Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I think he was trying to get at that the models haven't been updated but the price has.

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I buy my minis because they look cool, i choose my armies because they look cool, and new techniques produces better miniatures (in general, see drakon riders...). Normally, market will price things based on the ammount of people who want that. I really think that minis who "looks cool" sell better than the one who dont. So, minis who sell powrly should be sould at lower prices somewhere. But we all know that GW prefer to stock poorly sold miniatures, instead of sell them for lower prices (or just release some overpower rules for them...).

Interesting, some time ago, Mantic made stock clearance of their elfs. They sold poorly (i think it have something to do with appearance) and Mantic guys decided to sell them for half the price...

Anyway, the outdated model produced by GW dont look cool, mantic similar one look cool, they have a BIG diference in price. If you prefer the one from GW, buy it. It will not offend me, why my preference for Mantic offend so much?

PS: Mantic Fanatics is a nice forum, we even talk about warhammer there...

12thRonin wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I think he was trying to get at that the models haven't been updated but the price has.

And that's surprising why?

They're still in production. GW doesn't leave the price on things alone simply because they're old(much to my chagrin).

Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I think he was trying to get at that the models haven't been updated but the price has.

And that's surprising why?

They're still in production. GW doesn't leave the price on things alone simply because they're old(much to my chagrin).

This.

Price tends to drop on stock that doesn't replenish, ie. Limited items or items no longer produced, or when you have too much stock. For a regularly produced item that regularly has 2-3 copies on the shelf, the price will adjust the same as all other regularly stocked items. In GW's case, this only adjusts upward.

Also, Dwarf Wolf, "looking cool" has nothing to do with price, only subjective wants. This isn't a case of "pay what YOU think they're worth" nor is this a standard market. It's a niche market, where manufacturers have more control over price because demand doesn't exactly work the same way as a mass market does. Your reply still didn't make your statement make any more sense than before.

I'm just saying what I thought was the point to it.

darkPrince010 wrote:@ The Dwarf Wolf: "The Mantic Fanatics"? Bias, much?

Seriously though, I believe that a lot of the flexibility and quick response to the customer base of Mantic is due to them being a (relatively) small company, similar to GW 2 or 3 decades ago, so only time will tell if they stay customer-friendly/responsive (And unless there's a major shakedown of GW's internal management and buisness strategies, they won't ever return to that level of customer-buisness relation that they used to have). I'm not sure how well PP has done with their customer-friendliness (since iirc they're getting to be a large model company), but I do hope Mantic stays true to their roots.

OT, the elves spears look like somebody decided the cool organic carapace-look of the armor should extend to the spear, which resulted in a visual trainwreck. The rest of the model looks fine imo.

lol... I like the Company The forum is nice...

I must give credit for that, Mantic have all that agility because of the size. But most of it is for their "head office", they are gamers like us, not businessmans trying to make money (ok, they are that, but they are gamers too)...
PP had a lot of issues with production (im out of them too, as i dont like the scenario), but they tried to be fair with their costumers about changes on production, and even asked oppinions...
Infinity launch new miniatures every week, they have a forum where they develop thing together with fans, and their rules are free to download...
I dont know what future reserve for Mantic, but right now they sound cool for me, and i can do is hope they dont go into "GW" way...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I think he was trying to get at that the models haven't been updated but the price has.

And that's surprising why?

They're still in production. GW doesn't leave the price on things alone simply because they're old(much to my chagrin).

This.

Price tends to drop on stock that doesn't replenish, ie. Limited items or items no longer produced, or when you have too much stock. For a regularly produced item that regularly has 2-3 copies on the shelf, the price will adjust the same as all other regularly stocked items. In GW's case, this only adjusts upward.

Also, Dwarf Wolf, "looking cool" has nothing to do with price, only subjective wants. This isn't a case of "pay what YOU think they're worth" nor is this a standard market. It's a niche market, where manufacturers have more control over price because demand doesn't exactly work the same way as a mass market does. Your reply still didn't make your statement make any more sense than before.

Ok... if it make you happy... that dont make sense... you win... lets us go back to the topic?

Kanluwen wrote:
Blood Knights are an entirely different story, as they're just stupidly priced.

GW Pricer: So let me get this straight, each of these "blood knights" are mini vampires?
GW Designer: Yup
GW Pricer: So we can price them, AS IF THEY WERE EACH A MOUNTED VAMPIRE BLISTER
GW Designer: Uhh
GW Pricer: Brilliant!

Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Its so interesting when people say "GW models are outdated, thats why they suck", but GW still charge 2 times the price mantic do, for those outdated things...

Probably because age(and frankly, appearance either) has nothing to do with price in this market. This whole statement made no sense.

I think he was trying to get at that the models haven't been updated but the price has.

