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What are these rules and where did they come from?

5th edition. Came from Games Workshop.

Making its points back is no longer considered relevant in most circles as victory points are no longer a part of the game, whilst objectives are the most important thing in most games. This is also effected by the number of force multipliers in modern 40K.

I have never seen a Daemon army played, and the codex has not arrived yet, but I did pick some up as my reward for placing in the Ard Boyz tourney. So guess I will start a Daemon army.

Can someone answer me this, Are Soul Grinders also Daemons, as I was under the impression that everything in the codex has Daemon special rule, thus giving the Soul Grinder a 4+ Invuln save?

Just Dave wrote:5th edition. Came from Games Workshop.

Making its points back is no longer considered relevant in most circles as victory points are no longer a part of the game, whilst objectives are the most important thing in most games. This is also effected by the number of force multipliers in modern 40K.

Oh VP.That is the stupidest rule ever.Thing shouldn't be trying to earn the points they cost,they should be focusing on the objectives at ahnd,whether that is shielding a unit,or blowing upthe tanks.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
Can someone answer me this, Are Soul Grinders also Daemons, as I was under the impression that everything in the codex has Daemon special rule, thus giving the Soul Grinder a 4+ Invuln save?

They are daemons, but daemons have no such rule giving them a 4+ Invulnerable save.

DakkaDakka wrote:

@Darkness,

Fair enough, I had no idea, but they do get the invuln save like everything else in codex still?

@Shadowseer_Kim

No, Soul Grinders do not have an invuln save. The Daemon special rule, in respect to invuln saves, only means that if a generic save is listed in their stat block it is invuln. The Soul Grinder, being a vehicle, does not have a save listed at all, instead it just gets its 13, 13, 11 AVs.

Thanks Avatar, good to know for looking at models to build the new army.

I only read through part of the page, so forgive me if I missed it, but Flamers were never covered in the elite section. Take 3 at a little over 100pts and suicide squad them right next to your opponents nastiest unit (termies are promising). If you scatter bad, you lost 100 pts. If you don't scatter, your opponent lost 200+ points. Worth it? Yes. Very. They're awesome, and deserve recognition. I'll also chime in with my expected "Slaanesh Princes are awesome if you use them correctly, even if they are expensive." See other threads for what I mean though-I don't want the "Lord of Perverts" haters to come down on me again for recommending Slaanesh Princes

@ FuryTheBerserker, Puscifer, Shrubs, whigwam, Just Dave

Thnx mates, glad to know my efforts are appreciated.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Cilithan wrote:
Fiends – The best choice in the Codex. Use 5-6, give Might if you have the points. Use range on deepstrike to give them cover / LoS blockers. Then use their incredible range to put pressure on either flank.

Is making one guy one point stronger ever worth it?

As far as Im concerned it is worth it. If you need to spare points however, you can do without. The 10 points are justified by the fact that one model has S6, but also by the fact that you have 1 complex model in the unit. Which means you can suffer 2 wounds without loosing a model. Since that model strikes at relatively high initiative and has 6 attack on the charge, it can be worth it to have 1 complex model.

In regards to the high cost of Fiends of Slaanesh: I've converted mine using Tyranid Warriors and Dark Eldar Reaver bikes and some bits from Necron Destroyers. My reasoning is my deeprooted hatred for al models not plastic, but cost is another reason to concert your Fiends :-)

whigwam wrote:I noticed the DP with MoK wasn't mentioned...is he just not worth it compared to the other Prince options? Seems like an extra attack would be worth it when most every attack will kill...not to mention the usefulness of BotBG against GK.

Sure it's usable. I didn't mention it because I feel 15 points is rather steap for an extra attack. With Nurgle you gain a toughness, with Tzeentch an extra shooting attack and with Slaanesh you gain acces to Pavane, which is usefull. However, you have a point that with the advent of the Grey Knights BotBG can be worth the investment, although 10 points for BotBG is rather pricy as well...

