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Seeing titans fall to rag-tag units of nobz or terminators isn't that uncommon in apoc.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Grey Templar, stop thinking about Targets. The Super Heavy rule has nothing to do with who is targeted.

It has everything to do with the target.

No, it doesn't. The rule doesn't mention target at all. Only effects. Is a Imperator affected by Heroic Sacrifice? Yes. Is an Imperator affected by Hammerhand? No.

Nope, it doesn't.
Does heroic intervention affect the model it removes?
Definitely.
Does it have a strength value?
Nope.
-> It doesn't do nothing vs super heavies or gargantuan creatures.

If you want to be very nit-picky about RAW, Crowe would still be allowed an attack against the titan, but it wouldn't remove it, even if successful, as that's the effect of the psychic ability.

I still don't think thats right.


Especially if you consider the fluff angle(and Appoc is mostly about fluff)

I know that Fluff =/= Rules so this is completely FWIW.


the power is the GK basically re-energising his body to strike one final unexpected blow. its just a normal attack, its just completely by surprise. it represents someone killing the dude, thinking he is dead, and then a blade comes from nowhere and decapitates you/any other messy way of dying that no form of protection would help against.

against a Titan, think of the guy tossing his sword straight through a vital spot causing the Titan to shut down.

A vortex genade, a hit by a destroyer weapon which vaporises anything it hits including terrain, or the punch of a 20-story high giant bug don't kill it. Why should Crowe's crappy sword do so?

He isn't Draigo, after all.

Grey Templar wrote:I still don't think thats right.

Because you aren't really listening to what everyone else is saying.

Super heavies "are not affected by psychic powers (either friendly or enemy) with the exception of those that are attacks with a given strength value..." page 93.

Is Hammerhand a psychic power? Yes

What are the effects of Hammerhand if successfully cast? That all models in the unit get +1 strength.

Would Hammerhand affect a super heavy? No, as the power affects only the caster's unit and does nothing else to enemy models.



Is The Shrouding a psychic power? Yes

What are the effects of The Shrouding if successfully cast? That the caster and any friendly units within 6" have the Stealth special rule.

Would The Shrouding affect a super heavy? No, because it doesn't have a strength value.



Is Vortex of Doom a psychic power? Yes

What are the effects of VoD if successfully cast and to hit roll is made? That a unit within 12" is hit by a stength 10 AP1 attack.

Would the VoD affect a super heavy? Yes, because the psychic power has a given strength value.


Is Heroic Sacrifice a psychic power? yes

What are the effects of HS if successfully cast? That one enemy model is removed from play on a successful to hit roll. This is no different than using a psychic shooting attack that requires a to hit roll, and if successful, the effects of the power are then worked out.

Would HS affect a super heavy? No, because the psychic power does not have a given strength value.


I have bolded affect and effect throughout because this seems to be the point you are missing. It is the effect of the psychic power that matters, and super heavies are not affected by psychic powers that don't have a given strength value.

Its all about the target, and I belive that Heroic Sacrifice only targets the Brotherhood Champion. in the same way that Hammerhand only targets the casting model.

its effect is that the Champion makes an attack, not the attack itself. The attack isn't the effect, the ability to make this special kind of attack is.



I understand your argument, but I don't belive its the proper way. Thats ok, you play your way, I'll play mine.

Is my way a little rediclous, yeah. but then again, so are all of the concepts of this game.


I agree to disagree.

But you are wrong.

That psychic power affects the titan but has no strength value, so nothing happens. The guy casting it does his end but the titan is unmoved. Check the Apoc book if you have one, because it clearly says contrary to your line of reasoning.

Saying that the psychic power only affects the caster by allowing him to do the attack would be like saying how The Shrouding affects it because it allows the caster to give people stealth.

-cgmckenzie

We can ofc also blame GW for not clearly labeling the psychic powers simply as offensive/defensive for the purpose of immunities... how hard would that be?

No its not all about the target. The super heavy rule about ignore psychic attacks without a strength value has NOTHING to do with a target. You keep bringing up the target and I can't understand why. The rule doesn't care about what the target is or isn't. All it cares about is: is it psychic and if so does it have a strength value?

Grey Templar has proven that he doesn't care what the rules say; arguing with him is worthless at this point.

I care about the rules. This is my interpertation, it itsn't any better or worse then the others.


I have interperted the power to target the caster and NOT its victim. There isn't a way to solidly proove it one way or another.

