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Tesunie wrote:Pulse Carbines are suppose to out preform the rifles at close range. If you intend to close in with the foe, then the rifles aren't a weapon you should be looking into. Rifles are made for long range support. They get rapid fire to show that you can't line up shots easily on the move, but they can still be fired at the hip for less range, but more shots. Consider them like assault rifles. If you aim and shoot a single shot, it's very accurate. However, you can fire more than one shot, but the more you shoot, the less accurate you are, but the more bullets you throw out there to hit something with.

Basically, to sum up my whole paragraph, if you want a weapon that can dish out wounds on the move, Pulse Carbines are the weapons you should be looking at. If you want to rapid fire someone, (with our suggested changes) then you would be using the Pulse Rifle in the wrong intended way. Remember, Tau like to have each thing fill in a certain roll and adapt roles to fit the situation. Not make a universal weapon to handle anything. (If that was the case, then all crisis suits would have a missile pod for long range support and a plasma rifle for anti-armour as standard, instead of being completely customizable for the situation.)

The downside of the assault rifle analogy is that it doesn't suddenly lose half of its range, which is essentially what Rapid Fire weapons get; an assault rifle will simply become less accurate, and I think that Assault 1 represents this, by keeping the range, but giving fewer shots to show just how many are going to waste; think of it like shots in football, a team can have X amount of shots, but only Y will be on target, with Z scoring goals, my suggestions works the same way, giving you X shots, Y shots that have the potential to do damage, and Z shots that actually did.

I'm also not suggesting a universal catch-all weapon, just one that is a decent representation of what it actuall does. Firing on the move from range does not make it a universal weapon, it simply represents the weapon. If you move around a lot, then the carbine will always be better; if it were as universal as you claim, then that would not be the case. There is a difference between allowing a unit to shoot as it moves from one piece of cover to the other, and making it a weapon meant to be fired on the move; simply having the capacity to do it does not make it the only weapon you should take.

Then what's up with the Bolter? Or any of the other rapid fire weapons? Do moving suddenly make them loose range magicly? An assault riffle fired like a sniper rifle will only shoot one shot. Any more in a given period of time will ruin the shots afterward due to recoil. This makes hitting targets farther away with anything more than a single shot impossible or unlikely. However, when brought to bear on the foe in a raid, the same assault rifles can be shot many times faster, as you are closer to your target and thus the recoil throwing off your shots isn't as impacting as your target is closer (larger in the scopes). That is my best equivalent real life explanation to how rapid fire works for anything in the game. Otherwise, does a magic mist cover their vision when they move that prevents them from shooting their weapon at full range?

What you are saying is that they get the same shots off weather they are moving or not, and that longer range shots don't take any extra time to line up... or account for weapon recoil.

Also, your football analogy is shots done over a longer span of time. We are talking about number of shots done in a second, or microsecond. Not done once every five minutes or whatever. We aren't talking about throwing three balls and seeing where they land if you where standing still or moving. Not to mention putting a time limit on it.

Avatar 720 wrote:The downside of the assault rifle analogy is that it doesn't suddenly lose half of its range, which is essentially what Rapid Fire weapons get; an assault rifle will simply become less accurate, and I think that Assault 1 represents this, by keeping the range, but giving fewer shots to show just how many are going to waste; think of it like shots in football, a team can have X amount of shots, but only Y will be on target, with Z scoring goals, my suggestions works the same way, giving you X shots, Y shots that have the potential to do damage, and Z shots that actually did.

I'm also not suggesting a universal catch-all weapon, just one that is a decent representation of what it actuall does. Firing on the move from range does not make it a universal weapon, it simply represents the weapon. If you move around a lot, then the carbine will always be better; if it were as universal as you claim, then that would not be the case. There is a difference between allowing a unit to shoot as it moves from one piece of cover to the other, and making it a weapon meant to be fired on the move; simply having the capacity to do it does not make it the only weapon you should take.

With that explanation, think I understand what you're saying. In which case Heavy2/Assault1 would be appropriate.

The problem it seems, is what the Rapid Fire rule should be. The ability to fire long-range sighted shots and fire more quickly from the hip at close range, or the to pump out a steady stream of shots on the move and more when stationary.

