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Cruxxshadow wrote:Italiaplaya,

I was your second opponent at the Grand Waagh playing Eldar. As Daemons are such a rare army these days (in tournaments) I haven't had much experience playing against them so couldn't agree more regarding your after game advice that I should of dumped 24 scatter laser shots into Fateweaver to take him off the board ASAP. I knew pinning myself into the lower right corner was a bad idea but after your deployment and subsequent 2nd round of movement I was definitely feeling a bit of a pinch. There is little doubt that I was given a sound schooling in how not to fight an army like your Fatecrusher list. In all honestly you played a near flawless game and after the 3rd round I was more or less playing defensively. It wasn't hard to read the battlefield and see what was about to unfold. I had a chance to chat with Reese after the game and he pretty much agreed with my self-assessment. I might of had the tools to win the game but I just failed to utilize them properly. I would like to state that although it was the only game I lost during the Grand Waagh it was an enjoyable round. You were an honorable and humble opponent.

Ya, large amounts of flak firepower are great for taking out fateweaver. I wouldnt say deploying yourself in the corner was a bad idea. The problem was you left them there. If you continued to move your units up the side of the board, my crushers would have been out of the game. They would have never caught up to you haha. Crushers are very good units but there underlining problem is that they're slow and have no shooting. I think spreading your army out like that hurt you a lot as well. Nonetheless it was a great game, and im sure we'll get another game in for a rematch haha. I also believe a bunch of us are going to the doubles tourney this weekend. Im sure we'll see you there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
game 4 added

Italiaplaya,

The 5th Twin-Linked team tournament of the season starts at 10:30, (October 1st) open registration / check in is from 9am to 10am. Teams can pre-register until Friday night at midnight for $20.00 per two- player team , $24.00 per team on Saturday. This is a three game tournament, 2.5 hours per round with an hour between 1st & 2nd game for lunch. Not quite as competitive as the Contest of Champions but it should be a blast. As of last night there were 10-12 teams already signed up. Points break down is as follows, army composition: 30 points, team Sportsmanship: 45 points, Battle score: 60 points. Prize support is based off number of players and will be awarded by way of in-store gift cards. If you have any further questions those interested can always check our website at www.greatescapegames.com for more information. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at the tournament. With any luck the defending champions (Wolfbrothers) from Reno will be in attendence.

Cruxxshadow wrote:Italiaplaya,

The 5th Twin-Linked team tournament of the season starts at 10:30, (October 1st) open registration / check in is from 9am to 10am. Teams can pre-register until Friday night at midnight for $20.00 per two- player team , $24.00 per team on Saturday. This is a three game tournament, 2.5 hours per round with an hour between 1st & 2nd game for lunch. Not quite as competitive as the Contest of Champions but it should be a blast. As of last night there were 10-12 teams already signed up. Points break down is as follows, army composition: 30 points, team Sportsmanship: 45 points, Battle score: 60 points. Prize support is based off number of players and will be awarded by way of in-store gift cards. If you have any further questions those interested can always check our website at www.greatescapegames.com for more information. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at the tournament. With any luck the defending champions (Wolfbrothers) from Reno will be in attendence.

Sounds good, You'll probably be getting a call from one of us signing us all up.

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

italiaplaya wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

I have walked thru Draigo+Librarian in a 10 man Paladin squad with my Bloodcrushers. That is the apex of CC ability for Grey Knights. Fatecrusher is too overpowering, even attacking at I1, the Blood Crushers will eventually come out on top. And that is the way it should be. Daemons (Fatecrusher build) are the kings of CC in Warhammer 40,000. In my last game against Grey Knights, I had an entire 8 model strong unit of Blood Crushers (360 points) never make it onto the table because of a Deep Strike mishap. I effectively was playing a 1640 point list against his 2000 point list; I tabled him.

I have never had a problem with Blood Crushers being slow. I believe that is because I understand the in's and out's of Fatecrusher. Being able to deepstrike anywhere on the board (baring warp quake) mitigates a lot of the Blood Crushers slow speed. You also have to have a good understanding of unit placement. Remember, you are only playing on a 6'x4' table. It is easier said than done, to stay away and kite 3x 8 model strong Blood Crusher squads. The footprint they command on the table is huge. I can position them in such of a way they will eventually catch you. Also, if we are playing objectives, I will totally dominate the objectives with my Plaguebearers. You can stay away from me and loose, or come into my killing ground and loose. The choice is yours.

As far as tying up Blood Crushers with a dreadnought, that is an unlikely scenario for a good Fatecrusher player. I wouldn't expose my units to that type of position, and if it did happen, I would provide an answer with a Bloodthirster or even Kairos. This isn't even considering the fact that I can still easily win, even with 1 of my Bloodcrusher squads tied up.

skywise07 wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

I have walked thru Draigo+Librarian in a 10 man Paladin squad with my Bloodcrushers. That is the apex of CC ability for Grey Knights. Fatecrusher is too overpowering, even attacking at I1, the Blood Crushers will eventually come out on top. And that is the way it should be. Daemons (Fatecrusher build) are the kings of CC in Warhammer 40,000. In my last game against Grey Knights, I had an entire 8 model strong unit of Blood Crushers (360 points) never make it onto the table because of a Deep Strike mishap. I effectively was playing a 1640 point list against his 2000 point list; I tabled him.

I have never had a problem with Blood Crushers being slow. I believe that is because I understand the in's and out's of Fatecrusher. Being able to deepstrike anywhere on the board (baring warp quake) mitigates a lot of the Blood Crushers slow speed. You also have to have a good understanding of unit placement. Remember, you are only playing on a 6'x4' table. It is easier said than done, to stay away and kite 3x 8 model strong Blood Crusher squads. The footprint they command on the table is huge. I can position them in such of a way they will eventually catch you. Also, if we are playing objectives, I will totally dominate the objectives with my Plaguebearers. You can stay away from me and loose, or come into my killing ground and loose. The choice is yours.

As far as tying up Blood Crushers with a dreadnought, that is an unlikely scenario for a good Fatecrusher player. I wouldn't expose my units to that type of position, and if it did happen, I would provide an answer with a Bloodthirster or even Kairos. This isn't even considering the fact that I can still easily win, even with 1 of my Bloodcrusher squads tied up.

