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By a hundred Grey Knights no less, he still caused the deaths of uncountable billions.

Ironsight wrote:
His name is Abaddon. You may have seen him around. Black Terminator Armor, topknot, no arms...?

He would be fine if he weren't a joke in 40k when it comes to fluff :(

Horus clones would not have Horus' soul. Cloning is done on the genetic level therefore it would be him as an infant possibly tainted but not with his memories. He would still be a primarch and therefore an incredibly charismatic general, skilled warrior and 1 SoB to kill but it would not be Horus.

Coa- Where did you get the idea the EC failed to clone horus, all the fluff i've seen has suggested it worked.

While it may seem to go against the fluff we have a definate example of cloning someone without a soul- so it does work.

The most likely explanation is that the cloning process creates a new soul. If it's possible for realspace actions to create a soul when humans are born naturaly there is no reason cloning couldn't have the effect. He wouldn't be Horus from the original Horus' perspective but no one else would be able to tell. He would still be capable of all the things Horus was.

Metalskunk wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Doesn't the Abbadon quote go "Horus was weak, He had the entire galaxy in his grasp and let it slip away." or something like that.

Yeah, after Horus lost, Abaddon thought Horus was weak and decided that he should surpass him. I doubt he would let Horus surpass him in the eyes of the gods of chaos anyway.

He still isn't a Daemon Prince so he kind of isn't worth 2 squats to the chaos gods...

deffskulla wrote:

Metalskunk wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Doesn't the Abbadon quote go "Horus was weak, He had the entire galaxy in his grasp and let it slip away." or something like that.

Yeah, after Horus lost, Abaddon thought Horus was weak and decided that he should surpass him. I doubt he would let Horus surpass him in the eyes of the gods of chaos anyway.

He still isn't a Daemon Prince so he kind of isn't worth 2 squats to the chaos gods...

He isn't a Daemon Prince because no single God favors him heavily enough to "gift" him with Daemonhood.

He is, however, the only leader amongst the servants of the Dark Gods to have the favor of all four Ruinous Powers.

Just because a warleader hasn't been turned into a Daemon Prince doesn't mean he's accomplished nothing or that he's not worth looking at. Too many "gifts" of Daemonic mutations can be just as useless as none.

4M2A wrote:Coa- Where did you get the idea the EC failed to clone horus, all the fluff i've seen has suggested it worked.

The EC did manage to create something, but whether or not what they created would have been a successful clone of a primarch's body, much less a clone that includes all the superawesomesauce that is a primarch's personalty/soul is a seperate issue. Creating a primarch had a lot more to it than hacking together the DNA and kicking it off in an artificial womb. Remember that the reason the Space Marines were created is because the Ruinous Powers grabbed and scattered the primarchs, and the Emperor was not able to recreate them using the materials he had available. I believe the original plan for the Great Crusade was to have primarch armies running around the place. Pretty sure about that at least.

As far as the OP goes?
1. Horus' soul is gone, blasted out of existance. Horus is gone for good.
2. Abaddon thinks Horus was a loser, so he wouldn't even try to bring him back even if he was available for an encore.
3. The only weakness the Necrons have is the warp. I seriously doubt that Necron tech could survive, much less be enhanced by exposure to the warp.
4. Necron resurrection orb technology only works on Necrons, and only Necron units that have that special Necron rule. There's no reason to think it would have any effect on a piece of meat.

4M2A wrote:Coa- Where did you get the idea the EC failed to clone horus, all the fluff i've seen has suggested it worked.

Body - yes
Soul - NO

Again what proof do you have they didn't manage to give him a new soul. All the fluff I have seen just said they created multiple clones. Without any additional info all we can tell is they managed to make anothe Horus, not a horus without a soul.

4M2A wrote:Again what proof do you have they didn't manage to give him a new soul. All the fluff I have seen just said they created multiple clones. Without any additional info all we can tell is they managed to make anothe Horus, not a horus without a soul.

And what proof do you have that they have? Those clones would very easily be brain dead for all we know.

Brother Coa wrote:

4M2A wrote:Again what proof do you have they didn't manage to give him a new soul. All the fluff I have seen just said they created multiple clones. Without any additional info all we can tell is they managed to make anothe Horus, not a horus without a soul.

And what proof do you have that they have? Those clones would very easily be brain dead for all we know.

Soulless is not the same as brain dead, look at the nulls.

I think it's likely that the clones that they created were flawed. Remember that the techology behind the creation of the Space Marines is not completely understood. That's how you get things like the cursed founding, the various flaws in geneseed that haven't been fixed, and the godawful kludge that is the creation process for Chaos Space Marines. Now think how much more complex a primarch is than a regular marine. Not to mention that a Space Marine simply builds and improves on an existing human, one that already has a soul, mind, and personality. A primarch is scratch built using knowledge from the dark age of technology and potentially including arcane warp craft. You really think that a ragtag bunch of traitor marines could just clone something like that, as one would a cutting from a plant?

