess I can't use these as Blood Angels, huh?



Or these as Dark Angels:



While I personally would frown upon it in this situation (and even a phrase as mild as "frown upon" is still too strong to describe my feeling toward it), I wouldn't really care, say anything, or even be remotely phased by it. Technically you can paint whatever chapter whatever colour you damn well please and it's perfectly OK. The only thing I can think of that might be a problem would be TWC, but I don't even know how common that unit is in a SW army.

If we're going this route, then you better not be using al'Rahem unless you're using all Tallarn models (Ha ha ha, like that's gonna happen) and Dark Gods help you if you have both Tzeentch and Nurgle troops in the same army!

If I was still buying GW stuff I'd be sorely tempted to buy a bunch of Grey Knights and paint them like Ultramarines, or perhaps bright bubblegum pink just to annoy srs bzns types.

Well, I'd turn you down because, as EVERYONE knows, beakies are frowned upon in polite society anyway.

Refusing to play a person in this situation is like arguing that because the glow stick color is not green it can't be glow in the dark.


Stupid and pointless.



WYSIWYG is the only important thing to me. because that is the rules. a color scheme is not.

There are NO rules that say the army has to be painted like the ones in the books. Having SW painted like BA, BT, or even ultramarines is legal.

His army is WYSIWYG; PA without a wolf hide cape is still a 3+ save, a flamer without the salamander's dragon mouth still uses a template to count hits, and a rhino with the ultra marines omega can still run as a blood angel rhino.

If you have a problem with his beautifully painted army running as a different loyalist chapter while being WYSIWYG, you are TFG.

-cgmckenzie

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

Please dial down the hostility rather than making this personal. Thanks!

1. I'd much rather, as a player, play a well painted BT "counts as" army than have every army painted as SW or GK... or worse, unpainted. It's less than ideal but we don't live in a perfect world.

2. The rules seem to favor it if it's all modelled correctly.

3. BT are the most prolific parent chapter, are they not? Rather than "Black Templar can look like anything", this could be an inversion... anything can look like a Black Templar. Why? When parent chapters hive off they often will send divergent elements of their own chapter there to purge themselves, while allowing their brothers to do their own thing. So a umpteenth founding chapter retains a lot of BT iconography and picks up a taste for more special weapons and veteran HW squads. Meanwhile they continue to manifest the BT love for H2H but do so in a slightly different way. It's all good. Nothing to call the Inquisition over.

4. On a non rules note; How sad that GW choses to orphan significant chapters to the point that this is even a question! It's bad enough when I find myself thinking of using my Khorne army as Blood Angels... (same colors, same bloodlust, same anger management problems, furious charge and feel no pain make sense, Bloodthirster will make a good Sanguinator.)

Nothing wrong with a little marine for marine counts-as. But if he wants to play his BT models with codex SW he should refrain from a few things, such as using scouts because space wolves scouts could only be more of an opposite to the BT equivalent of a scout if they wore terminator armour.

There are way too many tin boy codices out there to keep them all up to par with the current standard so i don't blame anyone who decides to play his guys for something that is essentially little more than the same guys with a different colour.
in favour
Also i'm generally of suiting counts-as, even (and especially) if someone comes up with something completely out of this universe. I love playing unusual armies and have a bunch of exodites myself that i run as eldar with an emphasis on jetbikes and wraithlords. (i would also use wraithguard but i havent foudn anything that would suit their statline AND wit on a 25 mm base)

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

RatBot wrote:

Guess I can't use these as Blood Angels, huh?



Or these as Dark Angels:

Quoting myself to prove a point. Those aren't Blood Angels or Dark Angels, so I can't use them as such, correct?

Alazahr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

If you SEE marines, you GET marines. As long as they do not have black templars unique wargear, there is no problem.

GW made the rule WYSIWYG, they also made the rule that you are allowed to use your marines as any type of marine rules you want. That is literally said in the Marine codex. Perhaps you should spend some more time reading your codex, and less time getting angry at what color peoples' marines are for no reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Alazahr wrote:The figures as they are not WYSIWYG. They represent a separate faction and can confuse possible rules to your opponent. DQ.