195 Prince, MoK, IH, BotBG, Flight or
135 Prince, MoK, IH, BotBG (this option is less usefull because it lacks speed - something that isn't that important with the Slaanesh Prince because of Pavane or the Tzeentch Prince because of its abilities to deal ranged damage).

These Princes would be acceptable IMO. Adding Might or something would make it too costly given that it is still T5.

Cilithan

Puscifer wrote:That info is truly epic. Thank you very much.

So for transports the old Rumble and Frenzy tactic of "First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why is Fateweaver so special? I just don't see why he's so good.

Oh my CRASSIUS ASSAULT ARMOURED TRANSPORT !!!!

I just saw that film (again) yesterday...

Ultimate deja vu


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
Bloodletters -> when placed correctly, usually earn their points back
Daemonettes -> usually do not earn their points back, can shine in specific situations

I thought we were assuming the current edition of rules where a unit "making its points back" is entirely irrelevant.

As a figure of speech, it is very relevant.
I was paraphrasing the longer term, "the unit usually is worth the amount of points that you put into it, by redeeming itself through either Kill Points, or objective capture/denial/neutralizing."

Now, if you have something to respond to, in regards to my opinions on Daemonettes usefulness as opposed to that of Bloodletters, fire away.

Im gonna try:

If your feeling chancy with bloodletters let them deploy wherever you want then (if you have plaguebearers) place them as a meat shield for your deamonettes (instead of your bloodthirsters) then, on the next turn assault away (they have rending which is very nice complemented with how many attacks they can have).

Thats a good tactic is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

timetowaste85 wrote:I only read through part of the page, so forgive me if I missed it, but Flamers were never covered in the elite section. Take 3 at a little over 100pts and suicide squad them right next to your opponents nastiest unit (termies are promising). If you scatter bad, you lost 100 pts. If you don't scatter, your opponent lost 200+ points. Worth it? Yes. Very. They're awesome, and deserve recognition. I'll also chime in with my expected "Slaanesh Princes are awesome if you use them correctly, even if they are expensive." See other threads for what I mean though-I don't want the "Lord of Perverts" haters to come down on me again for recommending Slaanesh Princes

What about screamers (flamers are good as you get no cover save against them but screamers have meltabombs standard...and move 12").

DakkaDakka wrote:

IMO it's a bit harsh to describe Deamonettes as "subpar" because they die to bolter fire-so do Bloodletters. I conceede that you only need about 5 Bloodletters to survive to wreck havok, but still...I guess it's a moot point.

Screening with PB's works well most of the time if you need extra cover, but I'm undecided if they should be taken just for this reason. You can do the same thing with Beasts of Nurgle, Greater Deamons, Soul Grinders...a bit like how Necron players hide warriors behind Monoliths.

10 Rapid Firing Marines vs:

Bloodletters
20 shots, 13.2 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead Bloodletters

Daemonettes
20 shots, 13.2 hits, 8.7 wounds, 5.7 dead Daemonettes

Conclusion:

Both Bloodletters and Daemonettes die in droves to bolterfire. The picture above is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Daemonettes cost 2 points less per model and can generally be deployed (via DS) somewhat further away because of the Fleet special rule, thus – maybe, sometimes – just outside of RF range.

Personally, I don’t think the difference between the two units is that big. Both are good. Sure S5 on the charge+powerweapon is mighty, but failing to get the charge because you lack fleet is devastating. The extra range on the Daemonettes (and Frag grenades) is rather important in a Daemons list.

If you’re not too much of a fluff-adept I’d use both together.

Cilithan

DakkaDakka wrote:

Hey Che-Vito,

I agree with you that the Fast attack options are not to be overlooked. I think Seekers (and Flesh Hounds) are great and well worth their points. With Daemons it's hard (for me) to take care of the troopschoices with so many good options in the other slots. Thats the only (and relatively big) advantage of Daemonettes over Seekers: they score.

Mostly a preference thing I guess, Daemonettes of Bloodletters and Hounds over Seekers. All these units have their merits and uses, the difference in quality (to me) isn't all that big.