I agree to disagree.

I don't understand how someone could argue that an IC can somehow have a power that can remove a IMPERATOR TITAN FROM PLAY INSTANTLY.

Grey Templar wrote:its effect is that the Champion makes an attack, not the attack itself. The attack isn't the effect, the ability to make this special kind of attack is.

The effects of the psychic power is that on a successful hit, an enemy model is removed. Two parts. A psychic attack, and an effect of the psychic attack. You can make your attack, but the super heavy simply ignores the effects of being removed from play as this is a psychic power attack that does not have a strength value.

Again, this attack that you seem to be so focused on is no different than a psychic shooting attack that needs a successful to hit roll in order for the effects of the psychic power to work. Vortex of Doom: pass your psychic test then roll to hit. If the target is hit, then it suffers a S10 hit. Heroic Sacrifice: pass your psychic test then roll to hit. If the target is hit, then it is removed from play. No difference, other than one being a psychic shooting attack and the other being a psychic close combat attack.

There is no agree to disagree, as you are clearly wrong in your interpretation and are just being purposely obtuse. You have yet to offer up any kind of valid argument for your interpretation (you were wrong about Kharn, remember?) while myself and others have repeatedly explained why your interpretation is wrong. "I don't think that is right" isn't a valid argument on your part.

So, the correct answer to the OP's question, and that is what matters here rather than this silly round and round argument with Grey Templar, is that Heroic Sacrifice will not affect a super heavy or gargantuan creature because it is a psychic attack that does not have a strength value.

A) The psychic power is affecting the titan by removing it from play. Psychic power occurs-result is attack is attack being made which removes titan. That attack is not a standard attack, it is instead the result of a psychic test and, consequently, a psychic power.

B)It has no strength value, but is a psychic power. It cannot affect the titan. Allowing an attack that removes the titan from play is affecting the titan.

C)The rules don't say anything about having targeting the titan for it to ignore the effects, merely that psychic attacks with no strength value have no effect on super heavies or GC.

D)Agreeing to disagree requires others to agree with you(to disagree). Nobody is, but we do all agree you are wrong.

-cgmckenzie

GT - please, stop using the word "target". "Target" is not important, "affect" is.

The power most certainly affects the imperator.

I just wish people would stop calling it an Imperator.Imperator is just a pattern of Emperor Battle Titan.There is no unit named Imperator Titan.


GT,you have been wrong from the start.If you want to play like that,fine with me,good luck finding an opponent that agrees Crowe will remove his Mega-Titan from the game on a psychic test,followed by a 3+ to hit.

Deadshot wrote:

GT,you have been wrong from the start.If you want to play like that,fine with me,good luck finding an opponent that agrees Crowe will remove his Mega-Titan from the game on a psychic test,followed by a 3+ to hit.

QFT. For sure, get outta here with that garbage man. Crowe is a bad man but, a little pin prick on the toe won't take my titan off the table. I will laugh you out of the game store before I let that happen. Its is a Psychic Ability that has no Strength value = nothing happens to Titans and GCs. Why are you fighting so hard against this? Its pretty cut and dry. Maybe if the wording said leadership test instead of PSYCHIC TEST you would have a tiny leg to stand on.

Deadshot wrote:I just wish people would stop calling it an Imperator.Imperator is just a pattern of Emperor Battle Titan.There is no unit named Imperator Titan.

mindfield wrote:We just had this apoc game where we fielded an imperator titan[...]

We're calling it an Imperator because that's what the OP asked about, just as we would call it a Warmonger Titan if that's what the thread was about.

There is, in the German apoc book
(Imperator is German for emperor)

Jidmah wrote:There is, in the German apoc book
(Imperator is German for emperor)

Isn't that "Kaiser"?

An "Imperator" is the ruler over an empire with him as the only leading power, who usually got into that position by himself.

A "Kaiser" is the king of all kings, who (usually legally) has come into office by heritage or was chosen from the leading group of nobles. He also shares power with some other institution, like the church or a senate.

Anyway,that is the Tranlation of the word Emperor,futher illustrating my point.

I wasn't shouting at you guys specifically,just in general at the people who know the difference but still call it an Imperator.If they don't know it is a different story,but htis should teach them otherwise.

Again, thanks for the patient discussion of the topic. I really appreciate it. Staying objective and to the point ( so unlike my FLGS, too bad. I was more accused of being a sourpuss than them trying to explain ).

I have learned alot