-J.

You're so wrong and ignorant it hurts.

EDIT: So I take it you have never read anything that GW has said with regards to using different colored models/rules? Because they have flat out said that you are wrong. Just thought you might want to do that.

@Manchu - Note received.

@ph34r - I don't understand how GW represents everyone as a collective whole. Just because they said so doesn't make it true. By your basis a person that sets down an Iyanden Craftworld Eldar army and then proceeds to say, "Oh, they're Ulthwe." is on the same terms w/ the OP. How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

I am wrong and ignorant? These are my opinions; opinions can not be wrong. The original state of the comments was, "Guy throws down one painted color army and uses the rules from another painted army." My opinion is that it is NOT WYSIWYG. Let's break that down if we could:

What
You
See
Is
What
You
Get

I SEE Black Templar, I GET Space Wolves. Hmmm... Paint is a part of WYSIWYG from my perspective. I stand by what I said.

-J.

If you SEE marines, you GET marines. As long as they do not have black templars unique wargear, there is no problem.

GW made the rule WYSIWYG, they also made the rule that you are allowed to use your marines as any type of marine rules you want. That is literally said in the Marine codex. Perhaps you should spend some more time reading your codex, and less time getting angry at what color peoples' marines are for no reason.

How would this not confuse some players? Say this person's brother has an Iyanden army and he plays against him all the time. After awhile you learn your opponents to a fine letter "t" just by facing them. Now you have even more possible confusion that can apply.

Some people are confused by big numbers or flashy colors. Luckily we do not have to tailor our armies to reduce their confusion!




Actually, now that I think about it, you are right! I think that nobody should be able to use the same color scheme as anyone else! For example, my cousin billy is absolutely awful at 40k, and he plays Iyanden! If I fight against someone else that plays Iyanden that doesn't suck, that causes a great amount of confusion for me! I have learned his magnitude of sucking to a fine letter "t" by facing him!

As I was being respectful to the OP and Mods I will be removing myself from this topic. I feel your insults have been reduced to nothing, but insults and sarcasm. "ph34r" if you would like to continue to discuss this thread, in any form, please contact me via PM and we may do so.

-J.

Alazahr wrote:As I was being respectful to the OP and Mods I will be removing myself from this topic. I feel your insults have been reduced to nothing, but insults and sarcasm. "ph34r" if you would like to continue to discuss this thread, in any form, please contact me via PM and we may do so.

-J.

As I similarly feel that your argument has been reduced to "not reading the space marine codex", I agree with you that our discussion is not making ground and has no point in continuing. Good day sir.

I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

monkeyh wrote:I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

What if you REALLY like the models for BT (IMO they are the best looking SM models out there) but don't like their rule set? Or you want to have an all assault marine list? Or things like devastator squads? Or if you bought SW because you just like their LOOK but just want to play them as basic marines?

I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

Shrike325 wrote:
I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

I'd care a great deal, as it'd mean the BTs got a new, awesome codex. Nobody ever "counts as" to actually downgrade their effectiveness.

Brother SRM wrote:"Oh, a counts-as army. Okay, everything's WYSIWYG? Cool, let's play."

This and tell him that Templars can still compete with their codex, in fact they can do very, very well.

And can really throw off people with set expectations.

I lance your tanks with my shiny new lance-happy DE. Your metal boxes are mine... bwuahahahaha


'Um, no. You don't. Now about that.. My Crusaders open up on all those nice exposed flying gondolas with paper armour '

BT are awesome. If i ever get back to playing SM's it'll be them.

Shrike325 wrote:

monkeyh wrote:I still think the opponent should stick to his guns and play the BT's as they are. As someone who puts a lot of time and effort into making my CSM models look right, I'd never use plague marines as Thousand sons for example, and quite frankly I'd be a bit miffed if my oppo did the equivalent. If you are using Imperial marines and you want to swap from standard codex chapters (say Ultra Marines to Crimson Fists so you can try using Pedro Kantor for a change) isn't too bad, but changing to something that's got it's own specific codex? I don't think it's really in the spirit of the game to change to something just to increase your chance of winning so shouldn't be done. If you want to use some Space Wolves - get some and fight them along-side your Black Templars.

