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Brother Coa wrote:

Harriticus wrote:The Tau have a much better grasp on their technology than the Imperium.

Even Tau Railguns are primitive when compared to Imperium's Nova Cannons.
Just because they use STC and have a habit to praise to the "Machine God" doesen't mean they don't have a clue how that tech works. And that they can't build new stuff...

It really does. People try to paint this picture that the Mechanicus is a professional organization hiding behind a religious facade when the opposite is true in the established fluff, they are slowly losing their grip on technology and can't reproduce a lot of older weapons systems like Imperators. It's why stuff like new Leman Russ variants didn't exist earlier in the Imperium and why the technological state of the Imperium has gone down in the last 10,000 years, not up. If they were as technology-savy as the Tau, they would have progressed over 10 millennia rather then regressed.

The Bloodbearer wrote:Everybody knows the Space Marines are the strongest force the Imperium can bring to a fight, but would it be possible for any of the xenos, the well known ones or the less known ones to go through a similiar process to become genetically enhanced warriors or even if any of them do gentically enhance their soldiers already to a similiar level of the space marines.

Obviously there are no xeno primarchs, but they have their own leaders they could get a "type" of geneseed from or some may be able to artificially create DNA for the process.

They wouldn't be exactly the same as the Imperium's space marines but possibly very similiar.

The entire Necrontyr race for starters. Sure, not technically "bo-engineering" but it made their race into a legion of undying super soldiers.

I doubt most races would want to or be capable of creating genetic supersoldiers, with the exception of the Tyranids, and Dark Eldar (Warriors and Wracks, Scourges, ect. respectivelly)

Eldar aren't desperate enough to subject their own kind to painful genetic surgeries with a high lethality rate, especially when they see themselves as perfection already.

Orks would love to enhance themselves, and they attempt to with cyborks and Deff Dreads, but I doubt any except a few painboys would know enough about ork genetics to do so, and even fewer would have the necessary resources.

Tau fire caste members while being natural born warriors (at least compared to other Tau) have a different style of warfare then what genetic augmentation would accomplish, so they much prefer battlesuits to genetic surgery (and frankly so would I)

Crons make mechanically superior bodies for their elite troops but there's no genetics to alter, unless they could do so to Pariahs (hmm I smell a plot to obtain geneseed to create Space Marine Pariahs now...)

Oriallis wrote:I doubt most races would want to or be capable of creating genetic supersoldiers, with the exception of the Tyranids, and Dark Eldar (Warriors and Wracks, Scourges, ect. respectivelly)

Eldar aren't desperate enough to subject their own kind to painful genetic surgeries with a high lethality rate, especially when they see themselves as perfection already.

Orks would love to enhance themselves, and they attempt to with cyborks and Deff Dreads, but I doubt any except a few painboys would know enough about ork genetics to do so, and even fewer would have the necessary resources.

Tau fire caste members while being natural born warriors (at least compared to other Tau) have a different style of warfare then what genetic augmentation would accomplish, so they much prefer battlesuits to genetic surgery (and frankly so would I)

Crons make mechanically superior bodies for their elite troops but there's no genetics to alter, unless they could do so to Pariahs (hmm I smell a plot to obtain geneseed to create Space Marine Pariahs now...)

In the case of the Orks, the genetic enhancement comes naturally to them. Nobs are bigger and stronger than Marines are.

Well, glad you mentioned Necron Pariahs. Since they already do use technology to enhance a human Pariah to create a a more powerful shock trooper.

I doubt there are any Space Marines who have the Pariah Gene.

yeah but could they augment the geneseed to include the pariah gene? Necrons seem capable of a lot of things when they're not asleep.

I don't really know.

The Pariah Gene was seeded into humanity eons ago, and came about over time.

Well you definately know more about Necrons than I do. Still would be a cool idea, and I always assumed that most regular humans could be augmented with geneseed, so why couldn't a pariah?

Geneseeds are made to only work on human males. (Might get even more narrow as only working on people with the right combo of markers. that would help explain why so many die under the treatment.) Really if you want a SM there are so many other ways you can make one, I doubt you will see anyone else make a geneseed.

Marines won't naturally have the Pariah gene due to the fact that Pariah are generally killed by the population or taken into one of the assassin temples, the one that deals specifically with blanks and such. However, I do not think it infeasible for a marine to have the gene implanted in him should he be captured by the Necrons

Zeno can't have genetically modified warriors because they don't have a genetic template of a super-xeno
eg: The god-emperor
And the primarchs are clones of the God-Emperor.

