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TrollPie wrote:Ninja'd Zweischneid. By half an hour.

Some things need to be seen more than once to be believed!

Fairfeldia wrote:na whiteshield can be used, for example if you have a few spare points lying around, and 3 50 man units of them with chenkov in a game of apoc

i don't see whats wrong with the techpriest, yes they can be a bit clumsy and they are expensive, but it does essentially allow you to take a couple of heavy bolters and a melti melta whilst running around repairing vechiles

Conscripts are terrible because for 1 point more you get Guardsmen who have equipment options, commissars, and better BS and LD. Techpriests are bad because they use up an elites slot (a bigger deal with techmarines) are unreliable, and they don't "allow you to take a couple of heavy bolters and a multi melta whilst running around" because if you leave those expensive servitors alone they have a 50% chance of literally doing nothing that turn.

TrollPie wrote:What about Nork? 110 points for a T3 model, who's supposed to protect a model that costs one tenth of his price? Not to mention he's shakey at best in close combat and at range.
Oh, and Mogul Kamir.

He's T5, good in close combat (for IG) and not so hot at range. His rules aren't terrible but his points are about twice as high as they should be. Mogul I won't disagree with, since you generally don't want Rage.

Wow. Dakkadakka has dissapointed me.

So you guys would rather take chaos spawns than pope.

Spawn: Costs as much as a terminator, cannot deep strike or have transport, slow and purposeful, must footslog from your deployment zone, costs as much as a terminator, T5 3 wounds no saves, costs as much as a terminator, counts as cavalry (which would be good except cavalry gets double charge distance not move distance), too slow to synergize with ANY army in 40k

Aun'va: costs the same as 5 chaos spawns, toughness 5 with re-rollable 4+ cover save, counterattack, dies like a biznatch to S6 weapons, gives everyone preferred enemy and furious charge when dead (not rage), doesn't synergize with tau unless you're doing a pulse carbine lolrmy (not a bonus), LOS based stubborn bubble

Considering that aun'va at least fills a required FOC, I see even less reason to take spawns than aun'va.

EDIT: and for the purposes of killpoints, at least aun'va can go to ground for a 3+ rerollable cover

Brother SRM wrote:

TrollPie wrote:What about Nork? 110 points for a T3 model, who's supposed to protect a model that costs one tenth of his price? Not to mention he's shakey at best in close combat and at range.
Oh, and Mogul Kamir.

He's T5, good in close combat (for IG) and not so hot at range. His rules aren't terrible but his points are about twice as high as they should be. Mogul I won't disagree with, since you generally don't want Rage.

He's part of a T3 squad.

Space Pope wins here sorry. Look at it this way. I think he may be the only model in the game that can cause your entire army to flee off the board. It's possibly to loose one model turn one, and have your entire force flee off the table before you even get a chance to have a turn.

I used to think the pyrovore was the worst option, but then I found Tau's Space Pope...

At least the pyrovore can be useful (not amazing or even desired, but not a useless lump) if you drop-pod them. But the Space Pope? 205 pts of ID waiting to get a Long Fang squad or two to drop templates on his noggin. Plus, the I3 (Making them slower than most, if not all, common dedicated assault troops) melee-only bodyguards are a joke.

As for the Spawn, I haven't used or seen them, so I have no opinion there.

Melchiour wrote:Space Pope wins here sorry. Look at it this way. I think he may be the only model in the game that costs 205 points and doesn't benefit your army muchthat can cause your entire army to flee off the board. It's possibly to loose one model turn one, and have your entire force flee off the table before you even get a chance to have a turn.

Fixed. Any Ethereal can do that, but the Space Pope doesn't even give you re-rollable leadership to anyone in LOS and costs about 4 times as much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkPrince010 wrote:I used to think the pyrovore was the worst option, but then I found Tau's Space Pope...

At least the pyrovore can be useful (not amazing or even desired, but not a useless lump) if you drop-pod them. But the Space Pope? 205 pts of ID waiting to get a Long Fang squad or two to drop templates on his noggin. Plus, the I3 (Making them slower than most, if not all, common dedicated assault troops) melee-only bodyguards are a joke.

As for the Spawn, I haven't used or seen them, so I have no opinion there.

Not to mention the SP himself is weapon skill and initiative one. Close combat unit? Nah, purple/blue stain.

Melchiour wrote:Space Pope wins here sorry. Look at it this way. I think he may be the only model in the game that can cause your entire army to flee off the board. It's possibly to loose one model turn one, and have your entire force flee off the table before you even get a chance to have a turn.

That might've been a problem if Tau didn't have marine leadership everywhere. If you're afraid of him dying, just go to ground somewhere and let him voluntarily be useless for ~200 points in a tower somewhere for army wide stubborn. Keyword voluntarily. I'm seeing useless from a perspective of "Ok you're forced to take this unit. Now wtf are you going to do with it? Can you do anything with it?"

terranarc wrote:Considering that aun'va at least fills a required FOC, I see even less reason to take spawns than aun'va.

The problem is crisis commanders are a 1+ choice. So you already automatically have that FOC slot filled. Plus, a crisis commander is 25 points base, and usually won't go over 100. So that argument is null anyway. Spawn are at least useful with that power that turns an enemy unit into a spawn (i forget the name). That causes some havoc, and at least will kill something.

I don't disagree with Aun'va, but I offer a very close second IN THE SAME BOOK.

Vespid.

They do shooting well...sorta. Their guns have AP3 and str5! But they are 12", and single shot...
They do assault well...sorta. They are jump infantry with fleet, reroll dangerous terrain and have I5! But they have WS3 and 1 attack base (and no PW)...