What if you REALLY like the models for BT (IMO they are the best looking SM models out there) but don't like their rule set? Or you want to have an all assault marine list? Or things like devastator squads? Or if you bought SW because you just like their LOOK but just want to play them as basic marines?

I think the problem most people have with this idea is that he's using a decent (yeah, yeah, "best", whatever) codex in a tournament instead of a completely outdated codex. If he had a bunch of Space Wolves painted up and was running them as Black Templars, nobody would care.

I still think if you're not entirely happy with just playing BT's then throw some different chapters into the mix (this could actually work to your advantage). You don't have to stick exclusively to fielding just one chapter. I don't with my CSM's. If it suites, I'll play a mix of Death Guard and World Eaters.

Personally I think that the people complaining about this need to pull their head out. Not everyone can afford to buy more models just because they want to field another army, expecially when the army they want to field is all but the same. Hell, I probably _can_ afford to, but I can't even find the time to paint one army. I do a model now and again, and slowly but surely they get painted. But if he's not happy with his Templar codex and wants to play space wolves, but not a)buy an entirely new army then paint it or b) strip and repaint his models to just so they're the right colors why in the sphincter of hell should it bug you? If it confuses you that much, perhaps you should find another game? Because you obviously can't remember some fairly simple things.
Personally I love the look/feel of the wolves, but don't like the colors. Are you really going to not play me because I decided to field a wolves army that's red/purple? What about if I love the look of DA, but like the feel of a SW army? seriously people, if it bugs you that people are doing this you're forgetting the most important rule: have fun.

CoI wrote:Personally I think that the people complaining about this need to pull their head out. Not everyone can afford to buy more models just because they want to field another army, expecially when the army they want to field is all but the same. Hell, I probably _can_ afford to, but I can't even find the time to paint one army. I do a model now and again, and slowly but surely they get painted. But if he's not happy with his Templar codex and wants to play space wolves, but not a)buy an entirely new army then paint it or b) strip and repaint his models to just so they're the right colors why in the sphincter of hell should it bug you? If it confuses you that much, perhaps you should find another game? Because you obviously can't remember some fairly simple things.
Personally I love the look/feel of the wolves, but don't like the colors. Are you really going to not play me because I decided to field a wolves army that's red/purple? What about if I love the look of DA, but like the feel of a SW army? seriously people, if it bugs you that people are doing this you're forgetting the most important rule: have fun.

It's a fair point the bit about being able to afford new marines and something I hadn't considered, after all we all bemoan the extortionate prices we have to pay for GW stuff. Maybe I'll give them some leeway then

I wouldnt allow it. Should match with the appropriate codex if he wants to play.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:I wouldnt allow it. Should match with the appropriate codex if he wants to play.

What about people that make up their own chapter colors that bear no resemblance to any codex? What if they have models from all the different lines but painted under 1 paint scheme?

My SM chapter (Bald Eagles, if anybody cares) have a red, white, and blue armor scheme, is lead by Steviun Rogerious, and has an unhealthy mix of every terrible unit because I like the fluff or model. I have some SM, BA, and BT models as well as LOTD, converted SW, and an old school land raider. What codex can I use?

-cgmckenzie

I think it's hard to articulate a reason to not allow cross codex armies that would not also disallow many other armies.

Meaning, aside from matters of taste, why shouldn't people cross books? What's the harm, and what's the problem? If it's confusion, how is it substantially more confusing than grey plastic? And aren't painted armies good for the hobby in a way that grey plastic from the "correct" codex aren't?

It does "seem" wrong, but that's not enough to forbid something.

Really? Who cares...

Power armor? Check.
WYSIWYG weapons? Check.

As long as it's WYSIWYG, and he isn't doing the usual "These bikes are Thunderwolf Cav, and the squad with the heavy bolter, plasma cannon, and double lascannons is actually a LF squad with missile launchers...", then who cares?

