Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Celtic Strike wrote:If Marker drones got a point drop and became relentless that would solve most of markerlights problems.

Pair it up with a Steathsuit as a stealthy, long range marker light platform and they do become Relentless.


And actually, I think Tau are fine as they are. I've had people tell me they fear me when I play Crisis Suits. I've taken on entire armies and won because all I had left was a Crisis suit and I finished them off. Well worth the points in my hand.

What I think is a bit too glaring of a weakness is the assault. I don't mind being weak in assault (low WS). That's fine. I don't even mind causing few wounds in the assault (S 3, I 2). However, I should not be not good at assault AND cause less wounds AND be easily wiped out in a sweeping advance! That's a triple penalty, and seen as I have literally had only one Assault Marine (no joke. I killed the rest of his squad either by shooting or in previous assaults) wipe out half my tau army in close combat. It was sad. (Then again, I was having a day I couldn't roll above a 3... and I needed 4s to do anything. Happens from time to time.)

Personally, I see Devilfish becoming a little cheaper. Firewarriors probably staying the same. Maybe Marker lights becoming easier to get, and/or maybe cheaper. Maybe Pathfinders becoming troops, but unlikely. And maybe a new mecha suit like the Hazard suits or whatnot you find in forgeworld. I have a feelings that Broadside figure will be updated with the Forgeworld model when it happens. Also, Broadsides should be relentless, just like Terminators. Seen as, on a comparison, Terminators get Strength 8 Heavy 2 Krak missiles, with relentless, good at assault, 5+ ward saves, and a 2+ armour save. Not to mention some (like DA) can get a stormshield and Thunderhammer with the missiles, giving a +3 ward save at no additional point cost. AND they have better BS than the Broadside to boot. Aren't they individually cheaper too? I know only one can have the missile launcher (unless you play Black Templar who can have up to two) and Broadside gets a twinlinked pair per... (Twinlink balances well with the BS 3, then add in marker lights and I don't think that would need to be upgraded any.)

The first thing Tau need revsed is the stupid makerlights.

-Markerlights should be a dice roll that on a 3+ increase the firing units BS.

-Suits should count as troops with Farsight the same way Draigo makes termis troops.

-Devilfish need a price reduction.

-Suit weapons need a price reduction.

-Disruption Pods need a price increase.

-Make Vespid kind of worth taking... along with Ethereals >.<

Tau is a decent dex, but it has a lot of problems from being old, hopefully they can iron out the kinks in 6th.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:You're looking at it purely from a gaming perspective, it needs to be true to fluff too, and that fluff says that Tau don't tend to bunker down and stay in one place; they lay traps and use their rapid redeployment ability to lure enemies in, and they pull troops back under covering fire when the enemy gets too close. Bunkering is the last thing Tau want to do when you take into account that they are vastly inept at close-quarters fighting; letting the enemy come to you is all well and good so long as you're constantly moving away from them, to let the enemy get close to you as Tau is suicide.

Tau do rarely dig in, but it should be noted that the vast majority of Tau settlements are not fortified unless it is under the direst of circumstances, they prefer mobile warfare as noted in the codex. They might well create gunlines, but they'll rarely be rigid.

Heavy 2 might be great in the game, but so are S10 AP1 bolters, however the fluff doesn't support that; to represent Tau, they have to be shown to possess fluidity, and handing them 18" guns to try and satisfy that is not enough.

Like the Codex Astartes, the Tau combat doctrine do has provisions for static warfare, mostly in the form of ambushes. As a result, We need to a hammer, broadsides for armour, Fire Warriors for infantry that can crush the enemy that has been baited by the lure. Therefore, Fire Warriors could be equipped with carbines when on the move and rifles when not.

Just giving them carbines creates a new problem, in that they lack the ranged the warfare side. Carbines are meant for closer shooting (which is why Pathfinders have them, since they need to be close to the enemy to observe them), and would mean chosing between a static gunline, or a fluid gunline that you have to set-up perilously close to the enemy. The aim should be to have a fluid gunline at range.