In less words, are you able to fire more on the move by "quick scoping" or stationary because you don't have to compensate for your movement in addition to your targets?

Okay... I'd have to ask if you've ever:
A) Shot a rifle yourself.
B) Seen police or real world marines preform a raid.
C) Seen them use the same weapon from the raid for a long range shot.

If you've ever shot a rifle yourself (I have, but it's been many years and I'm not a fan of it), then you would realize that it takes time to line up a shot and shoot. Even a semi-automatic rifle like the one I used needs more time to line up after a shot to shoot something far away. Same goes for if I moved. If I moved, I need to stop again to align my shot back up for farther targets. However, if something was closer where I could eyeball it better (because it is closer and is thus bigger to me), then I could pop off a few shots off and recoil wouldn't affect my overall accuracy of the shots.

If you've seen a raid, the cops or marines normally hold their guns to their shoulders, they walk forward and shot a burst, three or four shots. If they need to aim, they stop to aim.

Then if you've seen an officer snipe with those same weapons, they either prop the gun up, or stand still to line up a shot, and then shoot with only one shot.

Personally I think the biggest issue w/ fire warriors is that in order to move and fire they must be w/in 12" of the enemy which is inherently fatal you target has so much as a single model alive at the end of your shooting phase. They can give assault weapons with multiple shots and more than 12" Range to GK and tau don't fight anywhere remotely close to GK level of fighting (I'm usually quite impressed to see a tau unit ever inflict so much as a single casualty in a given assault phase.

Well... if we want to see it as 15" would make the pulse carbine too useless, then keep the pulse rifle the same and make the carbine into an assault 2 weapon. That way, you get two wounds up to 18 inches, but lose out on the range.

I still feel that the carbine needs more attacks to even make it worth the change from rifles. Otherwise even a 12" rapid fire is better. (If so many things didn't have high leadership or provide fearless to low leadership models, the carbine might be able to actually hold it's own a bit more. Stop an assault from happening for a turn maybe. And do recall that assault marines have a threat range of 18"...)

Tesunie wrote:Okay... I'd have to ask if you've ever:
A) Shot a rifle yourself.
B) Seen police or real world marines preform a raid.
C) Seen them use the same weapon from the raid for a long range shot.

If you've ever shot a rifle yourself (I have, but it's been many years and I'm not a fan of it), then you would realize that it takes time to line up a shot and shoot. Even a semi-automatic rifle like the one I used needs more time to line up after a shot to shoot something far away. Same goes for if I moved. If I moved, I need to stop again to align my shot back up for farther targets. However, if something was closer where I could eyeball it better (because it is closer and is thus bigger to me), then I could pop off a few shots off and recoil wouldn't affect my overall accuracy of the shots.

If you've seen a raid, the cops or marines normally hold their guns to their shoulders, they walk forward and shot a burst, three or four shots. If they need to aim, they stop to aim.

Then if you've seen an officer snipe with those same weapons, they either prop the gun up, or stand still to line up a shot, and then shoot with only one shot.

From a war perspective as opposed to an armed response or police perspective, moving and shooting doesn't always constitue everyone firing whilst moving. Moving and shooting in 40k to me is something more along the lines of half the squad laying down supressing fire, as the other half moves to the new location, and then they lay down fire so the rest of their squad can move. Supressing fire has to be semi-precise, and has to at least have a good chance of hitting the enemy, otherwise they can just take shots at the moving squad.

This is completely different from the entire unit firing on the move, and affords half the unit at a time some form of shooting that isn't pin-point precise, but isn't just wildly firing either.

Using modern weapons to argue recoil is also quite useless. Where present military tactics can be accepted to be used widely even in 40k, you can't argue that a 41st millenium alien plasma weapon has the same drawbacks as a 21st century human solid projectile one. We don't know just how much recoil pulse rifles generate, and the sheer difference between pulse rifles and present day guns is so vast that it's largely impractical to compare them.

There's also the fact that raids aren't warzone fire-fights. Raids are fast-paced by nature to avoid the chance of anyone escaping, but warzones are not only on a significantly larger scale, but also don't share the same pace as close-quarters raids.