Polonius wrote:It does "seem" wrong, but that's not enough to forbid something.

Well said polonius!

I would be happy to have a painted opponent in most stores. I'd play the guy. I might chide gently about it, but thats all.

I lay more of the blame on GWs jacked publication cycles and codex creep than on a guy stuck there. Especially if he had the army from before 5th edition, and it looked nice.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:...doing the usual "These bikes are Thunderwolf Cav,...

LOL there was a guy in texas who played my buddy at WARGAMESCON, he was using regular (unpainted) space marines on dark eldar skyboards as thunderwolf cav AND shooting long fangs under them claiming no cover save, bad. I saw the conversions on their little clear flight stands, terrible, that's a lot worse than a proxy painted wysiwyg army IMO.

Augustus wrote:LOL there was a guy in texas who played my buddy at WARGAMESCON, he was using regular (unpainted) space marines on dark eldar skyboards as thunderwolf cav AND shooting long fangs under them claiming no cover save, bad. I saw the conversions on their little clear flight stands, terrible, that's a lot worse than a proxy painted wysiwyg army IMO.

THIS is where the TO needs the balls to say no. The part in bold is very bad.

It's good to hear that no one really has an issue with counts-as stuff.

The following story won't really make sense as to why I'm posting it here, until I've finished it.

For my Space Marines, I've got pretty much everything I want for them, but I add new stuff sometimes because it looks cool or I think it'd be fun to use.

I also get birthday and Christmas presents FOR a friend who's online. Since I have a strong desire to keep my online friendships online-only, I build them myself, paint them myself, and keep them, but take photos for him. ^_^

He's a very good friend, easily worth a hundred bucks once or twice a year. So far I've gotten three Vindicators - together, when I was interested in a Linebreaker Squadron for Apocalypse - a Space Marine Commander on a bike, and most recently, a Space Marine Commander on foot. The one on foot was built from a combination of parts from three different kits - the Space Marine Commander kit, the Command Squad kit - I used the Company Champion's tabard - and the Space Wolves Pack kit. I run a Codex: Space Marines army these days, but after using that one head from the Space Wolves Pack kit - the one that's a wolf helm, as my friend RPs as a vulpine humanoid - I had ten miniatures left over from the kit that I was going to build and use as Sergeants, with WYSIWYG wargear. Then I got the bright idea to put all the power weapons I had left over on them, and use those ones as Honor Guard, with the others being sergeants with the remaining lightning claws and thunder hammer.

Since the minis would be built from the SW Pack kit and have SW aesthetics, whereas the rest of my army is entirely vanilla SM minis, I was a bit worried that people might not care for it.

I rationalized that it'd be a cool way to make the honor guard stand out in an army whose background could reasonably support it. They're not loyalist Space Marines, they're former Chaos Space Marines and former Loyalist Space Marines who have been converted away from the Dark Gods or Imperium, and into a more friendly way of looking at things. The xenos psyker - played by my Internet friend I mentioned earlier - who's converted them to his side to help free his world from Chaos invasion, has remarkable and untainted technology capable of transforming living beings to look any way they desire.

Alternatively, I considered having them be Space Wolves who were turned in the same way those Chaos Marines were, but kept much of their aesthetics. Wasn't too sure on that even though it would require the fewest leaps of faith, given the odds that random Chaos and loyal Space Marines given the chance for new aesthetics, chose Space Wolf stuff? Little coincidental. I wasn't sure if Space Wolves really went rogue, though, even through the use of mind-bending psykers and technology.

Yeah, I really don't care for the whole grimdark thing, to be honest. Love the game, love the aesthetics, hate the fact that everyone's all, "KILL KILL KILL NO LOVE NO PEACE JUST KILL KILL KILL," so my friend and I came up with an ongoing series of roleplays where we put some friendliness into the 40k universe. ^^ It happened naturally, really. I introduced some Battle Sisters into our roleplays, and it really snowballed until we'd consumed an entire planet.

All that's neither here nor there, just a little bit of further explanation and I tend to ramble and babble on.

Good to know that as long as it stays WYSIWYG, most people don't care. ^_^