Ambushes are also far from static warfare; they're static in that traps have to be set and the Tau have to lay in wait, but when the trap is sprung, it's a lightning-fast strike. The static warfare i'm referring to is setting up forward bases and static artlllery positions, fortifications and generally reinforcing the area and bunkering up. The Imperium can afford to do that because they have billions of expendable troops to hold the lines, and terrifying artillery and emplacements.

Seeing as though Fire Warriors are the heart of the Tau military, giving them a weapon that forces them to bunker up would slow the tau armies down immensely. Making them heavy 2 would also disqualify them from getting out of Devilfish and shooting if it moved. As it stands, Fire Warriors use Devilfish to ferry them across the battlefield, where they get out and immediately lay down covering fire for other teams, or laying waste to a weakened position, and then they hop back in and repeat before the enemy can respond; to replicate that on the tabletop with Heavy weapons means that first turn they move and get out, second turn they shoot, third turn they get back in, fourth turn they move and get out, fifth turn they shoot, and then the game ends. The representation of the Tau's fundamental military tactics nets our Fire Warriors two turns of shooting if they don't want to sit tight.

Making them heavy 2 and assault 1 when moving removes the limitation of being heavy weapons in return for less focussed firepower. It also means they can move up on the first turn, get out and shoot, get back in on turn 2, shoot again turn 3, back in turn 4 and shoot again turn 5. 10 less shots on a 10-man unit, but it's at a possible 3 targets instead of 2, and with the choice to bunker up, which would next you an extra 10 shots over just heavy weapons thanks to the first turn shooting. Moving on the first turn, getting out, shooting and staying there for the rest of the game (assuming 5 turns) gives you a total of 90 shots from the unit, as opposed to if they just had Heavy 2, where it'd be 80 shots.

somewhat_here wrote:Pulse Rifles would be better off being Rapid Fire 2 before they ever became Heavy 2.

What do you mean by rapidfire2?

@Avatar720: I agree you are correct. When you say to make rifles heavy2/assault1 wouldn't that make carbines obsolete? with their long range, they will out perform carbines entirely. What I was thinking of was that Fire Warriors would use rifles when holding objectives, something important in the objective-centric arena of 5th edition until whatever 6th edition may change. If someone wanted them to be mobile, they would give them assault2 carbines. That way, they can disembark and fire twice at 18." Instead of the ability to fire once on the move at max range, I think it would be better to allow Pulse Rifles to rapid fire at half of max range instead of 12." They would be outside normal assault range but still not have the excellent reach of a full 30."

rapid fire 2 = 2 shots when stationary, 4 within 12"

somewhat_here wrote:rapid fire 2 = 2 shots when stationary, 4 within 12"

So when 12 Fire Warriors shoot something 12" away, they get 48 shots?

Personally I think rifles should be Assault 1 30", carbines assault 2 18" and burst cannons assault 4 18". Give FW squads options for 2 special weapons-either BCs, MPs or PRs, no mixing allowed to keep in with the theme of specialization, and the ability to reroll 1s to hit.

And give gun drones BS3. An AI designed to shoot things will always outperform a human mind, especially when mounted on a frizbee.