Either your opponents are not playing right, or you have the damnedest luck. Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends. And if your running 24 crushers plus weaver without upgrades thats 1243 points; and you greatly handicap yourself against opponents like space wolves (jaws FTW here). Your more the exception than the rule; Italianplaya plays against some of the better players in the country and speed is king in those arenas.

Also, a basic fatecrusher build has huge problems against things like Venomspam; they will just sit back and shoot 108 poisoned shots til Kairos dies, then go to town on the rest of your army. You can only make so many 3++ saves! Just cuz ya beat GK a few times doesn't mean it will work everytime.

@Will
Bill Kim (Centurian99) runs a ,axed out triple crusher list and just won Ard Boyz semis with it. He calls it the Chester! haha.

He drops all three squads in the first wave with Fateweaver. He drops one squad on every side of the other army so they can't run away. He does very well with it.

@Skywise07
I agree with some of your points, but being able to mitigate tying up Crushers with walkers isn't as easy as you make it sound.

Italiaplaya is a top level player, and he knows the danger of getting tar pitted on a dread. We play all the time, and more often than not, I can get one of my dreads stuck into at least one of this crusher squads because I get to react to where he lands and often, dictate where combat happens.

Granted, I run more dreads than most people do, but I also protect them. Once they are in combat, the crushers have to wrap around the Dread's base, and no one else is going to get in there to save them anytime soon. If they do, sweet, I am taking more units out of play.

Also, it is pretty easy to run away from Crushers if you deploy right. You can screen, feed them throw away units, back up, etc. Their speed and vulnerability to walkers is their biggest weakness.

Lastly, obviously, is the problem with waves and reserves. Some gak dice and you don't get what you need when you need it. It is a lame game mechanic, but you can't discuss Daemon tactics without planning for bad reserves.

At any rate, I think we all agree that it is a great list and can reliably beat anyone baring Warp Quake spam Grey Knights that go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Zid
You have it.

Venomspam is almost as bad for daemons as Grey Knights.

Will stopped running Bloodthrister because he was a liability. The speed and firepower of the Heralds turned out to be much more useful in our meta (but of course, in other places that may not be the case).

I think a good daemon build MUST have some speedy units to be truly competitive against a wide array of armies.

Zid wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

I have walked thru Draigo+Librarian in a 10 man Paladin squad with my Bloodcrushers. That is the apex of CC ability for Grey Knights. Fatecrusher is too overpowering, even attacking at I1, the Blood Crushers will eventually come out on top. And that is the way it should be. Daemons (Fatecrusher build) are the kings of CC in Warhammer 40,000. In my last game against Grey Knights, I had an entire 8 model strong unit of Blood Crushers (360 points) never make it onto the table because of a Deep Strike mishap. I effectively was playing a 1640 point list against his 2000 point list; I tabled him.

I have never had a problem with Blood Crushers being slow. I believe that is because I understand the in's and out's of Fatecrusher. Being able to deepstrike anywhere on the board (baring warp quake) mitigates a lot of the Blood Crushers slow speed. You also have to have a good understanding of unit placement. Remember, you are only playing on a 6'x4' table. It is easier said than done, to stay away and kite 3x 8 model strong Blood Crusher squads. The footprint they command on the table is huge. I can position them in such of a way they will eventually catch you. Also, if we are playing objectives, I will totally dominate the objectives with my Plaguebearers. You can stay away from me and loose, or come into my killing ground and loose. The choice is yours.

As far as tying up Blood Crushers with a dreadnought, that is an unlikely scenario for a good Fatecrusher player. I wouldn't expose my units to that type of position, and if it did happen, I would provide an answer with a Bloodthirster or even Kairos. This isn't even considering the fact that I can still easily win, even with 1 of my Bloodcrusher squads tied up.

Either your opponents are not playing right, or you have the damnedest luck. Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends. And if your running 24 crushers plus weaver without upgrades thats 1243 points; and you greatly handicap yourself against opponents like space wolves (jaws FTW here). Your more the exception than the rule; Italianplaya plays against some of the better players in the country and speed is king in those arenas.

Also, a basic fatecrusher build has huge problems against things like Venomspam; they will just sit back and shoot 108 poisoned shots til Kairos dies, then go to town on the rest of your army. You can only make so many 3++ saves! Just cuz ya beat GK a few times doesn't mean it will work everytime.

"Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends."

Zid, I adamantly disagree on this. 3 8x strong units of Blood Crushers can completely dominate the table if you know what you are doing. In all seriousness, after playing them in multiple games, I think Fiends of Slaanesh suck. Just flat out, absolutely suck. These are the problems I have with them:

A - No Grenades. This is a killer for them.
B - No staying power in close combat. If they don't do massive damage on the charge, they don't last long. I had a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh get tied up for most of a game, locked in combat with a single IG sentinel.
C - Rending. It is not that great anymore, IMHO. The change from 4th to 5th really nerfed rending.
D - Limited synergy with Kairos. A re-rollable 5++ is inferior to a re-rollable 3+\5+ Blood Crushers enjoy. See point B.

Being able to assault 12" is nice, but THEY ARE NO SUBSTITUTE for Blood Crushers, not by any stretch of the imagination.

@Space Wolves - A real Fatecrusher build eats Space Wolves for lunch. Jaws can cause some damage, but the army is just to vulnerable to the power of rampaging Bloodcrushers. They waste (almost instantly) anything in the Space Wolves codex in CC. TWC may take a turn or two extra, but that's it.

@Venom Spam - I have never played against Venom Spam, but it may be one of the few armies out there that gives Fatecrusher a tough time. I will say that just because Kairos dies, the army is not gimped. Kairos supports the army in many ways, but you can overwhelm a lot of opponents even if he is destroyed. It really depends on which point in the battle they manage to bring him down.

@Skywise07

The best Wolf builds are shooty, not assault oriented (ironically). You have to be able to get through massive amounts of firepower, not beat them in assault (which you are right, they will easily do).

