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blood reaper wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

Are you Trollin? I mean that's ridiculous.

Hope you don't mean me The only thing i do with trolls is slay them! (ask my gamemaster, i crit them dead is ridiculous..now hes sending giants against our group x.x)

No the guy saying Abbadon would have been welcomed back.

blood reaper wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

Are you Trollin? I mean that's ridiculous.

It depends on how persuasive Abbadon is. They didn't know his full involvement until far later.

See the short story Rebirth from Age of Darkness especially the last paragraph.

The one surviving Thousand Son.

'Knowledge is Power'

The Dim Red light of the Magma fires catching on his shoulder guard exposing the raven head of his corvidae cult discipline.

Blood Raven.

I used to like em just fine. Then they started "Gifting" themselves gear from other chapters.



The codex astartes does not support this action.

-Prepares the successor chapter and PDF legions-

heresy4life wrote:See the short story Rebirth from Age of Darkness especially the last paragraph.

The one surviving Thousand Son.

'Knowledge is Power'

The Dim Red light of the Magma fires catching on his shoulder guard exposing the raven head of his corvidae cult discipline.

Blood Raven.

Which is a single Spacemarine and not an entire chapter ( in fact, one would have to wonder, from where would the 1kson get the geneseed as well as the political backing and equipment to create an entire chapter? Why hasn't the fleshchange claimed him or his "new" chapter? Why hasn't the Mechanicus ever noticed that the geneseed comes from a traitorlegion? ). Whatever might be the Bloodraven's origin, it is and will in all likelyhood remain unknown ( for which we can all be grateful cause BLUDDREHVENS ARE 1K SONS is nearly as trite as ALPHA LEGION ARE LOYALISTS, REALY! ).

In fact the smartest way to create a bridge between the 1k sons and the Bloodravens would be to make the later the inheritor's of the former's philosophy, just like the "modern" Xanthide faction within the Inquisition follows the example set by Inquisitor Xanthus millenia ago.

Davian Thule is a troll
Shas'o Kais "surrender! If not for you, then for the greater good"
Davian Thule "The Grater Good is comming at you from my bolter *trollvoice*"

I actually think it's humorous how vehemently some of you are arguing against the T-Son/B-Raven relationship when no-one questions the background/loyalty of chapters that basically have NOTHING supporting their origin.

I mean really, how hard would it have been for the surviving T-sons to hide out for any amount of time (while retrofitting their gear and repainting everything) and to reappear later as loyalist marines? (Post)Heresy was a time of utter turmoil.

The Imperium is so inefficient it's laughable. As is the faith/trust of SM fans.

The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Get over yourselves. The T-sons/B-raven relationship is FAR from being the most unbelievable/unlikely storyline in 40k.

The Thousand Sons/Blood Raven Relationship-Speculation is actually one of the things that make the blood ravens very interesting to me. As well as the Alpha Legion possibly still being secretly loyal. It's one of those Twists that make the WH40K universe more interesting

Viersche wrote:The Thousand Sons/Blood Raven Relationship-Speculation is actually one of the things that make the blood ravens very interesting to me. As well as the Alpha Legion possibly still being secretly loyal. It's one of those Twists that make the WH40K universe more interesting

This. I'm also a fan of the idea that they weren't founded by the 1k sons in any way, but were part of a covert founding using tithed geneseed. Its a much cleaner explanation as to why they dont know who their primarch is.

The point i was trying to make from Rebirth, was that the HH Series has now dropped two blatant hints about the Blood Ravens/Thousand Sons link.

In Rebirth it hinted at many Thousand Sons Ships still out there and that there were more Marines aboard the ship that dropped the squad onto Prospero. Therefore plenty of Space marines to take geneseed from.

The Imperium (via Malcador) welcomed Luna Wolves, Word Eaters, Iron Warriors and Death Guard into service so why not Loyal Thousand Sons (since they never actually turned traitor). Malcador would have renamed the Legion and hidden their origin as due to Nikea the remaining Loyal legions would not have accepted any Thousand Sons loyal or not.

The Thousand Sons that remained on Prospero didnt use their talents as much as those that left, so they werent at risk from the curse. It was only when they unleashed their talents without enough practice during the sack of Prospero that they fell to the curse. So if the Ship based Marines were the same then they could have the curse under control.

I like the whole "maybe derived from the Thousand Sons geneseed".

SickSix wrote:The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting example, given that they more than slightly resemble the Night Lords...

English Assassin wrote:

SickSix wrote:The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting example, given that they more than slightly resemble the Night Lords...

Who? The Charcharodons?

Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

I kinda like the idea of the Blood Ravens being descended fromt the Thousand Sons.

I think it's pretty stupid to ignore the massive hints we have been given over the years.

CorvidMP wrote:Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

Or just skeptical of the idea since there's a whole bunch of things that don't add up.

iproxtaco wrote:

CorvidMP wrote:Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

Or just skeptical of the idea since there's a whole bunch of things that don't add up.

But hey, this is 40K.

Several points of contention:
1) "Knowledge is Power, guard it well" was a common phrase used during the Great Crusade/Reunification Era. That's not really a "strong indicator" of one thing or another, and to cite it as some kind of definitive proof is silly.

2) The misconception that Thousand Sons weren't "declared traitors". They were. The Emperor okayed the Wolves going after them, but Horus seemingly 'altered' the orders from "Bring Magnus back to Terra to face punishment" to "Kill 'em all!".

3) The idea that the Blood Ravens are "psyker heavy" meaning that every single member of the Chapter can shoot lightning bolts out of his bum and fire from his eyes. They may have larger amounts of psykers, but not all will be up to "Librarian grade". The Blood Raven psykers were renowned for their ability to see the future, which they incorporated in their battle planning.

4) The idea that Malcador would take a large amount of individuals from a known, tainted(incurably tainted mind you) source. The examples of Garro, Loken, etc are individuals who fought their way out of their Legions when the Legions went traitor. They were rigorously screened, and what's more their Legions were not renowned for being subversive or actively lying to the Imperium at large.

Kanluwen wrote:Several points of contention:
1) "Knowledge is Power, guard it well" was a common phrase used during the Great Crusade/Reunification Era. That's not really a "strong indicator" of one thing or another, and to cite it as some kind of definitive proof is silly.

Xaphen of the Word Bearers uses it in First Heretic, just in case people wanted some proof.

2) The misconception that Thousand Sons weren't "declared traitors". They were. The Emperor okayed the Wolves going after them, but Horus seemingly 'altered' the orders from "Bring Magnus back to Terra to face punishment" to "Kill 'em all!".

Certainly. IIRC, at least one source has them fighting on Terra, summoning Daemons.

3) The idea that the Blood Ravens are "psyker heavy" meaning that every single member of the Chapter can shoot lightning bolts out of his bum and fire from his eyes. They may have larger amounts of psykers, but not all will be up to "Librarian grade". The Blood Raven psykers were renowned for their ability to see the future, which they incorporated in their battle planning.

Can be explained by the fact that it was their recruitment world that had a large concentration of psykers. The Thousand Sons geneseed is what caused their high numbers of psykers.

4) The idea that Malcador would take a large amount of individuals from a known, tainted(incurably tainted mind you) source. The examples of Garro, Loken, etc are individuals who fought their way out of their Legions when the Legions went traitor. They were rigorously screened, and what's more their Legions were not renowned for being subversive or actively lying to the Imperium at large.

Although the locations of Thousand Sons ships sent away from Prospero isn't known. Magnus told them to move to specific locations and their assault on Fenris included some ships. I'm guessing Magnus met them later.

purplefood wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

It's probably just for gameplay reasons, I mean you can't have all the marines shooting lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't know why anyone would hate the blood ravens, their relics own chapter, and I think they have done a lot of cool things with them over the course of the games. Which I don't understand why they went with ultramarines in space marine. At least blood ravens were represented in that game though.

Space marines campaign would have been cooler if you were a blood raven, and not an ultramarine

How would it have made any difference whatsoever?

for one, the Blood raven paint scheme is better IMO

secondly, I wouldn't have to hear "authorization astartes ultra" all the time

Third, relic would have been using their own chapter instead of the poster boy ultra marines

fourth, I just like the blood ravens

True, the Blood Ravens ARE like their own thing.
In multiplayer, I use Blood Ravens

As do I forruner_mercy

And now that I know what Libby's can do on the table top, I have much greater respect for them.

I used to like them mostly because of the color. I thought it was a nice shade of red. The mystery thing gets kind of old though.

Their color is very nice indeed

I agree the whole "mysterious uber secret of secret-dum" thing is kind of over played in 40k haha

English Assassin wrote:Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Is this actually a cliche? How many loyalist descendants of traitor legions are there, exactly?

Ouze wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Is this actually a cliche? How many loyalist descendants of traitor legions are there, exactly?

The Blood Ravens my not actually be descended from them. It is just implied. So as far as I know...none, with one implied.

There was Nathaniel Garro, who created the Inquisition, who was a loyalist Death Guard.

Anyway, I really hope the 6th ed SM book has DreadGabe as an SC!