Also:
General cost reduction of 15-20%.
Stealthsuits cost 18 points each and can take any number of Fusion Blasters at +5 points each.
Markerlights are assault 1 and may be fired in addition to any other ranged weapons.
Ion cannons are Heavy 5.
Seeker missiles are large blast, and become BS5 when combined with markerlights. Suddenly Skyrays seem much more deadly...
Tokens are removed; any number of units may fire at a markerlighted unit, each gaining a single benifit for each markerlight hit.
Shas'uis are BS4, 'Vres and 'Els are BS5 and 'Os are BS7.
XV22 Commander.
XV9 Battlesuits.
Pirahnas are TX-42 edition standard.
Tetras.
Barracudas.
BS4 Pathfinders.
Ethereals give all Tau units re-rollable leadership, without the penalties when they die, as well as being accompanied by a selection of retinues at 60 points each:
Fire caste: 5 Shas'ui bodyguards lead by a Shas'Vre (5 LD8, BS4 Fire Warriors and 1 LD9 Fire Warrior)
Air caste: An Air Caste fleet commander (may call in Air Caste bombardment, a S9 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance Barrage of unlimited range, one shot only), and 2 Air Caste communicators (+1 to all reserve rolls for each one)
Earth Caste: An Earth Caste engineer (may deploy D3 Drop Turrets on the turn he arrives on the board, each has armour 12, a twin-linked Plasma Rifle/Missile Pod/Fusion Blaster that DSs on to the board) and 3 Repair Drones (repair a single WD/ Immobilised result on a 5+, plus one for each additional drone)
Water Caste: 1 Water Caste liason (allows you to force your opponent to re-roll the scatter dice for all deep strikes and attacks made by off table forces such as Orbital Bombardments and artillery bombardents) and 2 Water Caste negotiators (-1 to enemy reserve rolls for each negotiator),

twelve ork slugga boys get that many attacks on a charge.

tau have ballistic skill 3.

and have little durability.

Seriously, people on dakka dakka have such baseless knee-jerk reactions. like a firewarrior actually wants to get that close to anything bigger than a grot.

I'm partially on your side "somewhat here." Tau don't need the long reach that people are clamoring for. Pulse Rifles should not be 30" on the move. Even Marines, the supposed "kings" of the table top can't hold their aim while advancing.

4shots per model seems like a bit much, that's stronger than giving every guardsmen a heavy bolter. I still feel that letting Pulse Rifles rapid fire at 15" would make the Tau stronger by giving them an extra round of shooting against fast targets before they get hit by an assault.

Another thing people are forgetting is that offense is not the only way Fire Warriors can be improved. On the defensive side, instead of photon grenades negating the charge-bonus, why not make it so that they confer Hit and Run to the squad and a +1/2 initiative bonus? Also, an infantry version of JSJ, "strategic redeployment" or something, that lets Fire Warriors move d6" after shooting/rapid-firing.

And the last things the Tau need are "special weapons" on Fire Warriors. Better access to markerlights and call down would be better suited. Markerlights becoming assault1 18/24" and heavy1 36" and S6 AP4 blasts w/ no cover would be more welcome than just throwing in new weapons. The Tau are supposed to be a synergistic force that rely on each other to win.

Very true. When it comes to Tau, there is so much that can be done that is outside of the box it's not even funny. The next developer can make them dependent on a robust and revised marker light system, give them horrendous ranged weapons, boost their defenses and maneuverability.

The only point I was really irritated with is when new rules are proposed, everyone assumes the idea would be just be added with the system as it currently is. Many if not most new ideas that are proposed shouldn't be looked at in isolation: they need to be judged with a theoretical mind-set assuming any changes would be balanced by the whole, not the consummate parts individually.

On topic, I like your possible revision of the Photon grenades. Would be a quite different way to handle close combat that stays true to the Tau spirit.

Devilfish: Knock 5 points off the cost

Markerlight: Make the markerlight give an Automatic +1 BS to any friendly Tau Empire unit shooting at a unit that's been hit by a markerlight.

Seeker Missiles: Make Seeker Missiles S 9 and always strike Side Armor(give them an advantage over Krak Missiles)

Skyray: Knock 5 points off the cost. Allow it to mix and match different types of missiles(Penetrator, EMP, Blast, Incendiary, etc)

Ethereal: Give the Etheral's Staff the ability to ignore ALL saves

Broadsides: Allow them to swap their Missile Pods for Networked Markerlights, if they like.(Not sure about Points Cost)

Vespid: Allow them to take either a slightly buffed gun or "Greatclaws" which count as a pair of Lightning Claws.

somewhat_here wrote:Pulse Rifles would be better off being Rapid Fire 2 before they ever became Heavy 2.

Awesome, except rapid fire 2 doesn't exist and would need to be invented just for them.

With marker lights and seeker missiles, what if seeker missiles aren't single-use? So having a vehicle equipped with seekers gives you the ability to convert markerlight hits into seeker shots as many times as you want. With that mindset, fire warrior squads will have some anti-armor ability without screwing with Tau combat doctrines.