I think the current way tau play is how I'd like it to stay. That style of fluid motion and control of the flow of battle is very enjoyable to me and quite unlike most armies. Also it's one of the few armies which actually play like their fluff for the most part.

I feel like tau is closer to good than most people give it credit for. The issue is that people want tau to march forward and battal, but should instead be steering the enemy into bad positions.

I'm convinced the codex could be good with a series of very minor tweaks. A lot of this has been said already, but here's my 2 cents.

Make markerlights cheaper, more prevalent.

Make carbines a liiitle bit better (avatar's idea of assault 2 seems spot on)

Give fire warriors something to buy at higher points, maybe an improved save or something. They need to be able to cut it above 2000.

I don't think it would be necessarily to give us higher BS if the markerlights were better and cheaper.

I still think the suits BS should be base 4 if we're paying 25 pts for a naked one.

BS 4 on the Shas'vres at the very least.

Indeedy

This what brought up in a different thread, but the Tau can also expand their combat options using drones. One suggestion was a Detonator Drone that blew up and allowed a unit to automatically break from combat. Another was a flechette drone. I myself added that Shield Drones confer a 5+ cover save to their attached unit like the KFF.

acekevin8412 wrote:This what brought up in a different thread, but the Tau can also expand their combat options using drones. One suggestion was a Detonator Drone that blew up and allowed a unit to automatically break from combat. Another was a flechette drone. I myself added that Shield Drones confer a 5+ cover save to their attached unit like the KFF.

I agree and like these ideas, but I see a recurring theme. In true horde fashion, a number of units are meant to be expendable, but need to have something scary worth supporting. Broadsides are certainly scary against anything with AV or anything vulnerable to instant death, but against scary units like TH/SS Terminators, there isn't much the Tau can do. Tau need something efficiently-priced and outstanding offensively to balance out all of the stuff that's economy-priced and mediocre.

For armies like DE, MSU works for that. Since Tau's theme precludes being good in assault, and there are lots of scary-fast mechanized armies and scary-efficient deep striker armies, the Tau need to be scary good at shooting. As in if you aren't in cover, you can kiss your rear goodbye. Right now Tau will shoot the pants off of anything with a 5+ or worse armor save. And other than Tau, very few basic troops have a 4+, so that leaves MEQ-killers, which inconveniently are by far the most common troop encountered in 40k.

I think that the crown of best shooting belongs to the IG. Veteran Tau players, of which I am not, I just follow a lot of forums, believe that the Tau should the kings of movement. Not speed, that's taken by the Eldars. The ability to reposition and dominate the movement phase is what let the Tau win.

Wargear/weapons like the Thunderfire Cannon to deny movement would be interesting, especially if it was a new type of seeker missile.

The main problem isn't that the Tau aren't shooty enough, almost our entire army is S5+. However, with everything deepstriking or fast, we don't have the time to bear our heavy guns to bear. The IG can hide behind a wall of tanks and bodies, we don't have that luxury.

The Thunderfire Cannon comment just gave me an idea - what is the Tau had something like a combination of Servo-skull, Drop pod, and Warp Quake?

Little 40ish point vehicles that deep strike, with an inertial guidance-type ability, and you can take multiples in the same FOC pick (or maybe you can pick 1 for every Fire Warrior squad in your army). The model would be low-profile vertically to not be horribly obtrusive LOS-wise. And it could make everything within 12" count as difficult and dangerous terrain for the enemy while it's still alive. AV 11-12, open-topped, immobile, and make it a seeker missile platform with a markerlight.

Tau need something with fireports/open topped

Everyone else has one

Except friggin craftwold eldar

Jefffar wrote:One thing I like about Tau is that they invent new tech to deal with new problems. The Rail Rifle being a prime example.

I think that rather than upgrading the Tau themselves, we need to focus on updating their tech.

For example, the Tau Pulse Carbine has a Photon Grenade Launcher built into it. That is the justification for it having the Pinning attribute.

Well why wouldn't the Tau also develop a launch-able version fo the EMP Grenade to give their firewarriors better anti-vehicle punch? Why wouldn't the Tau develop a light version of the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector's explosive shell to give their firewarrirors a little more anti-horde/indirect fire ability?