Cilithan

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Cilithan wrote:Hey Che-Vito,

I agree with you that the Fast attack options are not to be overlooked. I think Seekers (and Flesh Hounds) are great and well worth their points. With Daemons it's hard (for me) to take care of the troopschoices with so many good options in the other slots. Thats the only (and relatively big) advantage of Daemonettes over Seekers: they score.

Mostly a preference thing I guess, Daemonettes of Bloodletters and Hounds over Seekers. All these units have their merits and uses, the difference in quality (to me) isn't all that big.

Cilithan

I personally can't stand the Hounds. They don't get anything special for their cost! (aka, they get the same movement as Daemonettes, but no Rending. For the Seekers, that is a big sell for me...in addition to volume of attacks.)

Incorrect; Hounds are Beasts. Thus, your pretty much paying the same cost as Fiends for 1 less base WS/str, but you get FC and more attacks. 2 hounds cost the same as 1 fiend, and are BASICALLY the same thing.

Clithan pretty much posted a great tactica. I posted a tactica as well, just poorly formatted lol...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Daemons_101

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Zid wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Cilithan wrote:Hey Che-Vito,

I agree with you that the Fast attack options are not to be overlooked. I think Seekers (and Flesh Hounds) are great and well worth their points. With Daemons it's hard (for me) to take care of the troopschoices with so many good options in the other slots. Thats the only (and relatively big) advantage of Daemonettes over Seekers: they score.

Mostly a preference thing I guess, Daemonettes of Bloodletters and Hounds over Seekers. All these units have their merits and uses, the difference in quality (to me) isn't all that big.

Cilithan

I'm not a fan of that Tactica. Seekers, Heralds of Slaanesh, Screamers, and Bloodletters are all underrated by the author.
The Tactica also does not reflect a player who has run into a lot of armies with massed Poison. I love my Greater Daemons, but they are very, very hit or miss depending on the opponent. One of the few things I *do* agree with in their posting, is that Soul Grinders are generally more bang for their buck than Daemon Princes.

I personally can't stand the Hounds. They don't get anything special for their cost! (aka, they get the same movement as Daemonettes, but no Rending. For the Seekers, that is a big sell for me...in addition to volume of attacks.)

Incorrect; Hounds are Beasts. Thus, your pretty much paying the same cost as Fiends for 1 less base WS/str, but you get FC and more attacks. 2 hounds cost the same as 1 fiend, and are BASICALLY the same thing.

Clithan pretty much posted a great tactica. I posted a tactica as well, just poorly formatted lol...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Daemons_101

I meant to say Seekers, my bad. I still don't like the comparison of Hounds to Seekers. Normal attacks in a Daemon army don't sit well with me.

Edit: I need to start proofreading.

I can see your point; my issue with Seekers is that they're not T4... yes, they get an assload of attacks, but I try and stay away from T3 models (especially for how much seekers cost!). I like Hounds because its only 175 pts for 15, and on the charge, they get an assload of str 5 attacks at I5. Plus being T4 they can take on hordes of things like Orcs and cause a lot of havoc with minimal causalities back. T4 is a huge boon in combat, especially with a field flooded with orc hordes and wyches. But I do see the use of seekers; on occassion I'll break out an 18 strong Daemonette unit in place of my 5 man horrors for fun lol. Its just personal preference.

Just asking the veteran Daemon players out there into which HQs would complement an all Fiends list.

h0r0 wrote:Just asking the veteran Daemon players out there into which HQs would complement an all Fiends list.

Why skarbrand would be nice )

h0r0 wrote:Just asking the veteran Daemon players out there into which HQs would complement an all Fiends list.

Fateweaver, Heralds of Tzeentch, Bloodthirster are your best bets.

Skarbrands nice; however, the loss of flying for fleet REALLY hurts him (a smart player will chump block him all day long whereas a thirster can fly over screens). The reroll for hits awesome; issue is, if your playing an army thats super survivable (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.) the rerolls to hit help your opponent more than yourself lol

Zid wrote:

h0r0 wrote:Just asking the veteran Daemon players out there into which HQs would complement an all Fiends list.