Fiends don't suck, IMO, they are pretty damn amazing. Your experiences sound different than ours, so fair enough, but I know I always fear the Fiends more than the Crushers as they have so much more reach. I can't run from them or tarpit them as easily.

If you have not fought Venom Spam (or really, ANY fast shooty army) then you you should try. Fatecrusher is slow. Mobile shooty armies can move away from you and shoot, shoot, shoot, and you will be at a big disadvantage as you lack anything to assault. Is it unwinable? Not at all, but it is a very hard fight.

That is why one unit of fiends is so useful. They can catch those fast shooting units and take them out where Crushers may struggle.

Rending got nerfed? Yeah, but it was flat out broken in 4th ed. It is still incredibly good though.

Sounds like you do well with your list though, and that is what matters. Bring it out to some of the bid events and prove to people that Daemons don't suck and are in fact, a great army as we know them to be.

skywise07 wrote:

Zid wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

I have walked thru Draigo+Librarian in a 10 man Paladin squad with my Bloodcrushers. That is the apex of CC ability for Grey Knights. Fatecrusher is too overpowering, even attacking at I1, the Blood Crushers will eventually come out on top. And that is the way it should be. Daemons (Fatecrusher build) are the kings of CC in Warhammer 40,000. In my last game against Grey Knights, I had an entire 8 model strong unit of Blood Crushers (360 points) never make it onto the table because of a Deep Strike mishap. I effectively was playing a 1640 point list against his 2000 point list; I tabled him.

I have never had a problem with Blood Crushers being slow. I believe that is because I understand the in's and out's of Fatecrusher. Being able to deepstrike anywhere on the board (baring warp quake) mitigates a lot of the Blood Crushers slow speed. You also have to have a good understanding of unit placement. Remember, you are only playing on a 6'x4' table. It is easier said than done, to stay away and kite 3x 8 model strong Blood Crusher squads. The footprint they command on the table is huge. I can position them in such of a way they will eventually catch you. Also, if we are playing objectives, I will totally dominate the objectives with my Plaguebearers. You can stay away from me and loose, or come into my killing ground and loose. The choice is yours.

As far as tying up Blood Crushers with a dreadnought, that is an unlikely scenario for a good Fatecrusher player. I wouldn't expose my units to that type of position, and if it did happen, I would provide an answer with a Bloodthirster or even Kairos. This isn't even considering the fact that I can still easily win, even with 1 of my Bloodcrusher squads tied up.

Either your opponents are not playing right, or you have the damnedest luck. Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends. And if your running 24 crushers plus weaver without upgrades thats 1243 points; and you greatly handicap yourself against opponents like space wolves (jaws FTW here). Your more the exception than the rule; Italianplaya plays against some of the better players in the country and speed is king in those arenas.

Also, a basic fatecrusher build has huge problems against things like Venomspam; they will just sit back and shoot 108 poisoned shots til Kairos dies, then go to town on the rest of your army. You can only make so many 3++ saves! Just cuz ya beat GK a few times doesn't mean it will work everytime.

"Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends."

Zid, I adamantly disagree on this. 3 8x strong units of Blood Crushers can completely dominate the table if you know what you are doing. In all seriousness, after playing them in multiple games, I think Fiends of Slaanesh suck. Just flat out, absolutely suck. These are the problems I have with them:

A - No Grenades. This is a killer for them.
B - No staying power in close combat. If they don't do massive damage on the charge, they don't last long. I had a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh get tied up for most of a game, locked in combat with a single IG sentinel.
C - Rending. It is not that great anymore, IMHO. The change from 4th to 5th really nerfed rending.
D - Limited synergy with Kairos. A re-rollable 5++ is inferior to a re-rollable 3+\5+ Blood Crushers enjoy. See point B.

Being able to assault 12" is nice, but THEY ARE NO SUBSTITUTE for Blood Crushers, not by any stretch of the imagination.

@Space Wolves - A real Fatecrusher build eats Space Wolves for lunch. Jaws can cause some damage, but the army is just to vulnerable to the power of rampaging Bloodcrushers. They waste (almost instantly) anything in the Space Wolves codex in CC. TWC may take a turn or two extra, but that's it.

@Venom Spam - I have never played against Venom Spam, but it may be one of the few armies out there that gives Fatecrusher a tough time. I will say that just because Kairos dies, the army is not gimped. Kairos supports the army in many ways, but you can overwhelm a lot of opponents even if he is destroyed. It really depends on which point in the battle they manage to bring him down.

So lets see here...

1)No grenades - Yes, this isn't a good thing for them. However, with fleet and a 12" assault range I will at least see combat once in a game, if not more. On top of it with 36 attacks on the charge, you WILL kill something. 36 str 5, WS 5 attacks with rending is no joke.
2) No staying power - thats what Hit and Run is for If you get in too deep, dip out and go for something else. Backed up by something like Kairos a 5++ does do well, not as well as a 3+ rerolling, but more than sufficient.
3) Rending - Yes, it was nerfed, and? 36 attacks that rend will rend something, and you can get up to a 14 AP. This means you threaten EVERY vehicle in the game. Dreads are a non issue; if you get tied up and don't kill it, hit and run away to something else.
4) Synergy - Yes, the rolls are inferior. Thats why you play smart.

Pretty much all your saying is that because you can't bull rush and bully your opponents for the win, thereby crushers are far superior. No, and no. Face Eldar Serpent spam once and you'll see just how poorly crushers fare in some matchups. Face any half decent DE player and watch them run circles around and blast your plaguebearers into dust for the win.

You don't realize that in 66% of your games opponents can ignore the crushers for the most part. If they kill your 3 or 4 units of (probably) minimized PB's they can deny you the win and force you to come after them. Not all games are as easy as "hole up here and wait".

Honestly I don't see why I'm arguing the point with you... Yes, crushers will dominate most anything in CC. Thats not the issue here. The viability of JUST having crushers and Kairos is the issue. Crushers die very easily with Kairos out of the picture, and while Fiends die even quicker, if your smart they won't have any less than a 4+ cover save until they see combat. Oh, and try crushers just once against Hormagaunt/Venomthrope spam and you'll see just how laughable they are to some armies 60 4+ poisoned attacks that reroll hits ftw!