Overall, they don't do anything well, cost as much as a marine, and have LD 6 without their expensive Sargent upgrade.

I'm surpsied that no one has mentioned Repentia yet. They can't do anything. They're not Space Pope bad, but they're easily Pyrovore bad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm surpsied that no one has mentioned Repentia yet. They can't do anything. They're not Space Pope bad, but they're easily Pyrovore bad.

someone did a while back. Why are they so bad?

PraetorDave wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm surpsied that no one has mentioned Repentia yet. They can't do anything. They're not Space Pope bad, but they're easily Pyrovore bad.

someone did a while back. Why are they so bad?

Rage effect, no transports (as in, special rule meaning they can't use them), I1, T3 and starting at 210 points for 9 with a Mistress. Largely, Witch Hunters players viewed them as a wasteful point sink - they were meant to be attractive by the fact they're basically S3(6) Chainfist wielders, but the 20 point price tag per Repentia, coupled with the 4+ save, were too much for most of us to seriously consider once you factored in the necessary footslogging and the fact that you couldn't choose their target, your enemy largely chose it for you.

I'd agree that the Tau Space Pope tops the list of least effective units. As a Sisters of Battle player, I'd put old Celestine as a notable mention - a model we all own and convert to have a pair of angelic wings, only for her to sit on the shelf unused. Over 200 points for a T3 IC who, on death, had a random effect that could take all of your army's Faith Points and prevent you generating any new ones.

Should be noted that both Repentia and St. Celestine as discussed are in terms of Codex: Witch Hunters. We still don't have the full picture, including points costs, for the new Codex: Sister of Battle.

Man, and I thought Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles were bad!

At least they're a cheap Troops choice and can ACTUALLy do some things... Also they're only 75 points per squad...

Patting myself on the back for playing Marines, so I don't have the option of mistakenly buying such crap models

Mandrakes, a really cool looking model, and they pack a nasty ability that would eat infantry alive. . . but you cant use that until they kill something, and you need that ability to kill ANYTHING with that unit. Also, they have no survivablility until they kill something, and im not wasting my Haemy's Pain token on a squad of mandrakes when i have wyches that have some slaughtering to do.

i think its that tau guy in the big chair. he has no use whatsoever

Ridealgh wrote:i think its that tau guy in the big chair. he has no use whatsoever

He's good if you gotta park that huge tank. I think I'd seen a Hammerhead driver borrow his Handicap placard to park in a blue spot right by a store's front doors.


Seriously, while everyone has brought up other units, Mandrakes, Spawn, Vespid, Pariahs, Pyrovores ... you gotta realize that any of these *can* kill 3 stray MEqs. Maybe even a whole Combat Squad. Really.

Aun'va? He and his two nursemaids pretty much won't kill anything. Take a few minutes and MathHammer it.

I like this:

Mythal wrote:As a Sisters of Battle player, I'd put old Celestine as a notable mention

"Honorable mentions". The "Crown of Worst" clearly belongs to the Space Pope, but "honorable mentions" have a place in threads like this.

Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Repentia, St. "no more special fun powers" Celestine, Penitent Engines, Space Pope, Ethereals and Sniper Scouts in my opinion in no real particular order.

At least three of the above have a chance of becoming better soonish.

thenoobbomb wrote:Flashgitz.
25 points per model.
Dudes with awsome guns, BS 2.
Yeah.

And yet when used correctly, they DO kick the asses of MEQs everywhere. The only problem with them is you can get better shooting results for less with Lootas.

I really do think my grots are pointless lol. Except for maybe holding out on an objective.

Anidem wrote:Mandrakes, a really cool looking model, and they pack a nasty ability that would eat infantry alive. . . but you cant use that until they kill something, and you need that ability to kill ANYTHING with that unit. Also, they have no survivablility until they kill something, and im not wasting my Haemy's Pain token on a squad of mandrakes when i have wyches that have some slaughtering to do.

They work quite well webwayed in with a Cronos Parasite Engine, although that does mean spending about 200 points altogether in order to have one working unit. However, for 200 points they work, whereas Aun'va costs much the same and doesn't.

Although I do agree, they rather suck. Shame considering their models are really nice.

I find it rather unfortunate how people who are very inexperienced buy a random model that they think looks really cool, and over-rely on him/her, but then suddenly realize it's actually BAD... I mean, it's good for fluff-based/APOC, but otherwise, I will salute anyone who purposefully mixes lists to put bad stuff in!

An'vu. Any unit that forces the entire army to take a leadership test when it dies , and not having any real combat ability, seems to be the least effective.

Ratlings. They are only somewhat good against monstrous creatures. LD 6 also ensures that when they take a single wound=RUN FOR YOUR MISERABLE LIVES!!11!

Ork boyz and gretchins

black templar wrote:Ork boyz and gretchins

Ork Boyz aren't effective?

You've never played them then.

Point a squad of Boyz with sluggas at Terminators, watch the Termies disappear.

The Chaos spawn as a selection in itself is BAD, but having the model is at least useful for "Gift of Chaos" psychic power.
The Space pope is the worst, no contest, he isn't even well-modelled enough to be a display piece, if you ask me.

Swooping Hawks. The models seem to be there for stun blocking and bombing, but they are way too expensive. War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are better, and can kill troops.

And also, gay-space-elves-with-wings? Whose stupid idea was that!

I'm still recovering from a horrible mathhammer calculation from when I considered them.

Small, Far Away wrote:Swooping Hawks. The models seem to be there for stun blocking and bombing, but they are way too expensive. War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are better, and can kill troops.

And also, gay-space-elves-with-wings? Whose stupid idea was that!

I'm still recovering from a horrible mathhammer calculation from when I considered them.

Nuff said.