Harriticus wrote:
It really does. People try to paint this picture that the Mechanicus is a professional organization hiding behind a religious facade when the opposite is true in the established fluff, they are slowly losing their grip on technology and can't reproduce a lot of older weapons systems like Imperators. It's why stuff like new Leman Russ variants didn't exist earlier in the Imperium and why the technological state of the Imperium has gone down in the last 10,000 years, not up. If they were as technology-savy as the Tau, they would have progressed over 10 millennia rather then regressed.

People are getting this all wrong. They know how to fix a lot of stuff, but they lack essentially for other big stuff. Most of the time it's the very nature of the thing they don't know how to build ( Like Vanquisher, they tried to replicate it's cannon x times without success. Only STC version worked this far ). I imagine AM like this: bunch of smart guys who knows how much of their tech work, but don't know the nature behind it ( like my trying to build an electric motor, but I don't have a clue what Electromagnetism is. ), and that's the real problem with them. Other problem is religion who ban them from discovering new things ( heresy, eh? ).

They always build from an STC,meaning that all of them look the same.The only thing they don't build from an STC is Titans.

Prof. Omnom wrote:Zeno can't have genetically modified warriors because they don't have a genetic template of a super-xeno
eg: The god-emperor
And the primarchs are clones of the God-Emperor.

Ok, this is the dumbest post i've read today...


Read up on the Nids. They have Superxenos. They are a hell of a lot better at genetic modification than the IOM is

Using the emperor as a STC for making primarchs is the poor man's approach to genetic manipulation, and look how well that one turned out afterwards

Genetic modification does not require the Emperor to be involved. All it requires is that genes be modified, providing a benefit to the host. Nids are the masters of genetic manipulation, genesplicing and innovative rapid evolution, incorporating dna from every race they run across and extrapolating it. They choose the bits they want, and include them in future creatures they create, sometimes coming up with entirely new species from the captured DNA if it is promising enough.

The Space Martines can only reproduce through replication.

The Emperor is the "Start here" dot.

Clone the Emperor,and divide by 20,then you get Primarchs.

Clone each Primarch once,then divide the clone by 10,000.

Thart is,in simple terms,how the Astartes were created from the Emperor.

Yup, that's the human way of doing it. It's limited, but reasonably effective as far as it goes.

There are other ways for the 'perfidious xenos' to genetically tinker

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It does actually. The Mechanicum has no idea how their stuff works. More incense and prayers fixes everything!

I agree and here some "proof"

FlammingGaunt wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It does actually. The Mechanicum has no idea how their stuff works. More incense and prayers fixes everything!

I agree and here some "proof"

I do.

Im very surprised the Tau havent tried to make their equivalent of space marines. Yes they have battle suits ect, but can you imagine a space marine INSIDE a battlesuit.
Going off topic a bit, reading through the horus heresy series, im surprised I havent heard of any other human civilisation who made astartes equivalents, the IOM cant have been the first.

vodo40k wrote:
.... im surprised I haven't heard of any other human civilisation who made astartes equivalents, the IOM can't have been the first.

The IoM found the remnants of knowledge from the DAoT.
And they had the scientists and a dedicated leader figure to make it happen.

Why should any other human civilization create Astartes?
Some had old tech left and simply preferred to focus on equipment.
The gene-enhancement of soldiers in the unification wars could be a result of said unification wars too.

Genetically-engineered surgically-enhanced super-warriors are the Imperium's thing, and central to the setting's style and tone; plausibility be damned, it would dilute their importance and uniqueness (as well as that of the game's other factions) if everybody had access to the same thing.

vodo40k wrote:Im very surprised the Tau havent tried to make their equivalent of space marines. Yes they have battle suits ect, but can you imagine a space marine INSIDE a battlesuit.

It would be identical to a normal guy in a battlesuit. Similair to how a big, tough guy in a tank isn't necessarily a better pilot than a weedy guy.

1hadhq wrote:

vodo40k wrote:
.... im surprised I haven't heard of any other human civilisation who made astartes equivalents, the IOM can't have been the first.

The IoM found the remnants of knowledge from the DAoT.
And they had the scientists and a dedicated leader figure to make it happen.

Why should any other human civilization create Astartes?
Some had old tech left and simply preferred to focus on equipment.
The gene-enhancement of soldiers in the unification wars could be a result of said unification wars too.