And that's surprising why?

They're still in production. GW doesn't leave the price on things alone simply because they're old(much to my chagrin).

That product had just paid their development costs (the most expensive part of a model), they now are just reproduced a million times, with materials and mold costs associated. A reduction in the price would be welcome to regular costumers. If they dont have paid their developmente cost yet, something is wrong and someone should do something to try and increase selling rates. Reduce price is a nice way to do that...

But lets get back to the topic...

Mantic elves are diferent from GW elves. Some people like them, some people dont. Some people like them for they price. Some people prefer GW.
I prefer Mantic ones, because they are to slender. GW have some nice models in their range (see Island of Blood Mage, and Eldar e DEs). But generally speaking, i prefer Mantic ones...
But hey "viva la diversidad"!!!! Im really joking with the ideia of a mixed army of Mantic and GW orcs...

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

That product had just paid their development costs (the most expensive part of a model), they now are just reproduced a million times, with materials and mold costs associated. A reduction in the price would be welcome to regular costumers. If they dont have paid their developmente cost yet, something is wrong and someone should do something to try and increase selling rates. Reduce price is a nice way to do that...

Except that's far from the only costs GW has: employees, rent, store fees(electricity, water, etc.), the list goes on. All of that gets passed down in the price of models.

That's like saying that Best Buy just needs to pay off what they paid distributors to receive stock. It shows massive ignorance as to the actual costs businesses accrue in being run.

Mantic can keep costs down by being small and not owning stores like GW does. I guarantee you that Mantic prices would be closer to GW's if they were the same size and had stores.

kenshin620 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blood Knights are an entirely different story, as they're just stupidly priced.

GW Pricer: So let me get this straight, each of these "blood knights" are mini vampires?
GW Designer: Yup
GW Pricer: So we can price them, AS IF THEY WERE EACH A MOUNTED VAMPIRE BLISTER
GW Designer: Uhh
GW Pricer: Brilliant!

Yeah, and thankfully after the Blood Knights the metal, all-cavalry units have seemingly vanished.

Ok, so people keep saying they are as big as skeletons...maybe consider this: skeletons in gaming are too big, everyones are. Why? Simply because a proper scale skeleton would be so fragile not only would molding/casting be difficult but they would break constantly on the tabletop and in transporting.

So stop comparing the Elves to something that isnt properly proportioned to begin with.

Mad4Minis wrote:Ok, so people keep saying they are as big as skeletons...maybe consider this: skeletons in gaming are too big, everyones are. Why? Simply because a proper scale skeleton would be so fragile not only would molding/casting be difficult but they would break constantly on the tabletop and in transporting.

I hate these things, the legs keep frigging snapping and the arms refuse to be in a nice position!

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Interesting, some time ago, Mantic made stock clearance of their elfs. They sold poorly (i think it have something to do with appearance) and Mantic guys decided to sell them for half the price...

See? If you like the look of the Mantic Elves, you are in a small minority, too small to support the range.

If you read Dakka, you will see that people generally would love to have more competition to GW models. Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are not to everyone's taste, but more popular than Elves. Mantic undead and orks seem to be a reasonable alternative now.

On the other hand, we at Dakka don't blindly praise every GW model. Some we love, some not so much. Tastes differ of course. Calling us blind GW fanboys because we find the mantic Elves ugly is not justified and doesn't help your reputation here.

The Mantic elves have three problems:
1) They very strongly look different from GW elves.
2) They are a touch too slender, and the detail isn't very crisp
3) The later Mantic models are much, much better.

I like the look that mantic attempted for their elves, and I own a ton of 'em. I like that they seem more like mystical, athletic warriors than yet more burly soldiers. I like the price, and I like the shield wal look of a ranked unit.

Doesn't change that they're... a bit odd looking.

And the scouts are, alas, even worse.

OP I agree with ya. I personally think Mantics minis look pretty good. Again its all about taste. Not to mention Im sure a couple of the "MANTIC SUCK!!!!!" folks are hardcore GW fans. So take your pick

Platuan4th wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

That product had just paid their development costs (the most expensive part of a model), they now are just reproduced a million times, with materials and mold costs associated. A reduction in the price would be welcome to regular costumers. If they dont have paid their developmente cost yet, something is wrong and someone should do something to try and increase selling rates. Reduce price is a nice way to do that...

Except that's far from the only costs GW has: employees, rent, store fees(electricity, water, etc.), the list goes on. All of that gets passed down in the price of models.

That's like saying that Best Buy just needs to pay off what they paid distributors to receive stock. It shows massive ignorance as to the actual costs businesses accrue in being run.

Mantic can keep costs down by being small and not owning stores like GW does. I guarantee you that Mantic prices would be closer to GW's if they were the same size and had stores.