And what about giving them an army wide rule called Greater Good? It could give them the ability to shoot into close combat, and/or the ability to stand and shoot when charged. The most outside the box I had for Greater Good was giving them the ability to mess with the opponents consolidate move after wiping out a Tau unit - the Tau player is the one who moves each model the consolidate distance however he wants. It would represent the Tau drawing them into an ambush before sacrificing themselves. Obviously it would slow the enemy down and deny them cover after an assault, to keep them from daisy-chaining from one unit to the next.

I don't think shooting into combat would work, fluff-wise, but getting a last minute shot in before getting mulched would be interesting. The consolidation one is also worth play-testing.

Rapid Fire is fine for the firewarriors, but Rapid Fire as a rule should state that they get full range single shot if they don't move, and get double shots within HALF their weapon range even if they do more. That one change would balance out the Tau well. They are the only one with a 30" rapid fire weapon. Everyone else's rapid fire weapons (from what I can tell) are all 24". That is, instead of making them assault one or whatever else people wanted to do with them.

Also, I can agree strongly with making Pulse Carbines into Assault 2 weapons. It makes sense, as for right now you pay for the pinning which only goes off if the squad causes any wounds, but only once per squad shooting (instead of once per wound).

Markerlights (in my opinion) should remain heavy weapons, with range of 36". However, they should be easier to take, and should have more options for being mounted on support units like a crisis suit, Stealth Suit, and maybe even the Devilfish. (I also feel Crisis Suits should be able to choose not just from a small list, but from most any weapon in the army (except for Railguns). A Rail Rifle option would be interesting, along with a Pulserifle if people wanted. Right on along with some other heavy weapons. They have relentless, yet all their choices (besides the Plasmarifle) are all assault weapons anyway. Why bother give them relentless if they aren't going to be using it? Nothing like paying for nothing... I don't think it would be asking much for have a crisis suit be able to take a marker light as well. That is less firepower they would have to bear.

I also feel that Seeker Missiles shouldn't have a BS, but if you use a Marker light to hit, it should just hit. You don't know how many times I launched a missile, only to roll a 1 after hitting with the marker light. Also, being able to use marker light hits to re-roll a missed shot would be nice too. Do recall the rule that says you can ever only re-roll a single dice once. So it isn't unlimited re-rolls still.

Thank You, that's what I've been saying regarding Fire Warrior weapons. At least one person agrees with me.

Rail Rifle is unnecessary on Crisis Suits because other than the +6" range(Pathfinders can't move and shoot, Crisis can, therefore 12"-6") , a plasma rifle does the same job but better.

If pulse rifles become Suit-mounted they have to be 2 per mount single-linked. Otherwise, it's just one 36" S5 shot.

I think that Seeker Missiles are fine being BS5 to give the enemy a small chance of evading. I understand how you feel, I have your kind of luck whenever I take dangerous terrain tests, the ones just keep coming.

Would giving FWs an extra 3" on their rapid fire suddenly make them better? They'd still have to get perilously close to an enemy for the same amount of shots as an Assault 2 pulse carbine at 3" less. Making them an assault 1 weapon on the move still gives them the range bonus over the pulse carbine.

I personally think that rapid fire should become simply Heavy2/Assault 1 universally, to represent how these weapons can lay down heavy fire from static positions, but also be fired from the hip whilst on the move; it's not something I think should be unique to Pulse Rifles, but it'd be a step in the right direction for me if they got it.

One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

That's a good idea, and I'm surprised no one else has brought that up. I don't think altering the mechanism of the launcher to fire EMPs shouldn't be out of the Tau's reach. The AFP would be a bit harder, since unlike Imperial GLs its a computer guided weapon like the real world XM25.

Avatar 720 wrote:Would giving FWs an extra 3" on their rapid fire suddenly make them better? They'd still have to get perilously close to an enemy for the same amount of shots as an Assault 2 pulse carbine at 3" less. Making them an assault 1 weapon on the move still gives them the range bonus over the pulse carbine.