The soul in the sense is the spark that controls all of the body and doesn't make it a mindless husk. The soul is essential. If you don't have the soul you don't have anything just a body that lacks any reason and is comparable to a zombie except primarch form which is alot worse.

Abaddon is rumoured to be a clone of Horus. So sibling jealously there.

My view is Abaddon thinks Horus was weak, as Horus repents to the Emperor before his death. Abaddon probably heard or saw this and therefore got emotional when Horus betrayed the new vision they had fought for.

All Abaddon's fluff suggests he is more fighter than thinker.

So to summarize he isnt going to do it even if he could.

Coa- When it says a clone is created it would suggest that they were successful clones. If we take the ridiculous idea that unless something is specifically explained to be precisedly one way then it is the other none of GWs fluff means anything. It is reasonable to assume from the phrase that the comment that they worked. Taking your example I could say the UM worship Gork since it never says they don't even though it's completely reasonable to assume they do not.

Why would Abaddon waste time and soldiers in a war with the EC over clones that aren't even alive?

4M2A wrote:Why would Abaddon waste time and soldiers in a war with the EC over clones that aren't even alive?

Because he wouldn't necessarily know if they were or not, and because of the inherent insult in it (as well as the fact that he wouldn't have know whether or not it was ultimately possible for Horus to be successfully cloned.

If Horus was successfully cloned, the question arises as to why the clones were incapable of defending themselves. Even as children, the Primarchs were capable of defending themselves against various threats. We really don't know enough about what happened or how successful they were.

Isn't thier a tiny bit of Horus in all of them and would should be able to clone his body from that.

Polvilhovoador wrote:It would be good if a villain like Horus came back and could actually do some damage to the Imperium.

As nice as this sounds, the imperium has way to much plot armour for an invasion force of any size/magnitude to be effective. Heck, all of the non imperium factions could team up against the imperium and GW would write a story where Marinus Calgar single-handedly saves the day.

4M2A wrote:Coa- When it says a clone is created it would suggest that they were successful clones. If we take the ridiculous idea that unless something is specifically explained to be precisedly one way then it is the other none of GWs fluff means anything. It is reasonable to assume from the phrase that the comment that they worked. Taking your example I could say the UM worship Gork since it never says they don't even though it's completely reasonable to assume they do not.

I didn't say that did't successfully cloned Horus, they did. What I am trying to say that they can't clone souls since the soul is unique for every individual + it's not a material thing.

All arguments aside as to whether he could "actually" be cloned and brought back, what is to say he would come back as the Horus the traitors all knew and followed? This whole discussion got me thinking that depending on where the original sample came from, and/or depending on what sort effect his final confrontation had with the Emperor, what if the Horus cells used to create the clone were "purified" somehow.

What if they got the Horus before he was tainted? That would be pretty funny if instead of getting their ultimate commnader they instead delvered a "new" Primarch to help guide the Imperium. Would be an interesting plot twist, and Abbadon would blow his topknot.

Abbadons big daddy now why give that up. Anyway chaos teaches us to be selfish and self obssesed.

The old Horus that everyone knows is dead and gone body and soul. If one could find a dna trace to replicate they could feesibly create a new Horus body but the soul and mind will be different, it is life experience that makes a man who he is and the new Horus would not have the same life as the old thus opening a million different routes for this Horus to take and shape his life with.
He could be good or bad or tell everyone to sod-off and walk away.

Hialmar wrote:All arguments aside as to whether he could "actually" be cloned and brought back, what is to say he would come back as the Horus the traitors all knew and followed? This whole discussion got me thinking that depending on where the original sample came from, and/or depending on what sort effect his final confrontation had with the Emperor, what if the Horus cells used to create the clone were "purified" somehow.

What if they got the Horus before he was tainted? That would be pretty funny if instead of getting their ultimate commnader they instead delvered a "new" Primarch to help guide the Imperium. Would be an interesting plot twist, and Abbadon would blow his topknot.

Abbadon would go depressed...again.


cheers to all comments

so really my thought was a battle between scince and magic...ok so lord phases out my thought was this.

my thought: Abbadon plunges his daemon sword into the hearty of the lord and the daemon trys to become a life-support system to keep the lord from phasing out, for enough time for Abbadon to grab the orb and he could have used his daemonic powers as a life suport machine for the orb for enough time to get to the warp and while Abbadon was working he would have alredy contacted the gods and asked for permission to give some power to the orb form direct contact of warp energy.

now i know that it wouldnt happen because he is too selfish even thogh it says in the codex that he was completely loyal to horus and got depressed when he was killed.

cheers to all comments

happygolucky wrote:

Hialmar wrote:All arguments aside as to whether he could "actually" be cloned and brought back, what is to say he would come back as the Horus the traitors all knew and followed? This whole discussion got me thinking that depending on where the original sample came from, and/or depending on what sort effect his final confrontation had with the Emperor, what if the Horus cells used to create the clone were "purified" somehow.