If you look at the original Tau codex to the T:E one, there is a tech progression. So, fluffwise that would allow the special weapons to be more widespread in the new list and be less dangerous to the troopers because of improvements/refinements in the design and then introduce more special issue wargear. Can you imagine a crisis suit with a suped up cyclic Ion blaster that is 24" S6 AP3 Assault 5, or a Improved Airbursting Frag Launcher that is 24" or 36" S5 AP4 Heavy 2 Large Blast/Barrage on a Broadside. Or even new rules for the Ion gun effect doing something extra This just screams opportunity.

Main issue is Crisis at multiple wounds with T4, and consistantly very poor assault performance (which I'd like to see improve to just average to bad performance)

Retarder Field Missile: 45 points, may only be attached to Skyray Gunships

A player may expend a Markerlight Token to fire a RFM at the marked unit. The weapon has the following profile and is fired at BS 4(can be boosted with further markerlights)

S: - R: Infinite Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast, Stasis*, One Shot

Stasis: Units hit by this rule in the following Movement and Assault Phases move 5" less than they normally would per phase, regardless of wargear or special moves. Vehicles have their speed levels reduced by 5"(1" combat speed, 1-6" Cruising speed, etc, They still count as moving as if they'd moved the normal amount. In Assault, the unit is at -3 to Initiative(minimum 1) and Weapon Skill(Minimum 0) Walkers hit with these weapons are struck on their rear armor in Assault.

Fluff explanation: These work on the same mechanics as imperial Stasis Fields, but they simply slow down time rather than stopping it altogether.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Retarder Field Missile: 45 points, may only be attached to Skyray Gunships

A player may expend a Markerlight Token to fire a RFM at the marked unit. The weapon has the following profile and is fired at BS 4(can be boosted with further markerlights)

S: - R: Infinite Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast, Stasis*, One Shot

Stasis: Units hit by this rule in the following Movement and Assault Phases move 5" less than they normally would per phase, regardless of wargear or special moves. Vehicles have their speed levels reduced by 5"(1" combat speed, 1-6" Cruising speed, etc, They still count as moving as if they'd moved the normal amount. In Assault, the unit is at -3 to Initiative(minimum 1) and Weapon Skill(Minimum 0) Walkers hit with these weapons are struck on their rear armor in Assault.

Fluff explanation: These work on the same mechanics as imperial Stasis Fields, but they simply slow down time rather than stopping it altogether.

I'd just call it stasis missiles, Retarder just sounds... off (I know what it actually means, but still)

Pulse Rifle Heavy 1 30' Assault 2 15', Str 4 Rending
Pulse Carbine Assault 2 18' Str 4 Rending + a little extra rule
Burst Cannon Assault 3 18' Str 5 Rending (a mini assault cannon)
If all our weapons are being tarred with the same brush as plasma weapons (grey knight FAQ) we might as well get some of the armour penetration for our trouble
Streamline markerlights
Give our vehicles a decent side sponson option (two missile pods maybe, seeing as all imperials get lascannon side sponsons)
Make seeker missiles hit side armour, combined with its ignoring all cover barring turbo, KFF etc it d be great.
Maybe BS4 suits

New units
HQ - stealth suit, fix ethereals
Elite - Demuirg Str 3, Tou 4, 3+ armour, couple of power fists
Troops - Pathfinders Infiltrate and scout ( i m tired of having our heavy weapon scouts skip on alongside our broadsides in dawn of war)
Open topped 6 man transport, give our fire warriors a firing platform
Fast Attack - tetras
Heavy - Barracudas

Everyone says Str 5 is great but BS 4 Str 4 is exactly the same. You don t get the extra -1 armour like in warhammer. Str 4 rending would let our troops choices possibly damage light to medium vehicles and terminators. We might even give them some markerlight support.

Then make the units competitive against each other with points costs and the like.

Avatar 720 wrote:From a war perspective as opposed to an armed response or police perspective, moving and shooting doesn't always constitue everyone firing whilst moving. Moving and shooting in 40k to me is something more along the lines of half the squad laying down supressing fire, as the other half moves to the new location, and then they lay down fire so the rest of their squad can move. Supressing fire has to be semi-precise, and has to at least have a good chance of hitting the enemy, otherwise they can just take shots at the moving squad.