Reecius wrote:@Will
Bill Kim (Centurian99) runs a ,axed out triple crusher list and just won Ard Boyz semis with it. He calls it the Chester! haha.

He drops all three squads in the first wave with Fateweaver. He drops one squad on every side of the other army so they can't run away. He does very well with it.

@Skywise07
I agree with some of your points, but being able to mitigate tying up Crushers with walkers isn't as easy as you make it sound.

Italiaplaya is a top level player, and he knows the danger of getting tar pitted on a dread. We play all the time, and more often than not, I can get one of my dreads stuck into at least one of this crusher squads because I get to react to where he lands and often, dictate where combat happens.

Granted, I run more dreads than most people do, but I also protect them. Once they are in combat, the crushers have to wrap around the Dread's base, and no one else is going to get in there to save them anytime soon. If they do, sweet, I am taking more units out of play.

Also, it is pretty easy to run away from Crushers if you deploy right. You can screen, feed them throw away units, back up, etc. Their speed and vulnerability to walkers is their biggest weakness.

Lastly, obviously, is the problem with waves and reserves. Some gak dice and you don't get what you need when you need it. It is a lame game mechanic, but you can't discuss Daemon tactics without planning for bad reserves.

At any rate, I think we all agree that it is a great list and can reliably beat anyone baring Warp Quake spam Grey Knights that go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Zid
You have it.

Venomspam is almost as bad for daemons as Grey Knights.

Will stopped running Bloodthrister because he was a liability. The speed and firepower of the Heralds turned out to be much more useful in our meta (but of course, in other places that may not be the case).

I think a good daemon build MUST have some speedy units to be truly competitive against a wide array of armies.

That guy was relying a lot on luck haha. Putting all his eggs in one basket. What does he do when he doesnt get his half?

italiaplaya wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Will
Bill Kim (Centurian99) runs a ,axed out triple crusher list and just won Ard Boyz semis with it. He calls it the Chester! haha.

He drops all three squads in the first wave with Fateweaver. He drops one squad on every side of the other army so they can't run away. He does very well with it.

@Skywise07
I agree with some of your points, but being able to mitigate tying up Crushers with walkers isn't as easy as you make it sound.

Italiaplaya is a top level player, and he knows the danger of getting tar pitted on a dread. We play all the time, and more often than not, I can get one of my dreads stuck into at least one of this crusher squads because I get to react to where he lands and often, dictate where combat happens.

Granted, I run more dreads than most people do, but I also protect them. Once they are in combat, the crushers have to wrap around the Dread's base, and no one else is going to get in there to save them anytime soon. If they do, sweet, I am taking more units out of play.

Also, it is pretty easy to run away from Crushers if you deploy right. You can screen, feed them throw away units, back up, etc. Their speed and vulnerability to walkers is their biggest weakness.

Lastly, obviously, is the problem with waves and reserves. Some gak dice and you don't get what you need when you need it. It is a lame game mechanic, but you can't discuss Daemon tactics without planning for bad reserves.

At any rate, I think we all agree that it is a great list and can reliably beat anyone baring Warp Quake spam Grey Knights that go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Zid
You have it.

Venomspam is almost as bad for daemons as Grey Knights.

Will stopped running Bloodthrister because he was a liability. The speed and firepower of the Heralds turned out to be much more useful in our meta (but of course, in other places that may not be the case).

I think a good daemon build MUST have some speedy units to be truly competitive against a wide array of armies.

That guy was relying a lot on luck haha. Putting all his eggs in one basket. What does he do when he doesnt get his half?

Cross his fingers and hope he doesn't lose everything?

@ Skywise07
Do the people you play not realize that the army basically falls apart if Fateweaver is dead? When I was playing will I was able to tie the crushers up with my lone wolves until fate weaver was dead. Even though it did not happen, I am confident that my fattie Grey Hunter squads would have been able to kill them if I got the charge off. Also all competitive SW armies have some missiles and against missiles, crushers die just as fast as fiends. The only difference is that the fiends might actually get into combat.

The fiends did not do much against me, but I was more afraid of them than the crushers. It is bad news to charge the fiends or be charged by the fiends, if they are not going to terrain.

Savist wrote:@ Skywise07
Do the people you play not realize that the army basically falls apart if Fateweaver is dead? When I was playing will I was able to tie the crushers up with my lone wolves until fate weaver was dead. Even though it did not happen, I am confident that my fattie Grey Hunter squads would have been able to kill them if I got the charge off. Also all competitive SW armies have some missiles and against missiles, crushers die just as fast as fiends. The only difference is that the fiends might actually get into combat.

The fiends did not do much against me, but I was more afraid of them than the crushers. It is bad news to charge the fiends or be charged by the fiends, if they are not going to terrain.

Fatecrusher DOES NOT fall apart once Kairos is gone. At least mine doesn't. It is a major loss, but the army can still easily dominate and win. Once those Blood Crushers are in close combat (which they will be with a competant general), shooting becomes a moot point.

I am not sure how you were able to tie up Blood Crushers with lone wolves, but I would consider that a laughable tactic.. How are your lone wolves going to deal with 32 ST6 power weapon attacks on the charge? They won't, they will go down in a shower of blood like everything else in the Space Wolves codex.

I have faced Long Fang spam with Fatecrusher many times. Trust me dude, it will not stop the army. You have to deliver 5 unsaved wounds to 1 Bloodcrusher squad before I remove a single model. With a re-rollable 3+/5++, you simply can't do enough damage to stop me before I tear your Long Fangs apart with my hellblades.

I am not trying to downplay your army dude, but facing any MEQ build with my Fate Crusher is a bit of a joke. That includes, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dual Lash+Oblit Chaos, etc. In most cases, it is auto win for Fate Crusher.

Zid wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

Zid wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Don't forget the grey knights. A combo charge with dreadknight and any other GK unit can spell disaster to crushers.

Thats if you get a combo off... and a smart opponent won't let it happen! If crushers get the charge on a DK (which again, a smart opponent won't let happen) its doomed

Not really. Crushers charge dreadknight. DK casts Dark Excommunication and now the BC's are without Iron Hide (no 3+ armor) and Hellblades (no power weapons). The DK will tarpit the BC's while the other GK's will help to take them out.