I personally think that rapid fire should become simply Heavy2/Assault 1 universally, to represent how these weapons can lay down heavy fire from static positions, but also be fired from the hip whilst on the move; it's not something I think should be unique to Pulse Rifles, but it'd be a step in the right direction for me if they got it.

If we gave rifles your statline, that would make carbines obsolete except at the 18" range. I also find it hard to believe that a FW, who is only BS3 can move and fire at 30" when marines who have their integrated autosenses AND centuries of experience can't do that. And giving +3" for their rapid fire will make the difference, because thats one more turn of moving and shooting that their going to get.

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

I like the way this guy is thinking

Pulse Carbine: The Pulse Carbine is a compressed, lightened version of the regular pulse rifle with a grenade launcher built into it, to compensate for the marginally weaker energy pulse. Normally, the launcher fires Pulse Grenades as the target to throw them into disarray. However, squads are often issued with alternate charges for dealing with specific threats. When firing a special grenade, any model which chooses to do so fires only the grenade, not the standard shot, as they must spend their time switching the load in their launcher and sighting on the enemy.

Standard: S: 4 AP: 5 R: 18" Assault 1, Pinning

EMP Grenade: S: - R: 18" Type: Assault 1, EMP*
Any vehicle struck by one of these shots counts as if hit by an EMP Grenade

Airburst Grenade: S: 3 AP: - R: 24" Type: Assault 1, Barrage, Small Blast

You would be amazed at what 3" can do. I could then lay down that fire without being at direct risk of being assaulted by normal troops. Whilst still remaining as true to the current codex as possible. And an Assault 2 Pulse Carbine would be at a more even standing to the Pulse Rifle now because it can deal the same amount of damage at only an extra 3", yet not have the same long range fire support that the 30" pulse rifle would have.

I'm hesitant to create any new weapons for the Tau without having a direct point to ability scale. Seen as GW has that and none of us do, I don't want to play around too much with new weapons if I can help it. I don't mind a few edits here and there though... And seen as the rule being proposed to change the rapid fire ability isn't Tau specific, it would effect everyone (who's weapon ranges are already only 24", making half range for that the 12" it already is). Tau are the only ones with a weapon that can shoot a longer range that isn't half range for the rapid part, and I see the intent of the rule making it half range.

Also, making defensive grenades standard would be nice too. Give them a bit more of a chance to survive an assault. (Or return sweeping advances to how it is in Fantasy, where it's a roll off even, no I bonuses.)

I also find it hard to believe that a FW, who is only BS3 can move and fire at 30" when marines who have their integrated autosenses AND centuries of experience can't do that.

Me wrote:I personally think that rapid fire should become simply Heavy2/Assault 1 universally

If it was changed in 6th edition, then I firmly believe that they should be able to.

It also seems that we cannot change the pulse rifle without causing one of the weapons to become obsolete; changing pulse rifles to be rapid fire at half range is pointless when carbines get the same amount of shots at 3" greater. Why would I put my pulse rifles at 15" when i can easily put carbines at 18" and do the same job?

yet not have the same long range fire support that the 30" pulse rifle would have.

That brings up this little knot of threads:
Buy pulse rifles, go to 15" and rapid fire, find out carbines can do that at 18", buy carbines and go to 18", realise rifles have greater range, buy rifles and got to 30", realise you're not firing at your full potential and go to 15", rinse repeat.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

I like the way this guy is thinking

Pulse Carbine: The Pulse Carbine is a compressed, lightened version of the regular pulse rifle with a grenade launcher built into it, to compensate for the marginally weaker energy pulse. Normally, the launcher fires Pulse Grenades as the target to throw them into disarray. However, squads are often issued with alternate charges for dealing with specific threats. When firing a special grenade, any model which chooses to do so fires only the grenade, not the standard shot, as they must spend their time switching the load in their launcher and sighting on the enemy.

