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Cerebrium wrote:There was Nathaniel Garro, who created the Inquisition, who was a loyalist Death Guard.

That's one loyal marine from a traitor chapter, were talking about a whole chapter starting from the geneseed from a traitor legion...

So true.

I think it is quite plausible, I mean descended form a chapter that worships Tzeentch? The Changer of Ways gets his hands on a chapter of psykers and so many of you think it's too far fetched for him to see what fun would happen if some run aways went loyalist? I bet he's having a right old giggle over it all.

Anyway, I much prefer this theory to the "Omfgz lolzzz da Blud Rayvins are one of the lost leejunns!!!!!!!11one" That really makes my blood boil when people spurt that little gem out.
"They don't know their Primarch and they look cool... Hmm, they must be a lost legion!" No, just no.

Descended from the Thousand Sons? Yes, I like that theory. Even if my take on whole story is wrong, Mars still have all the traitor gene seed in stasis don't they? Hints towards the Cursed Founding maybe?

In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (probably)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads (though NOT the whole chapter, contrary to some peoples views)
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked). This is stupid, but true.
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

bombboy1252 wrote:
fourth, I just like the blood ravens

Me to brother

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (right after the heresy)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

Brother Coa wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
fourth, I just like the blood ravens

Me to brother

Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (right after the heresy)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

I think he's already on his way....he just....knows somehow...

iproxtaco wrote:

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

Why? Almost every single point in my post is 100%, unarguable, fact.
It PROVES nothing whatsoever, hence me stating that it is just my opinion, but it is fact nonetheless.

People can argue all they want whether they are or aren't 1kSons descendants, but there is plenty of very cicumstancial evidence, and some pretty damned good evidence would have to be found to change my opinion.

/shrug


In fact, I just read his earlier post, and agree with every point he made. It's not really got anything to do with my post....

Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

Kanluwen wrote:Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

There he is

Kanluwen wrote:Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

Absolutely. Once again, I agree with everything you said.
It is all very circumstantial, and proves nothing at all, as I already said. Twice.

And in my opinion, they are desended from the Thousand Sons.

Are we even arguing? I'm sure we're saying the same thing, but with a different conclusion (which, both being opinions, again isn't really an argument).

We're having a civil discussion like gentlemen.

Fancy gentlemen with monocles, at that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a sidenote: it looks like the link in my signature is no longer active. Gragh. Now I need to find another place for the Blood Ravens Index Astartes article or type it all up my dang self.

I always wanted a monocle, how spiffing!

Actually, I'll take the oppurtunity to say that discussions thus far on Dakka have been considerably more civilised than I was led to believe :p

Can i have a 'stache too? :3

Also: Damnit, but the more i read the forum the less i want to read the DoW novels.. xD

Do not ever read the Dawn of War novels.

Ever.

No, really don't. Seriously.
ESPECIALLY the first one.

I forced myself to read them all, because I try to read all the fluff, but goddamn....i've had root canal surgery less painful.

Why were they bad?

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

I don't know, I just keep hearing how bad they are and something about back flipping terminators...

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

Horribly written, absolutely no research on the background or anything else.
Some highlights (bearing in mind there are many more things, i haven't read them for years).

A Razorback transporting 10 terminators, then turning into a rhino, then back to a Razorback within 3 paragraphs.
A Dark Reaper that rides a Wave Serpent while shooting things, like a surfboard.
Terminators doing handsprings.
The Blood Raven flagship having a second astronomicon type beacon on it, which NOBODY HAS EVER NOTICED.

I honestly cant recall others, my brain has blanked it out. But there is so much more.

Harrower wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

Horribly written, absolutely no research on the background or anything else.
Some highlights (bearing in mind there are many more things, i haven't read them for years).

A Razorback transporting 10 terminators, then turning into a rhino, then back to a Razorback within 3 paragraphs.
A Dark Reaper that rides a Wave Serpent while shooting things, like a surfboard.
Terminators doing handsprings.
The Blood Raven flagship having a second astronomicon type beacon on it, which NOBODY HAS EVER NOTICED.

