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And like I said, the power isn't targeting the Titan. its targeting the model with HS.


Would you argue that the powers Hammerhand or Might of Titan doesn't effect the Titan? they don't have a given strength value, they simply effect the target(the caster's unit)

Ok I can see where you are coming from and with no GK codex on hand for an exact wording (which is ok btw). I still think that you would not take the titan with you. The effect of the power is still focussing on the titan and has no strength thus it is ignored.

Therefore,all you would do is remove yourself,which doesn't matter 'cos you're dead.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok I can see where you are coming from and with no GK codex on hand for an exact wording (which is ok btw). I still think that you would not take the titan with you. The effect of the power is still focussing on the titan and has no strength thus it is ignored.

The model is actually making an attack that just needs to hit. there is nothing psychic about it.

the fluff is that the victim thinks he has killed you and then you totally WTFPWN him while he is focusing on something else.

The power says pass a pyschic test,roll to hit.Nothibng about Str in there.


And if you weant to go fluffy,think aboput it.I can understand a dying GK going hulk on a Carnifex and insta-force killing him.But how is he going to Take down an Emperor class battle tian.These things have more armour than the WHOLE,GK chapter.He can't even scratch it with his tooth pick.

The Titan is immune to powers that target it that don't have a str value.

powers that target something else, and give it an ability or bonus, arn't stopped.



by your definition, I wouldn't get the bonus for Hammerhand or Might of Titan when attacking the Titan in CC because those don't have a Str value(they simply give a unit a CC bonus)

Grey Templar wrote:by your definition, I wouldn't get the bonus for Hammerhand or Might of Titan when attacking the Titan in CC because those don't have a Str value(they simply give a unit a CC bonus)

I see the parallel you're trying to draw, but if I could make a counter-argument? Hammerhand as a power only mentions the squad it is applied to. It doesn't mention the enemy at all in its effect description. Heroic Sacrifice, on the other hand, does mention the enemy unit in its effect - and since it does so, and has no strength characteristic, I would take that RAW to be that the Titan is immune to its effect.

Same.

Grey Templar wrote:The Titan is immune to powers that target it that don't have a str value.

powers that target something else, and give it an ability or bonus, arn't stopped.

You are reading something that isn't there.

Super Heavies are not affected by psychic powers (Apoc, p93). The words "Target" and "Stopped" aren't in the rule at all, so don't use them. The Target of a psychic power is inconsequential, and the power is never "stopped" under any circumstances - the Super Heavy is simply unaffected by the power.

It does not matter who specifically is targeted by Heroic Sacrifice. All that matters is who it affects - in this case, Crowe and an Imperator. The power is resolved as normal, but any effects that would affect the Imperator are ignored. Removing it from play is obviously an effect.

the way I see it is that HS targets the Brotherhood Champion, or Crowe, and gives him the ability....

it simply gives him the ability. this ability is then explained.

...to make a single attack against any model in BtB with himself. If this attack hits, remove both models from play.



Lucas's Last Laugh effects Super Heavies, why can't Heroic Sacrifice?

Last Laugh isn't a psychic power in any shape or form.

Grey Templar wrote:The model is actually making an attack that just needs to hit. there is nothing psychic about it.

So now you are saying that Heroic Sacrifice isn't a psychic power?

Titans are not affected by psychic powers without a strength value.

The effects of the Heroic Sacrifice psychic power is that an enemy model, along with the caster, are removed as casuallties on a successful hit. Is the psychic power having an affect only on Crowe? No, since an enemy model is also being removed from play, that means another model is also being affected. So, the additional effects of Heroic Sacrifice, removing an enemy model from play, have no affect on Titans since they are immune to the affects of psychic powers without a strength value.

It really isn't that hard to understand, is it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the way I see it is that HS targets the Brotherhood Champion, or Crowe, and gives him the ability....

it simply gives him the ability. this ability is then explained.

...to make a single attack against any model in BtB with himself. If this attack hits, remove both models from play.

His attack is "psychically charged," since he had to first pass a psychic test to use this psychic power, and the effect of the psychic attack is that it removes a model from play. It doesn't have strength value, therefore Titans are immune to it. It isn't that much different than having to hit with a psychic shooting attack and if the target is hit, you then work out the effects of the power.