Standard: S: 4 AP: 5 R: 18" Assault 1, Pinning

EMP Grenade: S: - R: 18" Type: Assault 1, EMP*
Any vehicle struck by one of these shots counts as if hit by an EMP Grenade

Airburst Grenade: S: 3 AP: - R: 24" Type: Assault 1, Barrage, Small Blast

I like the thought behind his idea, it's just a matter of figuring out how to pull it off and how many points would it cost to do so. This is why I don't like messing with making new things unless you have enough ability to figure out the points. Marines can be simple as some of their weapon points are easy enough to figure out and you have plenty of references. (I mean, how many different marine codexes are there?)

Standard would still remain 18" S 5 AP 5 (I think) assault 1, pinning for your case.
EMP would follow EMP granade damage chart, at 18".
Airburst... I don't think is a good idea. Even then, I would suggest you follow the actual Airburst weapon profile, with maybe a smaller blast template and possible less range, or leaving it at 18".

And I would treat this like normal Marine special ammunition. They all would have to fire the same ammo, which as far as that airburst shot, would be too deadly (same with EMP, but not different than Swooping Hawks Haywire Packs I suppose). That is unless of course we pursue the assault 2 route, which would make EMP an assault 1 option if it still made it.

Avatar 720 wrote:

BTWs, this all is under the assumption that GW isn't going to just make them rediculous and impossible i.e Gray Knights.

Tau are actually pretty effective against GKs. The downside of our 'quality over quantity' type of shooting is offset somewhat by the fact that GKs are a small and elite army, and there's also the fact that they can't duct tape storm shields onto everything. With our plasma facing at best a wall of 2+/5++, it makes everything a lot easier, especially since (IIRC) those 2+/5++ are about as costly as their 2+/3++ Codex: SM brethren.

The killing power of GKs in CC isn't an issue, since we die in CC anyway; they're paying for their fancy halberds and whatnot in an all-comers army, and it doesn't matter what they use against us, they're essentially paying for unnecessary overkill.

The only really worrying things are Psyriflemen that can instagib our battlesuits (but still, railgun>psyrifleman) and possibly Dreadknight spam if they manage to remove our railguns quickly enough.

Whilst we don't have the firepower of IG, able to throw dice at things until they die, we do have good quality shooting, and that is only made better by the fact we have to kill less models.

Kroot also make a good impact here, thanks to GK's only reasonable shooting capabilities. Stick a unit of Kroot in 4+ cover area terrain and walk them out in front of anything that comes past. Oh no, your expensive silver space marines killed my 70pt unit...

A good amount of psychic powers aren't all that effective either; quicksilver and hammerhand are pointless, and they're the only two I know by name; any other powers are anti-psyker (look, no psykers!) or probably don't do much.

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

You two give me hope. Go get jobs at GW and get to work on this jank.

Avatar 720 wrote:That brings up this little knot of threads:
Buy pulse rifles, go to 15" and rapid fire, find out carbines can do that at 18", buy carbines and go to 18", realise rifles have greater range, buy rifles and got to 30", realise you're not firing at your full potential and go to 15", rinse repeat.

How is this a problem? I think its proper that the two weapon don't work the same way. The Tau aren't space marines and have one gun to do all the basic jobs.

If you want to FoF, take Carbines, if you want a more balanced force, take Rifles.
It's not that hard to grasp.

I'd like to see that, following the Third Expansion and repeated fighting against the Imperium, the Tau manage to copy and produce the same molecular disruption field seen on Power Weapons. Naturally, rather than make close combat weapons out of the tech, they apply it to Projectiles.

AP 2, AP 2 Everywhere

In response to the Rifles half range rapid fire vs pulse carbine, if the carbine became assault 2, it would hold it's own, as well as still being a pinning weapon, which the pulse rife is not. Sure, it's only 3", but sometimes every inch can make a difference.

In responce to AP 2 everywhere... that would make the Tau way overpowered. They could wound anything (just about) with their strength 5 weapons, AND no one would get saves from it with that AP 2. And if you marklight a squad with those weapons to increase BS 3 to BS 5... you now have a 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound (T3, 3+ for T4) AND deny armour saves... well. I hope they spam the invulnerable saves then to make up for this...