I honestly cant recall others, my brain has blanked it out. But there is so much more.

That...is just WTF stuff right there.
Seriously, do some research so you don't go putting TERMIES into RAZORBACKS.

Man..seriously, i hate it when someone just does whatever the feth they want, and then it's called "canon" because someone paid money for the license...yeeeey...grml..
I wish, i really wish, that there's someone at GW checking all the gak that gets released, just throwing stuff like that mentioned above into the fire, striking that authors from the BL list..forever -.-
(and also promote Matt "Because feth you, thats why" Ward to Matt "Lunchlady" Ward xD)

iDevour wrote:Man..seriously, i hate it when someone just does whatever the feth they want, and then it's called "canon" because someone paid money for the license...yeeeey...grml..
I wish, i really wish, that there's someone at GW checking all the gak that gets released, just throwing stuff like that mentioned above into the fire, striking that authors from the BL list..forever -.-
(and also promote Matt "Because feth you, thats why" Ward to Matt "Lunchlady" Ward xD)

Comparing Matt Ward to C.S. Goto is like comparing Shakespeare to Danielle Steel.

With Ward, he actually does write good fluff.
The concepts are sound and canonical. The execution, however, is not necessarily the best.

C.S. Goto just had no grasp of the concepts, the style, or anything relating to 40k beyond "Hurr Sphess Mahreenz".

Agreed with Kan. Ward's fluff is decent, just executed badly.

C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage. Same with Ian Watson.

bombboy1252 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

I don't know, I just keep hearing how bad they are and something about back flipping terminators...

C.S. Goto.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
With Ward, he actually does write good fluff.
The concepts are sound and canonical. The execution, however, is not necessarily the best.

This is actually true, Ward may have 2 - 3 bad fluff stories in 1 codex. But Goto have it in all book...

He is also not too bad at rules. Everyone is angry at how OP his stuff is, but Chaos or Nid players would rejoice if they found out he was making their Codex.

ph34r wrote:C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage.

Oh god, I forgot this! Multilasers on EVERYTHING. Marines, Eldar....it doesn't matter. NEEDS MOAR MULTILASERS!

And yes. Matt Ward, while I complain (loudly) about some of his stories (Draigo vs Primarch for example), and his desperate need for a thesaurus (seriously, just because they are Blood Angels, they DO still use other words), is literally a million lightyears ahead of C.S. Goto.

Which is a shame, as Cassern Sebastien Goto is an EPIC name.

ph34r wrote:Agreed with Kan. Ward's fluff is decent, just executed badly.

C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage. Same with Ian Watson.

How dare you ph34r! Are you being serious? Ian Watson's stuff might be viewed as 'garbage' these days in terms of it's adherence to background, but remember a lot of it was written for an earlier incarnation of 40k where the galaxy was nothing like as padded out as it is now. He was actually responsible for introducing a fair few different things as well, and I think wrote an account of the creation of a Space Marine (in the book of the same name) that I think is still an un-matched description of the process, and largely still stands up today (with the exception of the chaos squats ). And certainly you can't compare his writing ability to Goto (or many of the other BL writers for that matter).

Regarding the OP, Aaron Dembski Bowden wrote an article about this subject some time ago. He said that a writer should never have given so many hints about something like this - short of the character finding a book saying 'Yes the Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Son genestock' and having it co-signed by all of the high lords of Terra, the Emperor and all primarchs, it could not have been laid out in a more obvious manner. He thought that the writing should have been far more subtle, leaving the reader to pick up clues only after some more serious thought about it, and even then for their to be an element of doubt.

Hm. More mystery would have been nice.

As it stands, the "mystery" of the Blood Ravens is how the hell it can be considered a mystery when they beat you upside the head with their mysterious mystery of engima.

Yeah, I guess that is fairly true.