This is completely different from the entire unit firing on the move, and affords half the unit at a time some form of shooting that isn't pin-point precise, but isn't just wildly firing either.

Using modern weapons to argue recoil is also quite useless. Where present military tactics can be accepted to be used widely even in 40k, you can't argue that a 41st millenium alien plasma weapon has the same drawbacks as a 21st century human solid projectile one. We don't know just how much recoil pulse rifles generate, and the sheer difference between pulse rifles and present day guns is so vast that it's largely impractical to compare them.

There's also the fact that raids aren't warzone fire-fights. Raids are fast-paced by nature to avoid the chance of anyone escaping, but warzones are not only on a significantly larger scale, but also don't share the same pace as close-quarters raids.

A raid works very similar to a warzone, just the assaulting side has far more control over what happens. True it is faster and in closed environment more often than not. Also, what you suggest as far as cover fire would be different. Cover fire is not intended to actually hit your foes with any degree of accuracy. Cover fire is actually shots fired roughly in your opponent's direction with the intention of keeping your foes heads down and afraid to fire till your squad makes it into position. Most Cover Fire doesn't even hit the foe, and if it does, it's probably by luck. Look it up on a wiki if you want and come back with the results. If it says that cover/suppression fire is highly accurate, then I will correct my standing.

Also, as far as half the squad moving and the other half staying behind for a moment longer to provide this fire, though is an actual military strategy, do recall this is a board game and they look to simplify real life, and that it is represented in other ways. Going from your statement, we might as well drop the rule that says if even one model of your squad moves that the whole squad counts as moving. You say it shouldn't, but people where moving a couple models without heavy weapons before that rule and it was deemed as too confusing or was being abused in an unseen way.

To lay down cover fire in the game, you would need to represent it with two squads. Seen as Marines probably show current military tactics, I'll work with a rule that actually have in their codex. Combat squads. That way, you get you half the squad running forward and the other half can sit back and provide pin-point cover fire...

As far as recoil on a comparison goes, I kinda figure that is why it is considered a rapid fire weapon. And we don't know if pulse rifles have a recoil. When you find one to test and see if it does, let me know? Till then, I'll be presuming that it does have one making it rapid fire. Though, if you want to get into recoil and such, the Railgun has no recoil according to fluff in the books and stuff. Yet, Dawn of War shows it with a recoil, and it's considered a heavy weapon too in the boardgame. Make sense of that...

Also, when comparing the table top game to real life you already come across many problems. In real life, I wouldn't be able to see every model on the field. Some could be hidden from my knowledge. Not usually represented in the game well. Like snipers are usually very hard to find. In the table top game, they are clearly visible. We also talk of weapons that do not exist. A plasma cannon, does it send out a bolt of lighting like energy with ground out in a small area, zapping foes to death? Is it like a ball of super charged gas (what plasma really is) which somehow magically stays in a ball shaped form and explodes once it comes into contact with something cooler than it (excluding air magically). A Meltagun. Is it a high strength lazer? Is it more like a mobile mini microwave of death? It sends out charge particles melting the amrour of vehicles and other assorted effects. Why do grenades, something deemed deadly in todays world, seem to only keeps people's heads in cover for a moment longer to get you into assault without being shot up? Why is it when people assault you through cover you don't get to shoot at them and instead the people assaulting you get to go last?

There are many game workings that could use more definition. Then again, some are clearly explained. The best we can do is trust that the rules have a certain standing to them. And as far as weapons go for comparison, the best we can do it to compare them to a weapon that already exists and is widely understood. Like a pistol is a pistol, can shoot at long ranges, but really only accurate at short ranges. Shown in the game with a range of 12". Any shot beyond that is deemed too unreliable to be accurate.

Our good friends the Kroot could also use a revision.

Bringing in the evolutionary adaptations from the Apoc Formation would be interesting.

For those that haven't seen the formation, here's the link:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf

They can also develop the psychic potential of the Kroot by giving Shapers minor psychic powers like in their Chapter Approved Codex.