What if they got the Horus before he was tainted? That would be pretty funny if instead of getting their ultimate commnader they instead delvered a "new" Primarch to help guide the Imperium. Would be an interesting plot twist, and Abbadon would blow his topknot.

Abbadon would go depressed...again.


cheers to all comments

so really my thought was a battle between scince and magic...ok so lord phases out my thought was this.

my thought: Abbadon plunges his daemon sword into the hearty of the lord and the daemon trys to become a life-support system to keep the lord from phasing out, for enough time for Abbadon to grab the orb and he could have used his daemonic powers as a life suport machine for the orb for enough time to get to the warp and while Abbadon was working he would have alredy contacted the gods and asked for permission to give some power to the orb form direct contact of warp energy.

now i know that it wouldnt happen because he is too selfish even thogh it says in the codex that he was completely loyal to horus and got depressed when he was killed.

cheers to all comments

Even if you took the orb from the dead lord before it phased out the orb itself would still phase out.

even with daemonic energys acting as life support system?

happygolucky wrote:even with daemonic energys acting as life support system?

I don't know how demonic energy can act as life support, but it doesn't matter as still living Necrons phase out as well.

ok then

Horus's body was destroyed after the whole cloning incident, Abaddon is a lot more bad ass than people give him credit though. In either the 4.0 Chaos dex or Eye of Terror there's a quote stating he has refused Daemon hood multiple times that his plans involve something far more grandeur. I don't really understand why people give him so much crap, if he actually succeeds the background is going to get super dull real quick when the whole "Chaos has won and now their is nothingness" sets in. For the OP though no they would need some form of genetic material to clone him and there is no way Abaddon would be down with that, despite the novel execution hour depicting him "reminiscing" about hanging out with Horus while virus bombing Istvaan.

(In the Chaos, the inky blackness stirs unto reality as a long forgotten DNA sample stored in cryo-freeze for 10,000 years. The powers of Chaos gives life to this DNA and the bio-mass stirs and grows into life. A few moments in time and a fetal like image appears and cries its first breath, as the nwe life is born, growing rapidly with the help of Dark Powers. Time goes by as the small form rapidly grows into adulthood and stands, roaring his triumpant return is a Man God named Hurus. The foul powers grant this pathetic human for curpted armor and arms for his future purpose, the downfall of the Empire of man. This mighty figure strolls into darkness to find his most favored of followers Abbadon the Dispoiler, startling the mighty leader).

Horus: Abbadon! My most loyal servant!...I Horus your Master has returned!

Abbadon: Not again! You were destroyed long ago by your own master! Cursed to forever fail in eternal darkness!

Horus: My Son? I have come to lead you against the Emperium?

(drawing Drach'nyen in one swift fast motion and stabbing it into the face of Horus twisting the deamon blade left and right tearing the soft brain tissue apart, a silent hiss is heard as Horus falls to the floor. Brain matter and blood leaking onto the floor pooling about Abbadons feet)

Abbadon: Horus you have failed the powers before and you paid with your life....Yet you come to me expecting me to follow you unto failure again. I think not, I lead the Black Legion to victory upon victory, while you have done nothing but be forgotten as the failure you have always been!

(Abbadon walks away from the twitching remains of Horus drying his sword upon his cloak).

Abbadon: I bet Fabius Bile had something to do with Horus's return? I think a visit is in mind! Followed by a reminder of who is in charge here!....

(The scene fades to black).

Brother Coa wrote:

Nicholas wrote:They don't need Horus they need one of the Demon Primarch's to get off their ass, heck I would be satisfied with Angron

He had his butt kicked on Armageddon, and the others would get no better treatment than Mortarion who had his heart violated.

FYI, Magnus took his entire legion to the Fang and got wacked by 100 SW, Dreadnoughts and PDF (or the Fenris equivalent).

Ok I know the answer to the question here.

After horus was defeated by the emperor and his soul was shattered into oblivion the sons of horus fled with the rest of the traitor legions to the eye of terror. During the retreat Abbaddon ripped Horus's talon off his body so no one could claim his primarchs favour.

During the period before abbaddon became the true warmaster the sons of horus were preyed upon by the other legions being seen as weak and leaderless. The fortress the sons built on their new world was built over the grave of horus and after the emperors children attacked and stole the body the legion turned to Abbaddon.

Abbaddon turned the sons of horus away from their reverance of their primarch and ordered the legion to paint their armour black, becoming the black legion. The new warmaster then lead the legion against the emperors children destroying the primarchs body and the clones they were creating.

so basically NO Abbaddon would never EVER think about bringing Horus back from the dead because

a) The legion has moved on

b) Abbaddon hates horus for failing

and c) Abbaddon fears Horus would take back what abbaddon has