Lucas's Last Laugh effects Super Heavies, why can't Heroic Sacrifice?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Last Laugh isn't a psychic power in any shape or form.

This.

I meant the effect wasn't directly a psychic power.

a Direct psychic power would be him tossing a bolt at the titan in the form of a PSA that makes it disappear.

I didn't infer that Last Laugh was a psychic power, at least I didn't mean to.



How about this example.

Kharn is Immune to Psychic powers, but he can be killed by an activated Force Weapon since the Force Weapon psychic power isn't targeting him, its targeting the Force Weapon to make it cause ID.


think of Heroic Sacrific the same way.

Its a Power that allows the target(the psyker) to make a single attack against a model in BtB with the caster. if the attack hits, both the caster and the model that was hit are removed.

Grey Templar wrote:I meant the effect wasn't directly a psychic power.

a Direct psychic power would be him tossing a bolt at the titan in the form of a PSA that makes it disappear.

I didn't infer that Last Laugh was a psychic power, at least I didn't mean to.



How about this example.

Kharn is Immune to Psychic powers, but he can be killed by an activated Force Weapon since the Force Weapon psychic power isn't targeting him, its targeting the Force Weapon to make it cause ID.


think of Heroic Sacrific the same way.

Its a Power that allows the target(the psyker) to make a single attack against a model in BtB with the caster. if the attack hits, both the caster and the model that was hit are removed.

Kharn is immune to the Psychic effects of a force weapon, but is not immune to the power weapon qualities of a force weapon. In other words, force weapons are treated as normal power weapons against Kharn.

Thanks for all the responses this is very enlightening. From what I can deduce:

1) Titans are unaffected ( immune? ) from psychic attacks or any character test involving psychic powers/skills, if they don't have any Str value.

2) Titans are not immune to ALL "remove from play/game" attacks as they are not classified under "Instant Death" rule?!

Grey Templar wrote:


by your definition, I wouldn't get the bonus for Hammerhand or Might of Titan when attacking the Titan in CC because those don't have a Str value(they simply give a unit a CC bonus)

Actually they do have a Strength value. Its no different than a powerfist or hammer doubling your strength. Hammerhand,for example, makes a normal Grey Knight hit at S5 instead of 4. So yes, technically you could use these powers on a GC/SH.

mindfield wrote:Thanks for all the responses this is very enlightening. From what I can deduce:

1) Titans are unaffected ( immune? ) from psychic attacks or any character test involving psychic powers/skills, if they don't have any Str value.

2) Titans are not immune to ALL "remove from play/game" attacks as they are not classified under "Instant Death" rule?!

1) Yes. Psychic powers without a strength value will not harm a super heavy or gargantuan creature.

2) Some attacks that remove models from play are psychic powers while others are items of wargear, abilities, etc. Super heavies and gargantuan creatures are only immune to attacks like this from psychic powers. If a model has an item of wargear or special ability that removes a model from play, such as Lukas the Tricksters' "The Last Laugh," then these will affect super heavies and gargantuan creatures as normal.

"Remove from play" and "instant death" are two different things. Against GC, ID weapons will only cause one wound, while non-psychic remove from play attacks will generally cause D3 wounds. Super heavies don't suffer ID as they don't have wounds, and non-psychic remove from play attacks will affect them depending on the rules for the attack (The Last Laugh will remove the super heavy from play, while a Vortex Grenade will cause it to lose D3 structure points instead, for example).

bazookatooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:


by your definition, I wouldn't get the bonus for Hammerhand or Might of Titan when attacking the Titan in CC because those don't have a Str value(they simply give a unit a CC bonus)

Actually they do have a Strength value. Its no different than a powerfist or hammer doubling your strength. Hammerhand,for example, makes a normal Grey Knight hit at S5 instead of 4. So yes, technically you could use these powers on a GC/SH.

So you are saying Hammerhand and Might of Titan have Str values?

Really?

What are they pray tell?

+1Str isn't a value. +1D6 isn't an Armor penetration value. they are modifiers of those characteristics, but the power itself doesn't have those characteristics.