That's a good one. Oh wait, you weren't kidding? You really think that Mantic being small allows them to keep costs down and being large is why GW's prices are high? Yes... no doubt that's why Walmart sells the most expensive items, while mom and pop stores can undercut the big box stores so viciously...

GW's prices are high, and their stores are a drag on them economically, because they are screwing up their business. Saying "Mantic can keep costs down by being small and not owning stores like GW does" isn't a defense of GW's pricing, it's an indictment of their business model.

I mean, for crying out loud, you mention Best Buy, which has well over 1000 stores, while blaming their stores for pushing GW's prices high? Competent companies (like Best Buy) generate more revenue when they expand their number of stores. GW, meanwhile, is closing stores by the handful because their stores, mind-bogglingly, hurt their business.

---

To respond to the OP, I think it can simply be chalked up to a combination of expectation (most posters here certainly are comingat things from a position of having GW shaped their perceptions of minis), and the fact that they do suffer from beginner's defects. Mantic was just starting up, and they had not, so it seems, gotten their sea legs yet when they made those.

Buzzsaw wrote:Words without actually reading the intent of the post.

1. At no point am I defending GW's business, prices, or business model. However, their size AS A WHOLE IS a contribution to their prices and anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. Their stores are a loss in profit for them, else they wouldn't require the closing of so many these past few years. That said, yes, there IS a massive markup in GW prices due to them still believing they're the only game in town, but looking at their reports, their profits aren't as much as one would believe them to be. Why could that be, I suppose? Couldn't possibly be the wages on all that staff they had to pay, oh my, no. That's never a factor in costs. There's a lot of factors going into prices, and the size of the company is one of those.

2. Your Walmart example is laughable due to the fact that Walmart doesn't make the majority of their product. The better example is the cost of other niche accessories: First party products tend to be more expensive not just due to name brand recognition.

3. The Best Buy example(if you had actually read and comprehended) has nothing to do with THEIR business or sales methods, purely pointing out the ridiculousness of his belief that the only costs going into the price is the development costs in the product. Believing prices are based on a single cost is silly. As well, I could have picked ANY large, well known company, because the company was irrelevant to the point of the sentence.

The Mantic dragon riders' awfulness counterbalances anything good in the rest of their range

KingCracker wrote:OP I agree with ya. I personally think Mantics minis look pretty good. Again its all about taste. Not to mention Im sure a couple of the "MANTIC SUCK!!!!!" folks are hardcore GW fans. So take your pick

I’m in the same boat as well although I don’t see what all the hoo-hah is about. You either like something or you don’t, everyone’s tastes are different. I always wondered why the anti mantic crowd make such a big deal about it on these forums.

johnnyrumour wrote:The Mantic dragon riders' awfulness counterbalances anything good in the rest of their range

So, then the Pumbagore in the Fantasy range instantly makes everything else terrible? And the Canis Wolfborne model makes the 40k range horrible as well?

scarletsquig wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Mantics Skeletons and Ghouls aren't bad, but GW's VC skeletons are better. Not a fan of either companies Ghouls. The rest of the Undead from Mantic? Terrible.

Strongly disagree.

These are excellent, way better than the GW black knights:

Spoiler:

Unfortunately, mantic fails in this case by the fact that there is only one, tiny photo of the models on their site.

Better than GW's Black Knights? Yes. Excellent? Hardly.

Still, liking models is purely subjective, some people just aren't going to like something which has nothing to do with brand loyalty. Which is what I was trying to get to originally, but seemed to miss the mark. Like the skeletons, that's just something off about those. Though I'm glad you didn't try to convince me the Soul Reaver knights were awesome, then I'd just call you bat gak insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kenshin620 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blood Knights are an entirely different story, as they're just stupidly priced.

GW Pricer: So let me get this straight, each of these "blood knights" are mini vampires?
GW Designer: Yup
GW Pricer: So we can price them, AS IF THEY WERE EACH A MOUNTED VAMPIRE BLISTER
GW Designer: Uhh
GW Pricer: Brilliant!

To be fair, they're priced as if they're all metal cavalry. Which they are. Funnily enough, PP's all metal cavalry actually costs about the same. For example, Everblight Raptors are $49.99us for 3. Since Blood Knights come in a box of 5 and Raptors in a box of 3, to get the same amount of models, that's another $32au, so $82us. Blood Knights come to $99au. More expensive, but not by a whole lot, and that's after the dumb price increase going to finecast.

Better than GW's Black Knights? Yes. Excellent? Hardly.

Still, liking models is purely subjective, some people just aren't going to like something which has nothing to do with brand loyalty. Which is what I was trying to get to originally, but seemed to miss the mark. Like the skeletons, that's just something off about those. Though I'm glad you didn't try to convince me the Soul Reaver knights were awesome, then I'd just call you bat gak insane.

