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Cheese is the unimaginative use of the rules to make the same army as everyone else... Like spam.

while they may not be well made or very interesting lists of army comp.,cheese is legal and he makes the discision of what he puts forth to be fought/slaughtered.

but if your one of those players who vomits forth 3 monolithes at 2000pts or 9 carnifexes/LR,just stop.there annoying and really lowers peoples opinion of you.

Purifiers Spam =
These people are the ones giving the GK's a bad name


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But just because Imperial Fists are yellow dosnt mean they =

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:Cheese to me would be taking advantage of rule wordings or stretching the rules. For example, I played an IG player who put his guys in a "checkered formation". there are two squads and the numbers represent soldiers from these squads. Technicly half the squad is obscured for both of them, so they both get a 4+ cover save even though they are in the open.
1111122222
2222211111

Just an FYI: GW fixed this issue in the FAQ. It is no longer a valid strategy.

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:My 500 point army

2 Deff dreads w/ 2 KMB ea,
SAG Mek,
KFF Mek,
Killa kan w/KMB

fill the deficit with options, starting with grot riggers, then plates, than whatever else.

Not that cheesy, would potentially come unstuck against any player that takes plasma/melta (which even at 500pts is quite common) or more than one missile launcher or power fists or tanks (so thats eldar, sm, csm, guard). Also, unless you kill ALL the opponents troops you insta-lose any objectives games (as vehicles can never claim objectives, even if they are troop choices).

However, you have piqued my interest, and I would like to play this list now, just to see how it does!

Cheese and tomato pizza with extra cheese. Of course cheese is good unless you don't like the taste.

cheese if fine if both people are using cheese lists. I bring fun armies but bring serious lists if somebody wants a challange I'll provide it with a battlewagon bash or kan wall.

that said it irks me when i teach somebody the game and they have faced fluff lists with thier limited models and somebody comes in a smasheds them with a tournament list they copy and pasted from the net... I've seen the DE Dash of Pepper list a few times thrown down on a new player on his 3rd game... that was cruel.... but the player wasn't as good so with some advice he won with tau (he liked that they looked like gundams... wierd anime kid but nice guy)

Slarg232 wrote:

jacetms87 wrote:Cheese will be a term, that a person will use who wished to take bad units, call them "fluffy" then wish take the blame off of them seleves for ineffective army composition, rather than face the fact there are units just better than others.

You can't tell me half of the "power lists" are A) Fun to use, B) Tactically flexible, and C) Just better than the others.

People who rely on those spammy lists (like the Fzorgle CSM lists....) make me puke!

I can telll you that those "power lists" are fun to use, just because you do not like them does not mean that they are not valid, they are within the rules so why should you not take them? There is no social contract between you and your opponent, if its not the way you want to play thats great but dont think yourself better than someone else becasue you took a "fluffy" army.

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Not that cheesy, would potentially come unstuck against any player that takes plasma/melta (which even at 500pts is quite common) or more than one missile launcher or power fists or tanks (so thats eldar, sm, csm, guard). Also, unless you kill ALL the opponents troops you insta-lose any objectives games (as vehicles can never claim objectives, even if they are troop choices).

However, you have piqued my interest, and I would like to play this list now, just to see how it does!

first time i played it, i barely won against a Vanilla marine army that had been forewarned that "plasma will be your friend" had he not been given this advice, i would have rolled all over him.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Generally any list that spams any one unit and over and over again, such as a Marine army with 6 lascannon/twin linked plasma gun razorbacks each with a 5 man squad of Marines with a powerfist and combi melta with 3 squads of TH/SS Terminators and some token HQ. Alternately, the mechvet Guard army with just veteran guardsmen with 3 meltas each, two company command squads with 4 meltas each, all loaded in Chimeras or Vendettas, with as many points put into Vendettas as possible.

Gotcha, legal armies are now "cheesy".

Yes that is exactly what he is saying. Venoms anyone? I guess I like different units to be considered cheesy...

Crystal-Maze wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:This:

Someone has too much time on his hands when you start making Warhammer minis out of food products

Being a proffesional cake decorator, I beg to differ. Rhino cakes are awesome

Rhino you said?

Kroothawk wrote:This:

hahaha thats awesome!

What is cheese? Cheese is when someone takes advantage of a balance hole made by GW either due to a lack of playtesting, some kind of behind closed door deal, matt ward or marketing strategy.

Something that people don't realize is that usually bad and or rich players take cheese lists.
One example being the theoretical long fang/razorback spam. Good lucky buying all those models for one list.