It really doesn't work any different than Lady Malys. If the psychic power does anything to the titan, it does nothing instead. Hammerhand, Might of Titan or any other similar effects do not affect the super-heavy walker at all, so there is no effect to be ignored. Heroic Sacrifice affects the target without doubt, just like a force weapons, doom, or any other non-strength psychic ability.

Grey Templar wrote:

bazookatooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:


by your definition, I wouldn't get the bonus for Hammerhand or Might of Titan when attacking the Titan in CC because those don't have a Str value(they simply give a unit a CC bonus)

Actually they do have a Strength value. Its no different than a powerfist or hammer doubling your strength. Hammerhand,for example, makes a normal Grey Knight hit at S5 instead of 4. So yes, technically you could use these powers on a GC/SH.

So you are saying Hammerhand and Might of Titan have Str values?

Really?

What are they pray tell?

+1Str isn't a value. +1D6 isn't an Armor penetration value. they are modifiers of those characteristics, but the power itself doesn't have those characteristics.

By modifying the strength it becomes S5 that is a strength value is it not? All you are doing is changing a stat line. Technically you are using the psychic ability on yourself and not the Titan, so its "ignores psychic abilities that don't have strength values" rule wouldn't apply anyway. Heroic Sacrifice is a psychic power that affects a targeted model and has no strength value. The 2 are different as far as i can tell.

also guys clensing fire is not clasified as a phychic power is a CC attack if you read the FAQ I believe.

bit like heroic sacrifice its a CC attack.

Also sorry about my spellings

Cleansing Fire isn't really up for discussion. It was mentioned by accident.

Marthike wrote:also guys clensing fire is not clasified as a phychic power is a CC attack if you read the FAQ I believe.

bit like heroic sacrifice its a CC attack.

Also sorry about my spellings

If it requires a psychic test, it's a psychic power. Whether it's close combat attack, PSA, buff or debuff doesn't matter.

Nowhere does it say that it has to target the SH. All the rules say is that it ignores psychic powers without a strength value. So if it has no str then the titan will ignore it. Hammerhand is different in that it affects only the user in that it adds 1 to the str. This new str is what is now used when hitting.
And before you say well this power only affects me too, let me point out that you have to hit then the rules for a psychic power come into play attempting to remove both an infantry model and the SH. At this point the super heavy part would be ignored and Crowe or whoever would be removed.

But both Heroic Sacrifice and Hammerhand have the same target, the caster.


Heroic Sacrifice gives the target a single attack that, if it hits, will remove the model that was hit by the attack.

Hammerhand, if the test was passed, gives the wielder +1Str.



and Hammerhand does NOT have a str value because it is entirely dependent on who is recieving the effect of the power.

a Psyker Inquisitor who joins a Henchmen squad can cast Hammerhand. the power then raises the Str of the Henchmen to from 3. or what if a Librarian joins a squad of GKs that have also cast Hammerhand, then they will be at Str6 instead of 5.

Its a modifier. that just happens to give a Str bonus. it doesn't have a Str value.

Hammerhand has a strength value: S+1, where S is the current strength of the model.

Hammerhand doesn't affect the titan, it affects the people swinging hammers and hands at it. It makes them stronger as a buff to them. It does nothing to the titan.

Heroic Sacrifice, however, affects the targeted model. It being removed is not a buff to the caster but instead a psychic power trying to affect the titan. Because there is no strength value, the titan ignores it and continues stomping around the battlefield.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Hammerhand doesn't affect the titan, it affects the people swinging hammers and hands at it. It makes them stronger as a buff to them. It does nothing to the titan.

Heroic Sacrifice, however, affects the targeted model. It being removed is not a buff to the caster but instead a psychic power trying to affect the titan. Because there is no strength value, the titan ignores it and continues stomping around the battlefield.

-cgmckenzie

Indeed. Heroic Sacrifice doesn't grant Crowe/the Brotherhood Champ a special form of attack, it is a special form of attack. One that superheavies ignore.

Grey Templar, stop thinking about Targets. The Super Heavy rule has nothing to do with who is targeted.

I can't believe we are actually arguing about a situation that shouldn't even occur.Why is Crowe rammi9ng Daemon Blades up the Titan's backside,when the titan can dish out 8 7" blasts,Str 9,AP3 at 96",BS4?That kind of ordnance eat MEQ for pre-breakfast nibbles.