Heh, no chance of that, the soul reaver knights look terrible and are expensive.

As much as I am a fan of mantic, I am also quick to point out when they are just plain failing... it doesn't do the company any favours to gush over something that looks horrible.

Revenant Cavalry on the other hand are brilliant and also £2.50/model.

It is all subject to taste though... all I will say is that I think a lot of it is to do with people being far too used to GW's heroic scale miniatures, so mantic often gets seen as "too small" or "badly proportioned" when in fact they are just the same size/proportion as all the other non-GW/PP 28mm models that exist. A lot of people who only play GW will not have ever seen historical miniatures or whatever, so the concept of "true scale" is kinda alien to them, even if it is a legitimate sculpting style.

Mantic Elves are the ultimate expression of a true-scale sculpt that jars people who are used to GW elves.

Personally, I think the current GW plastic spear elves look horrible... they have fatty hamfists, ridiculous skirts, big heads and ugly poses. Not a big fan of mantic's either, but I think the twilight kin could improve the models to the point where I like them.

I do think there is too much focus on the sculpts that aren't all that great though... I like about 80% of mantic's models, but it's the 20% that look bad that everyone always seems to bang on about whenever mantic is talked about.

If you read Dakka, you will see that people generally would love to have more competition to GW models. Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are not to everyone's taste, but more popular than Elves. Mantic undead and orks seem to be a reasonable alternative now.

This is probably the most accurate statement I've seen in this thread regarding mantic as a whole. Elves are definitely weak, Dwarfs are average, Orcs/ Undead good.

I think they're still learning the ropes overall, the company has only existed for 2 years.

I am expecting their forgefathers to be the thing that really makes them stand out... the reason for this is that there is a proper concept artist hired now, and it's clear that the sculptors are being required to stick to it closely... whereas before they just did their own thing.

For instance, here is the concept art for the drakon riders... if only the sculptor had stuck to it, they could have turned out really well instead of looking like hybrid chickens/ fairground rides!

Kroothawk, sorry. I dont mean to offend anyone.

Plutuan4th, i agree with you. There is no way to compare a big generalist store with a big generalist small hobby store. I just think that GW model is strange, somewhere in time they decided to be the hobby (or they where it, i really dont know), them they started to sell their own products in their own stores.

That is a strange models, specially in a world who dwell in niches, its a lot more logical to choose one niche and stick with it. GW tryed to be the producer, the actor, the cinema, the studio and tape factory, all at the same time.

So, the problem with GW is not their SIZE but their distribution. Do Wizards of the Coast have their own stores? Do DC or Marvel have their own stores? Do Hasbro have their own toy stores? Do any of those BIG companies have tremendous high prices and a politics of "only support our own stores"?

I feel a lot sad for having come late, for not beying here at the early GW. Mantic is offering me a way to feel like that, maybe not the exact SAME thing, but probably like it... And thats is probably why i am a Mantic Fanatic...

And johnnyrummor: lol

lord marcus wrote:Now I ask why...

Because there are some posters at this website who seem to do nothing but jump into any Mantic thread that starts for no other reason than to air grievances with the company or mindlessly criticise something. I wish these sorts of people would stop posting.











And I hope all'a y'all's irony detectors just fething exploded!

Proportions are way off, heads are too big and limbs are too slender, I'm a huge fan of GW Elves and these almost appear to be a whole different race. I recently had this dispute with a local gamer, he thinks that they meld with GW elves easily and I 100% disagree, Maybe they are a type of diseased elf that is shrivelling away from that or something....

Yeah, i agree... GW elfs are all obese...
Sorry man, dont resisted... it was just a joke

johnnyrumour wrote:The Mantic dragon riders' awfulness counterbalances anything good in the rest of their range

Do you mean just in the elf range, or in the entire range of products for kings of war from all armies? Because if its the latter I think you are extremely wrong.

Elves not my thing, can see both sides of the coin though.

Dwarves are quite nice.

Orcs are really nice, as are Skeletons.

Chaos Dwarves made me weep. Never had less enjoyment putting together figures.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And I hope all'a y'all's irony detectors just fething exploded!

Oh my god, you really had me for a moment there



Since we're throwing poorly supported generalizations around, let me just say that it's obvious that some people have developed such a deep and irrational hatred of GW that they will not allow any compliment to GW or any criticism of their new favorite company to go unchallenged. Until they get disillusioned again and seek out a new target for their adoration.

I don't care for them because they're so tiny. When I put one next to my other figures I use for D&D (Reaper, some GW Fantasy, WotC minis), they are just too darn small. They're like halflings. Really, really skinny halflings.

When I'm playing a fantasy game with fireballs, flying dragons, and undead, I need realism in my miniatures...