What makes it cheesy, however, is the fact that if a GOOD player got his hands on that list and played another equally good player who's using a balanced list, the spam list will probably win or have a huge legs up the entire game.

To be fair, list building is as part of 40k as painting, modeling and actual gaming. This issue is just sportsmanship as "cheese" lists are usually WAAC list and WAAC is something looked down upon in a hobby based around having fun. If you disagree, you're either 12-16 or "that" guy no one really likes. Yeah that sounds full of prejudice but these are one of those I'm fine with that.

What people have to realize that 40k is:
Not balanced - No 2 codicies are equal and neither are dice. For a game based on luck and the whim of "authors" like mat ward, balance is a luxury.
Fluff based - The driving force behind 40k or any miniature hobby, in my opinion, is fluff. Personally I play armies because they make the child inside me go "OMFG THATS SO KEWL" and because the fluff is at least half interesting.

By the same idea, there's technically nothing wrong with someone playing an army purely to win in order to satisfy his own primitive adversarial urge [to compensate for other deficiencies in his life](yes I know someone who's in this exact scenario)
So the bigger issue being should you hate someone who runs cheese lists? Why bother? Just don't play with him and let him waste a few grands on a GW army no one wants to play against. Yes he can run a min/max 15 longfang list at 1000 points if he wants but there will be a cost for doing so beyond the game itself.

Hm.. this rant has been poorly organized and written. Oh well, hope I got my point across anyway.

Long Fangs.

i find cheese annoying but accep it if it is leagl army list.

you can't say,you can't use those 3 monolithes because i cant harm them with my all infantry IG with 1 melta

Deadshot wrote: i find cheese annoying but accep it if it is leagl army list.

you can't say,you can't use those 3 monolithes because i cant harm them with my all infantry IG with 1 melta

and your 1 melta would also only get one dice for armour pen against monolith, cause monolith is ok but 3 is kinda

If an army is legal there is no reason you should not take a specific army build if you want to. If you want to play a fluffy army go ahead, however this is very limiting for some armies and tier owners may like to win occasionally. It all depends on what is fun for you. I honestly belive that when people use the term "cheese" they are seeing an army build that differs from what they belive the game should be and as such have to demean it in some way.

A cheese list is where someone takes 5 land raiders(3 HS,1 DT for Termies,1 DT for assault termies)and a libby,and 2 5 man tac squads and faces an all lasgun infantry force with only 1 ML between them,it's not fair,but if it's legal you have to be slaughtered or concede.

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Deadshot wrote: i find cheese annoying but accep it if it is leagl army list.

you can't say,you can't use those 3 monolithes because i cant harm them with my all infantry IG with 1 melta

and your 1 melta would also only get one dice for armour pen against monolith, cause monolith is ok but 3 is kinda

QQ

Monster Rain wrote:I see those spammy lists and usually think that this person isn't a very good player.

It's a balanced list across the table that worries me.

If someone is spamming unbalanced units, they're going to lose.

Perhaps you and I differ on our opinion of what "balanced" means. I think of it as the ability to deal with many types of threats.

Anything your opponent does not like, did not explect/plan for, or cannot deal with is cheese.
Generally this is because they were also aiming for cheese but you did it better.

Switch "your opponent" with "you" if you are think it relevant and are so inclined/honest.

/shrug

A cheese list is one that beats me! To be honest as far as I'm concerned it involves ignoring the background and/or selecting units that deliberately take advantage of loopholes in the rules (i.e. taking a tailored Nob Squad with each having different weapons, I have no problems with taking a varied squad but putting in stickbombs or a Kombi-Weapon to take advantage of wound allocation ticks me off).

Cheese is what a weak player calls superior methods of play that he does not understand. In games with tighter rulesets such as Magic the Gathering, you can extend the definition to include 'any rule that weak players hate.'

In game systems with noncompetitive rulesets like Warhams, then it is less clear, but I'd say it's deliberately looking to play a non-tournament game at a higher level of competitiveness than your opponent. For example, if you bring a tightly-tuned melta/plasma vet spam to a store's open gaming night that has mostly guys with battleforce armies, it's cheese, but it's not if you're playing the GT-list darklight/splinterspam guy.

In tight rulesets, there is no cheese, only dominant strategic options.

Complaining about cheesey lists is just a bad player's excuse to brand a player as unsportsman-like and go complain about butthurt over it on the internet.

As long as a game is unbalanced in any way, there is always going to be options that are more powerful than everything else, and there will be lists that use them in mass. While obvious complaining about it will never solve the problem, you cannot believe that the complaints aren't valid.