Then again, the times when I played against daemons, one time it was with paladins and a dreadknight and the other time was with a dreadknight and interceptors. With personal teleporters on the DK, I can usually get the charge off and lock up those crushers so that my other units can get the charge.

Don't forget, psyk-out grenades reduce them to I1 and then you're attacking with S5 power weapons with re-rolls to hit. Charge them with numbers and you can potentially wipe them out.

I have thus far beaten Grey Knights twice with my Fatecrusher list. One player was a tournament champion running a Draigo\Librarian\10 Paladin death star build.

The key to destroying Dreadknights with Blood Crushers, is to assault with more than 1 unit. I played against Grey Knights last night, and my opponent charged into one of my crusher squads with a unit of Terminators and a Dreadknight. The Dreadknight used Dark Excommunication on my Blood Crusher squad. The next turn, I assaulted the Dreadknight with a second unit of Blood Crushers. Since Dark Excommunication only effects 1 unit that is in base to base combat with the Dreadknight, I slaughtered the Dreadknight immediately.

My Fatecrusher build has no fear of Grey Knights in close combat. I dominate them. The key is to play a true Fatecrusher build. I run 3 units of 8 Bloodcrushers at 2,000 points. Switching out a unit of Bloodcrushers for fiends and other crap is foolish IMHO. I have tabled the last 3 people I have played with my Fatecrusher army.

Im suprised your unit lived thru a squad of terminators and a dreadknight assaulting them. Saying Grey Knights dont hinder our ability to play normally in a match up against them is pretty foolish. Yes if we charge them its not as bad. But when they charge us.. its pretty devastating. I'd say we're at a pretty significant handicap against Grey Knights. Not saying its impossible to win, I to have beaten all grey knight players ive played against in Tourney play. But it did come down to lucky dice rolls when I needed it.

Blood Crushers are a very good unit but once again there underlining problem is that they are very slow. Good players can keep away from them. And good players that have answers for them will exploit them. Such as assaulting a dread into the unit and tieing them up for a very long time. (assuming you dont get lucky with your 1 rending model in the unit.) My list came from someone who used to run 3 full units of crushers. I formed my list off of what I saw were problems with it.

I have walked thru Draigo+Librarian in a 10 man Paladin squad with my Bloodcrushers. That is the apex of CC ability for Grey Knights. Fatecrusher is too overpowering, even attacking at I1, the Blood Crushers will eventually come out on top. And that is the way it should be. Daemons (Fatecrusher build) are the kings of CC in Warhammer 40,000. In my last game against Grey Knights, I had an entire 8 model strong unit of Blood Crushers (360 points) never make it onto the table because of a Deep Strike mishap. I effectively was playing a 1640 point list against his 2000 point list; I tabled him.

I have never had a problem with Blood Crushers being slow. I believe that is because I understand the in's and out's of Fatecrusher. Being able to deepstrike anywhere on the board (baring warp quake) mitigates a lot of the Blood Crushers slow speed. You also have to have a good understanding of unit placement. Remember, you are only playing on a 6'x4' table. It is easier said than done, to stay away and kite 3x 8 model strong Blood Crusher squads. The footprint they command on the table is huge. I can position them in such of a way they will eventually catch you. Also, if we are playing objectives, I will totally dominate the objectives with my Plaguebearers. You can stay away from me and loose, or come into my killing ground and loose. The choice is yours.

As far as tying up Blood Crushers with a dreadnought, that is an unlikely scenario for a good Fatecrusher player. I wouldn't expose my units to that type of position, and if it did happen, I would provide an answer with a Bloodthirster or even Kairos. This isn't even considering the fact that I can still easily win, even with 1 of my Bloodcrusher squads tied up.

Either your opponents are not playing right, or you have the damnedest luck. Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends. And if your running 24 crushers plus weaver without upgrades thats 1243 points; and you greatly handicap yourself against opponents like space wolves (jaws FTW here). Your more the exception than the rule; Italianplaya plays against some of the better players in the country and speed is king in those arenas.

Also, a basic fatecrusher build has huge problems against things like Venomspam; they will just sit back and shoot 108 poisoned shots til Kairos dies, then go to town on the rest of your army. You can only make so many 3++ saves! Just cuz ya beat GK a few times doesn't mean it will work everytime.

"Crushers ARE too slow; thus why many (many many) people play fiends."

Zid, I adamantly disagree on this. 3 8x strong units of Blood Crushers can completely dominate the table if you know what you are doing. In all seriousness, after playing them in multiple games, I think Fiends of Slaanesh suck. Just flat out, absolutely suck. These are the problems I have with them:

A - No Grenades. This is a killer for them.
B - No staying power in close combat. If they don't do massive damage on the charge, they don't last long. I had a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh get tied up for most of a game, locked in combat with a single IG sentinel.
C - Rending. It is not that great anymore, IMHO. The change from 4th to 5th really nerfed rending.
D - Limited synergy with Kairos. A re-rollable 5++ is inferior to a re-rollable 3+\5+ Blood Crushers enjoy. See point B.

Being able to assault 12" is nice, but THEY ARE NO SUBSTITUTE for Blood Crushers, not by any stretch of the imagination.

@Space Wolves - A real Fatecrusher build eats Space Wolves for lunch. Jaws can cause some damage, but the army is just to vulnerable to the power of rampaging Bloodcrushers. They waste (almost instantly) anything in the Space Wolves codex in CC. TWC may take a turn or two extra, but that's it.

@Venom Spam - I have never played against Venom Spam, but it may be one of the few armies out there that gives Fatecrusher a tough time. I will say that just because Kairos dies, the army is not gimped. Kairos supports the army in many ways, but you can overwhelm a lot of opponents even if he is destroyed. It really depends on which point in the battle they manage to bring him down.

So lets see here...