Fateweaver, Heralds of Tzeentch, Bloodthirster are your best bets.

Skarbrands nice; however, the loss of flying for fleet REALLY hurts him (a smart player will chump block him all day long whereas a thirster can fly over screens). The reroll for hits awesome; issue is, if your playing an army thats super survivable (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.) the rerolls to hit help your opponent more than yourself lol

Not if you are I6. And it is costly to chump block Skarbrand because he has Breathe of chaos, lets not forget he has dudes behind him too.

Yuber wrote:

Zid wrote:

h0r0 wrote:Just asking the veteran Daemon players out there into which HQs would complement an all Fiends list.

Fateweaver, Heralds of Tzeentch, Bloodthirster are your best bets.

Skarbrands nice; however, the loss of flying for fleet REALLY hurts him (a smart player will chump block him all day long whereas a thirster can fly over screens). The reroll for hits awesome; issue is, if your playing an army thats super survivable (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.) the rerolls to hit help your opponent more than yourself lol

Not if you are I6. And it is costly to chump block Skarbrand because he has Breathe of chaos, lets not forget he has dudes behind him too.

Trust me; I had one ENTIRE game where Skarbrand was chump blocked by 10 termagaunts 2 turns in a row (tervigon kept throwing out screens); turn 3, hiveguard all unloaded on him after fateweaver was dead... at that point I learned the cost of NOT having wings.

Also, if you fire BoC at the chump blockers you can't charge the meatier things behind them. As well, BT's get blessing; which is AWESOME vs GK.

Skarbrand is rubbish,unless you arefighting a non-combat orientated army,like Tau and Necrons.

Better to run a normal thirster.My friend likes to run a Fatecrusher list with BloodCrushers,2 Squads of 8.He takes Skulltaker and a Herald of Khorne,both on Juggernaut and the Herald has all the upgrades,join 1 of them to each squad,and support with Pink Horrors with icons.

He brings in Fateweaver and most of the Horrors.Then Next turn he brings in the 3 Soul Grinders,Bloodcrushers,and the Flesh Hounds.

Hopefully he then brings in Flamers next to the Horrors,which have hopefully got to the enemy ranks.He always runs the Changling.

Skarbrand is not 'bad,' I have played a few games benefitting from his Aura and Fiends/Seekers become very good with it. Also, rerolling your hits against vehicles is nice as well.

If he came in a little cheaper he would be worth using, I regularly use a KoS and I think I would use Skar at 250 rather than 300 points. At 300 he is just too much of an investment.

Fateweaver is game changing though and worth every penny.

If you are just starting up and want to do Fatecrusher I don't think you need DPs at all. You some anti-infantry and some anti-tank so

Fateweaver - goes without saying
2x Herald, Mot, Bolt, Breath, Master, Chariot - these guys are mini obliterators

2x 4 Bloodcrushers - icons

ALL of the above in one wave

3x 5 Plaguebearer - you could use two squads but I like three

2x Screamers - in squads of 4 and 3, when the work they are great for higher AV if not they are distraction at the least and can block tanks
10 Seekers, Bolt - great anti-infantry and good against transports

ALL of these in the second wave

That's exactly 1500 points. Now you could drop one squad of Bearers but once you begin to expand you might want to as future editions should be bolt DPs and fiends which will run 340 points. Or two DPs at 320. So out go a squad of bearers, maybe one screamer, to get to 1750 and have a decent looking force with AT and anti-infantry.

calypso2ts wrote:Skarbrand is not 'bad,' I have played a few games benefitting from his Aura and Fiends/Seekers become very good with it. Also, rerolling your hits against vehicles is nice as well.

If he came in a little cheaper he would be worth using, I regularly use a KoS and I think I would use Skar at 250 rather than 300 points. At 300 he is just too much of an investment.

Fateweaver is game changing though and worth every penny.

Exactly; Skarbrand just isn't worth the extra 50 pts over a normal BT. He can be good, but a normal BT is just so much better (and faster, and more reliable)