It's that whole balance issue. Not to mention AP 2 weapons would be expensive in points.


For the record, I would be all for creating new weapons and adapting like how Tau truly would, however in the same given light, we can't do that rightly without a breakdown of points. If we had a "This ability costs this much points" and "That weapon base costs this much", then maybe new weapons could be devised with ease. Until such a thing happens, I'm content to play around with a few minor things that already exist and leave creation of new weapons for an unknown point system to the professionals.

I was thinking the Power Projectiles wouldn't work with Pulse Weapons, since those are Energy Weapons. Maybe some special Battlesuit gun, but now that I think about it, that's what Plasma's for. Never mind, then.

Also, Pulse Carbines are already out done by the Pulse Rifles. Rapid fire alone, even at 6" less, still hurts more than just one shot that is assault. It'd be a better weapon if say... Tau could assault without making even the Imperial Guard laugh at their efforts. Even forcing someone to be pinned and and having them go last in the assault doesn't help THAT much... and with most leadership being 9-10... pinning doesn't happen very often. (Or in the case of lower leadership armies, Tyranids make their little guys fearless, and Orks leadership can make them fearless if they get large enough squads.) At that point, Pinning is really only great at stopping a squad just before they assault and giving you an extra turn to shoot them up again.

So trying to make the pulse carbine not seem worse than the rifle stat line wise isn't hard, just by being rapid fire with the same stats as a pulse rifle is still better. Just get 6" closer and shoot twice the shots. It's more mathematically sound that way.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:That brings up this little knot of threads:
Buy pulse rifles, go to 15" and rapid fire, find out carbines can do that at 18", buy carbines and go to 18", realise rifles have greater range, buy rifles and got to 30", realise you're not firing at your full potential and go to 15", rinse repeat.

How is this a problem? I think its proper that the two weapon don't work the same way. The Tau aren't space marines and have one gun to do all the basic jobs.

If you want to FoF, take Carbines, if you want a more balanced force, take Rifles.
It's not that hard to grasp.

The problem is that Assault 2 Carbines will always outperform rapid fire pulse rifles that RF at 15", simply because they get the extra 3"; the only way the pulse rifle is better is at range, which defeats the purpose of making them rapid-fire, since if you're aiming to rapid-fire them, you might as well just buy carbines.

If pulse rifles could fire at range whilst on the move, it'd make them a lot more useful so long as they get a single shot (so carbines aren't make redundant), but since making them assault 1 on the move isn't much liked, how are we going to do it? Unless 6th edition allows them to move and fire with a To Hit modifier like Fantasy has, there isn't much we can do to them.

I'm all for making every single rapid-fire weapon able to move and fire with some kind of limitation, whether with shots or modifiers; it'd make them a lot more useful, but would still make carbines superior on the move due to having the extra shot and the pinning ability, and the ability to move and fire at full capacity, but not so superior as to make the rifle useless for mobile squads. Applying it globally to Rapid Fire weapons also means we don't suddenly get better targeting than Marines.

Pulse Carbines are suppose to out preform the rifles at close range. If you intend to close in with the foe, then the rifles aren't a weapon you should be looking into. Rifles are made for long range support. They get rapid fire to show that you can't line up shots easily on the move, but they can still be fired at the hip for less range, but more shots. Consider them like assault rifles. If you aim and shoot a single shot, it's very accurate. However, you can fire more than one shot, but the more you shoot, the less accurate you are, but the more bullets you throw out there to hit something with.

Basically, to sum up my whole paragraph, if you want a weapon that can dish out wounds on the move, Pulse Carbines are the weapons you should be looking at. If you want to rapid fire someone, (with our suggested changes) then you would be using the Pulse Rifle in the wrong intended way. Remember, Tau like to have each thing fill in a certain roll and adapt roles to fit the situation. Not make a universal weapon to handle anything. (If that was the case, then all crisis suits would have a missile pod for long range support and a plasma rifle for anti-armour as standard, instead of being completely customizable for the situation.)