1)No grenades - Yes, this isn't a good thing for them. However, with fleet and a 12" assault range I will at least see combat once in a game, if not more. On top of it with 36 attacks on the charge, you WILL kill something. 36 str 5, WS 5 attacks with rending is no joke.
2) No staying power - thats what Hit and Run is for If you get in too deep, dip out and go for something else. Backed up by something like Kairos a 5++ does do well, not as well as a 3+ rerolling, but more than sufficient.
3) Rending - Yes, it was nerfed, and? 36 attacks that rend will rend something, and you can get up to a 14 AP. This means you threaten EVERY vehicle in the game. Dreads are a non issue; if you get tied up and don't kill it, hit and run away to something else.
4) Synergy - Yes, the rolls are inferior. Thats why you play smart.

Pretty much all your saying is that because you can't bull rush and bully your opponents for the win, thereby crushers are far superior. No, and no. Face Eldar Serpent spam once and you'll see just how poorly crushers fare in some matchups. Face any half decent DE player and watch them run circles around and blast your plaguebearers into dust for the win.

You don't realize that in 66% of your games opponents can ignore the crushers for the most part. If they kill your 3 or 4 units of (probably) minimized PB's they can deny you the win and force you to come after them. Not all games are as easy as "hole up here and wait".

Honestly I don't see why I'm arguing the point with you... Yes, crushers will dominate most anything in CC. Thats not the issue here. The viability of JUST having crushers and Kairos is the issue. Crushers die very easily with Kairos out of the picture, and while Fiends die even quicker, if your smart they won't have any less than a 4+ cover save until they see combat. Oh, and try crushers just once against Hormagaunt/Venomthrope spam and you'll see just how laughable they are to some armies 60 4+ poisoned attacks that reroll hits ftw!

"You don't realize that in 66% of your games opponents can ignore the crushers for the most part. If they kill your 3 or 4 units of (probably) minimized PB's they can deny you the win and force you to come after them. Not all games are as easy as "hole up here and wait". "

This comment tells me that you don't really understand how Fatecrusher works, or how objectives are placed in missions. It is easy to say, I will just shoot up those T5, 5++, feel no pain Plague Bearers. It is much easier said than done. Those 5 man squads of Plaguebearers are much hardier than you realize. Not only that, the objectives are typically surrounded by waves of Blood Crushers, often providing a 4++ cover save. Additionally, if the opponent is focused fired on Plague Bearer units, all the better for the Blood Crushers, Kairos, and Bloodthirster.

Wow Will, you should be doing alto better with Fatecrusher

If you play a good SW player you will not be able to chew through all the bubble wrap around the Long Fangs until they have already done their damage. If I charge the crushers I think we should kill each other, or at least I would cripple the squad. If you charge me you will probably wipe me and be open for more missiles on my next turn. Crushers are scary, with fateweaver they become really horrifying. But when fateweaver dies you can deal with the army the same way you would deal with TWC only crushers are slower.

Savist wrote:Wow Will, you should be doing alto better with Fatecrusher

If you play a good SW player you will not be able to chew through all the bubble wrap around the Long Fangs until they have already done their damage. If I charge the crushers I think we should kill each other, or at least I would cripple the squad. If you charge me you will probably wipe me and be open for more missiles on my next turn. Crushers are scary, with fateweaver they become really horrifying. But when fateweaver dies you can deal with the army the same way you would deal with TWC only crushers are slower.

"If you play a good SW player you will not be able to chew through all the bubble wrap around the Long Fangs until they have already done their damage."
Dude, c'mon. Replying to this is like talking to a wall. The proof is in the pudding, and the many Space Wolves I have slaughtered posed little challenge. It just doesn't go down like this.

" If I charge the crushers I think we should kill each other, or at least I would cripple the squad."
Are you serious? There is NOTHING in your codex that will cripple one of my 8 model Blood Crusher squads in CC, even if you get the charge. The only thing that would even be a marginal threat, would be a 5 man TWC squad. Even then, the TWC squad would die (even if they charged), and in the mean time my other 2 Blood Crusher squads and Greater Daemons will be sending the rest of your Space Wolves into the Warp.

No reason to bring your egos into it, guys. You can't argue a point into reality. The bottom line is that all of us can only speak from experience, and it sounds like skywise07 has had good results with his Daemons against other armies. Good for him.

If you lived in our area we'd be happy to give you a game, but since that is probably unlikely, in the end, you just have to agree to disagree.

Wow... all I hear is "blood crushers rule the world LULZLULZ!!!1!!1111" in all your posts skywise... its not even worth arguing with you anymore. Good luck to ya

Zid wrote:Wow... all I hear is "blood crushers rule the world LULZLULZ!!!1!!1111" in all your posts skywise... its not even worth arguing with you anymore. Good luck to ya

Lol, I thought the same thing. He must be ranked number 1 in the WORLD, and never lost a game EVER. Fatecrusher must be soooo OP I wonder why no one else plays them. Back into reality though, after his 2nd post I've labeled him as a troll. I've had my fair share of face palms from the stuff I've heard from him lol.

Here is my take on fatecrusher builds.

A pure fatecrusher build could be dominant a la nob bikers. Against many armies, it can and will beat face. It is super-resilient, more resilient than many would think. As a result, that is how you table some players - with surprise.

However, it is yesterday's super-power. You may table less experienced players, but against good players with balanced all-comer's lists, you will struggle. Just like nob bikers, it just cannot keep up with the good, balanced builds of the new codices. It lacks balance. To be a true all-comer's army, you must take into consideration all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. While fatecrusher is really strong in assault - maybe strong enough to make up for its shooting - its weakness in the Movement phase is what keeps it from being a great all-comer's daemon build. It's also what good players can and will exploit.

Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility. They may not be as resilient as fatecrusher, but they are more balanced to take on a wider range of armies than the former daemon super-power.


@Italiaplaya:

BTW, congrats on a very good finish with an army in a world dominated by the Grey Knights. Kinda surprised that in 5 games, you didn't even once encounter them.

jy2 wrote:Here is my take on fatecrusher builds.

A pure fatecrusher build could be dominant a la nob bikers. Against many armies, it can and will beat face. It is super-resilient, more resilient than many would think. As a result, that is how you table some players - with surprise.

However, it is yesterday's super-power. You may table less experienced players, but against good players with balanced all-comer's lists, you will struggle. Just like nob bikers, it just cannot keep up with the good, balanced builds of the new codices. It lacks balance. To be a true all-comer's army, you must take into consideration all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. While fatecrusher is really strong in assault - maybe strong enough to make up for its shooting - its weakness in the Movement phase is what keeps it from being a great all-comer's daemon build. It's also what good players can and will exploit.

Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility. They may not be as resilient as fatecrusher, but they are more balanced to take on a wider range of armies than the former daemon super-power.


@Italiaplaya:

BTW, congrats on a very good finish with an army in a world dominated by the Grey Knights. Kinda surprised that in 5 games, you didn't even once encounter them.

JY2 - Voice of reason in these times of noobism...

Thanks JY!

jy2 wrote:Here is my take on fatecrusher builds.

A pure fatecrusher build could be dominant a la nob bikers. Against many armies, it can and will beat face. It is super-resilient, more resilient than many would think. As a result, that is how you table some players - with surprise.

However, it is yesterday's super-power. You may table less experienced players, but against good players with balanced all-comer's lists, you will struggle. Just like nob bikers, it just cannot keep up with the good, balanced builds of the new codices. It lacks balance. To be a true all-comer's army, you must take into consideration all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. While fatecrusher is really strong in assault - maybe strong enough to make up for its shooting - its weakness in the Movement phase is what keeps it from being a great all-comer's daemon build. It's also what good players can and will exploit.

Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility. They may not be as resilient as fatecrusher, but they are more balanced to take on a wider range of armies than the former daemon super-power.


@Italiaplaya:

BTW, congrats on a very good finish with an army in a world dominated by the Grey Knights. Kinda surprised that in 5 games, you didn't even once encounter them.

There were about 5 or 6 Grey knight players. I dont think any of them did all too well. Lucky for me. There was one list I was pretty afraid of though. A full driago wing list full of pallies only.

jy2 wrote:Here is my take on fatecrusher builds.

A pure fatecrusher build could be dominant a la nob bikers. Against many armies, it can and will beat face. It is super-resilient, more resilient than many would think. As a result, that is how you table some players - with surprise.

However, it is yesterday's super-power. You may table less experienced players, but against good players with balanced all-comer's lists, you will struggle. Just like nob bikers, it just cannot keep up with the good, balanced builds of the new codices. It lacks balance. To be a true all-comer's army, you must take into consideration all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. While fatecrusher is really strong in assault - maybe strong enough to make up for its shooting - its weakness in the Movement phase is what keeps it from being a great all-comer's daemon build. It's also what good players can and will exploit.

Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility. They may not be as resilient as fatecrusher, but they are more balanced to take on a wider range of armies than the former daemon super-power.


@Italiaplaya:

BTW, congrats on a very good finish with an army in a world dominated by the Grey Knights. Kinda surprised that in 5 games, you didn't even once encounter them.

" Just like nob bikers, it just cannot keep up with the good, balanced builds of the new codices. It lacks balance. To be a true all-comer's army, you must take into consideration all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. While fatecrusher is really strong in assault - maybe strong enough to make up for its shooting - its weakness in the Movement phase is what keeps it from being a great all-comer's daemon build. It's also what good players can and will exploit."

Can you site your source on this, or is this just the opinion you have formed? I routinely destroy Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar with my Fatecrusher. Most of my games end in the opponent being tabled, and NONE OF THEM are new players. Is that not keeping up?
I disagree that a "true all-comer's army" must account for all 3 phases. The Chaos Daemons codex is all about assault. There are some shooting units in it, but it is based around the assault phase. As it should be.
A "true all-comer's army" must be able to realistically compete with most of the other builds it is likely to face. It must be consistent from game to game. And that is exactly what true Fatecrusher does.

"Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility."
I couldn't disagree more. Fiendweaver is completely inferior to true Fatecrusher. This is even more true now that we are in the era of Grey Knights. Fiendweaver can not consistently compete with a competitive Grey Knight build. Fatecrusher can in spades.
If your opponent brings Draigo Wing to the table with Fiendweaver, you are done. I find it sad that a Daemon general would even consider bringing Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald\Fiend-spam to Ard Boyz. You WILL NOT win with all of the Grey Knight players
out there. I can walk into Ard Boyz with Fatecrusher, and I KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I will have a good chance of victory. My opponents know this as well.

skywise07 wrote:"Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility."
I couldn't disagree more. Fiendweaver is completely inferior to true Fatecrusher. This is even more true now that we are in the era of Grey Knights. Fiendweaver can not consistently compete with a competitive Grey Knight build. Fatecrusher can in spades.
If your opponent brings Draigo Wing to the table with Fiendweaver, you are done. I find it sad that a Daemon general would even consider bringing Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald\Fiend-spam to Ard Boyz. You WILL NOT win with all of the Grey Knight players
out there. I can walk into Ard Boyz with Fatecrusher, and I KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I will have a good chance of victory. My opponents know this as well.

Ard Boyz is completely different than fielding a standard 1850-2000pt tournament list. I tend to agree for Ard Boyz fatecrusher is really good but the additional 500pts gives you a lot of options that arent available at lower point levels options for filling out your fast attack and heavy support to support the crushers.

Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. And frankly if you are playing fiends vs crushers/fateweaver and you can't manage to pull the crushers out away from fateweaver you are a bad general. There's no way you can keep 24 crusher's inside fateweavers bubble.

Warmaster wrote:

skywise07 wrote:"Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility."
I couldn't disagree more. Fiendweaver is completely inferior to true Fatecrusher. This is even more true now that we are in the era of Grey Knights. Fiendweaver can not consistently compete with a competitive Grey Knight build. Fatecrusher can in spades.
If your opponent brings Draigo Wing to the table with Fiendweaver, you are done. I find it sad that a Daemon general would even consider bringing Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald\Fiend-spam to Ard Boyz. You WILL NOT win with all of the Grey Knight players
out there. I can walk into Ard Boyz with Fatecrusher, and I KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I will have a good chance of victory. My opponents know this as well.

Ard Boyz is completely different than fielding a standard 1850-2000pt tournament list. I tend to agree for Ard Boyz fatecrusher is really good but the additional 500pts gives you a lot of options that arent available at lower point levels options for filling out your fast attack and heavy support to support the crushers.

Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. And frankly if you are playing fiends vs crushers/fateweaver and you can't manage to pull the crushers out away from fateweaver you are a bad general. There's no way you can keep 24 crusher's inside fateweavers bubble.

One of my "secrets" (only revealing because we are on Dakka) with Fatecrusher is I use a Forge World Lord of Change for Kairos. I am not sure if you have seen his base, but it is really large. I can easily command his Oracle of Eternity over 3 squads of 8 Blood Crushers, and I am adept at intercepting any treachery from my opponents to pull the Oracle of Eternity bubble away. I know how to play the army, and I foresee tactics like that. With that being said, I almost never play 3 squads of Crushers around Kairos. Normally he is deeply surrounded by 2 squads of Blood Crushers with a Blood Thirster hovering around. The 3rd squad of Blood Crushers are typically placed in a way that they move in and sandwhich opposing opposition.

"Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. "
I adamantly disagree, based on heavy experience playing both. As a matter of fact, I often play large Apocalypse games with Chaos Daemons. I always bring 24 Blood Crushers to those games, and never take fiends, even though I have 18 fiends fully painted. I would rather spend the points on other models.

skywise07 wrote:

Warmaster wrote:

skywise07 wrote:"Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility."
I couldn't disagree more. Fiendweaver is completely inferior to true Fatecrusher. This is even more true now that we are in the era of Grey Knights. Fiendweaver can not consistently compete with a competitive Grey Knight build. Fatecrusher can in spades.
If your opponent brings Draigo Wing to the table with Fiendweaver, you are done. I find it sad that a Daemon general would even consider bringing Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald\Fiend-spam to Ard Boyz. You WILL NOT win with all of the Grey Knight players
out there. I can walk into Ard Boyz with Fatecrusher, and I KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I will have a good chance of victory. My opponents know this as well.

Ard Boyz is completely different than fielding a standard 1850-2000pt tournament list. I tend to agree for Ard Boyz fatecrusher is really good but the additional 500pts gives you a lot of options that arent available at lower point levels options for filling out your fast attack and heavy support to support the crushers.

Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. And frankly if you are playing fiends vs crushers/fateweaver and you can't manage to pull the crushers out away from fateweaver you are a bad general. There's no way you can keep 24 crusher's inside fateweavers bubble.

One of my "secrets" (only revealing because we are on Dakka) with Fatecrusher is I use a Forge World Lord of Change for Kairos. I am not sure if you have seen his base, but it is really large. I can easily command his Oracle of Eternity over 3 squads of 8 Blood Crushers, and I am adept at intercepting any treachery from my opponents to pull the Oracle of Eternity bubble away. I know how to play the army, and I foresee tactics like that. With that being said, I almost never play 3 squads of Crushers around Kairos. Normally he is deeply surrounded by 2 squads of Blood Crushers with a Blood Thirster hovering around. The 3rd squad of Blood Crushers are typically placed in a way that they move in and sandwhich opposing opposition.

"Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. "
I adamantly disagree, based on heavy experience playing both. As a matter of fact, I often play large Apocalypse games with Chaos Daemons. I always bring 24 Blood Crushers to those games, and never take fiends, even though I have 18 fiends fully painted. I would rather spend the points on other models.

Wow... reading your posts... Ok, I'm done with this thread lol might need to ask a mod to close it to have this guy shut it -_-

Zid wrote:

skywise07 wrote:

Warmaster wrote:

skywise07 wrote:"Right now, IMO the best daemon build is Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald/Fiend-spam. Good in assault, better-than-average daemon shooting and great mobility."
I couldn't disagree more. Fiendweaver is completely inferior to true Fatecrusher. This is even more true now that we are in the era of Grey Knights. Fiendweaver can not consistently compete with a competitive Grey Knight build. Fatecrusher can in spades.
If your opponent brings Draigo Wing to the table with Fiendweaver, you are done. I find it sad that a Daemon general would even consider bringing Fiendweaver or Tzeentch Herald\Fiend-spam to Ard Boyz. You WILL NOT win with all of the Grey Knight players
out there. I can walk into Ard Boyz with Fatecrusher, and I KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I will have a good chance of victory. My opponents know this as well.

Ard Boyz is completely different than fielding a standard 1850-2000pt tournament list. I tend to agree for Ard Boyz fatecrusher is really good but the additional 500pts gives you a lot of options that arent available at lower point levels options for filling out your fast attack and heavy support to support the crushers.

Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. And frankly if you are playing fiends vs crushers/fateweaver and you can't manage to pull the crushers out away from fateweaver you are a bad general. There's no way you can keep 24 crusher's inside fateweavers bubble.

One of my "secrets" (only revealing because we are on Dakka) with Fatecrusher is I use a Forge World Lord of Change for Kairos. I am not sure if you have seen his base, but it is really large. I can easily command his Oracle of Eternity over 3 squads of 8 Blood Crushers, and I am adept at intercepting any treachery from my opponents to pull the Oracle of Eternity bubble away. I know how to play the army, and I foresee tactics like that. With that being said, I almost never play 3 squads of Crushers around Kairos. Normally he is deeply surrounded by 2 squads of Blood Crushers with a Blood Thirster hovering around. The 3rd squad of Blood Crushers are typically placed in a way that they move in and sandwhich opposing opposition.

"Point for point fiends outfight bloodcrushers. "
I adamantly disagree, based on heavy experience playing both. As a matter of fact, I often play large Apocalypse games with Chaos Daemons. I always bring 24 Blood Crushers to those games, and never take fiends, even though I have 18 fiends fully painted. I would rather spend the points on other models.

Wow... reading your posts... Ok, I'm done with this thread lol might need to ask a mod to close it to have this guy shut it -_-

Zid, you are not adding any value to this thread. The only thing you have done is gone off with Diarrhea of the Mouth, and posted $hitty little 1 liner's. I am not sure if it is because you are jealous because you realize you would have 0 chance against my Fatecrusher with your Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marines, or are just trying to have a bigger "pewter penis". Whatever the case, STFU and go away as you are "done with this thread".

Methinks that we have derailed this thread long enough. I suggest if anyone wants to continue this "debate", he just go open up a new thread with regards to fiend vs crusher daemons.