By all means the Emperors Genetic mastery made the best Gene-soldiers in the galaxy, but I find it hard to believe of all the hundreds of other, more technologically advanced civilisations than the IoM, none even made a few lower grade warriors (think spartans from halo in grade and numbers)

vodo40k wrote:

By all means the Emperors Genetic mastery made the best Gene-soldiers in the galaxy, but I find it hard to believe of all the hundreds of other, more technologically advanced civilisations than the IoM, none even made a few lower grade warriors (think spartans from halo in grade and numbers)

Spartans from Halo? Not Spartans from Sparta? I think I only know the latter.
All the hundreds, oh so advanced civilisations are not part of the background. Seems they didn't last.
Maybe encountered a "great crusade" coming their way.
But the Galaxy is a vast place, not fully explored yet. GW put some civilzations in the rulebook without further explanations.
There is your gene-enhanced soldiery....If you want to believe.

TrollPie wrote: Similar to how a big, tough guy in a tank isn't necessarily a better pilot than a weedy guy.

Too bad the pilot is more than just big and tough...

vodo40k wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

vodo40k wrote:
.... im surprised I haven't heard of any other human civilisation who made astartes equivalents, the IOM can't have been the first.

The IoM found the remnants of knowledge from the DAoT.
And they had the scientists and a dedicated leader figure to make it happen.

Why should any other human civilization create Astartes?
Some had old tech left and simply preferred to focus on equipment.
The gene-enhancement of soldiers in the unification wars could be a result of said unification wars too.

By all means the Emperors Genetic mastery made the best Gene-soldiers in the galaxy, but I find it hard to believe of all the hundreds of other, more technologically advanced civilisations than the IoM, none even made a few lower grade warriors (think spartans from halo in grade and numbers)

Because they don't have a emperor. Not just his gene seed. They don't have the icon of a divine god that they base everything around. The IoM doesn't use SM because they are all powerful killing machines. They use them so they can feel the emperor is still around and still safeguarding the.

Other sides don't have that far as I know.

yes xeno space marine exist they are just not in the fluff or in the rules - end of topic.

I stand by my claim that the other races lack either technology or motivation to create space marine equivalents. I've already stated reasons for the major races, minor species probably lack the tech. From what I can tell, while the IoM is close to the bottom when it comes to tech compared to the other races, they are still a heck of a lot better than most of the more minor Xenos races (Which is probably why they don't fight in these big conflicts anyhow)

Oriallis wrote:I stand by my claim that the other races lack either technology or motivation to create space marine equivalents. I've already stated reasons for the major races, minor species probably lack the tech. From what I can tell, while the IoM is close to the bottom when it comes to tech compared to the other races, they are still a heck of a lot better than most of the more minor Xenos races (Which is probably why they don't fight in these big conflicts anyhow)

okay lets look at it firstly imperium of man is big but the universe is bigger, there are plenty of races who are kicking imperiums butt (of course they aren't as big as imperium but on fair ground they kick ass) if imperium was small it would most probably get destroyed but fluff wise they got millions of world when other minor aliens can hope for a solar system like Thyrrus etc

then you have to look into the fluff - the interex where a human species who with the help of alien tech had a little empire before HH and they kicked space marine butt, they had armor they could walk into that made them into centaur like creatures (if it wasn't for the fact that imperium is huge they could have beaten most space marine) - this proves aliens do have tech that can be as good as space marine or even surpass it, then we had the Laer another species who used bio engineering to create warriors again just as powerful as a space marine and in some cases better.

now you have to ask yourself, are those the only species in the universe? no so surely some species far away from imperium has some advance tech that is on par with Imperium if not better, just look at the stupid grey knight monkeys - their tech is beyond imperiums heck those monkeys can take normal weapons of imperium and make it better says a lot about alien species- and those monkey don't even have a huge culture (they act like really smart monkeys) and they make weapons that makes imperium look like children now imagine those monkeys are scouts and they do have their own empire far FAR away with more monkeys - can you imagine a whole race of super smart monkeys who carry las-cannons inside their handbags??? (I want space monkeys)

Hell, if you want to talk xenos that create races via genetic manipulation to use as warriors look no further than the Old Ones.

Humans (unfinished experiment), Joaekero, Orks, Eldar and a host of others were Old One created races, created to fight in the War in Heaven.

Ascalam wrote:

Humans (unfinished experiment

It hints in the Battle Missions book that the Necrons created humans,to use as cattle to feed the C'tan.

Deadshot wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

Humans (unfinished experiment

It hints in the Battle Missions book that the Necrons created humans,to use as cattle to feed the C'tan.

That didn't work out at all then. Considering the war against the Old Ones happened long before humanity was likely out of the stone-age, I doubt that. The Old Ones would be the ones that created humanity if they were ever even created by an outside force.