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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:17:48
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. George, UT
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:candy.man wrote:This thread has once again made me realise how bad 5th edition rules are. It’s interesting that one of the worst written rules, JOTWW was not written by Matt Ward (compliment or a criticism?).
TBH I can't think of a single unbalanced rule that Mat Ward has written in 5th. Sure, he writes the rules really sloppily, but once they're FAQ'd and ironed out they tend to be pretty good.
Decent of Angels is another army wide rule that is just not necessary.
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See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:

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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:38:35
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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A green tide list without the ranged anti-tank to take out some dreads is in trouble for a ton of other reasons, not because of the dread. Nids have lots of MC's that absolutely smash dreads, they also have hiveguard. Necrons are sucky in general, and are equally boned by a standard dread most of the time.
You just listed a bunch of sucky lists (and a very old and bad codex) as the reasons for the unbalance of a dreadnought. If it is so unbalanced, why aren't we seeing tons of them?
Decent of angels is necessary, without it, BA's could not really "decent like angels" because deep strike is too risky without this rule. Even with this rule, jump armies are hardly dominating tourneys.
There are lots of things wrong with 40k, but most are with poor internal balance in codexes and with the muddy and not exactly awesome main rules.
More on topic, EW to all characters is a horrible idea for so many reasons. 40k is hero-hammer enough already.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:40:45
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Seaward wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:candy.man wrote:This thread has once again made me realise how bad 5th edition rules are. It’s interesting that one of the worst written rules, JOTWW was not written by Matt Ward (compliment or a criticism?).
TBH I can't think of a single unbalanced rule that Mat Ward has written in 5th. Sure, he writes the rules really sloppily, but once they're FAQ'd and ironed out they tend to be pretty good.
Psych grenades.
And those are OP how? (Do you mean Psych-out or Psychotroke Grenades BTW?
Jayden63 wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:candy.man wrote:This thread has once again made me realise how bad 5th edition rules are. It’s interesting that one of the worst written rules, JOTWW was not written by Matt Ward (compliment or a criticism?).
TBH I can't think of a single unbalanced rule that Mat Ward has written in 5th. Sure, he writes the rules really sloppily, but once they're FAQ'd and ironed out they tend to be pretty good.
Decent of Angels is another army wide rule that is just not necessary.
So the one thing that makes all-foot BA viable is "just not necessary"?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:41:59
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Illumini wrote:
Decent of angels is necessary, without it, BA's could not really "decent like angels" because deep strike is too risky without this rule.
Seems to work for every other army in the game and worked in the past as long as you were somewhat intelligent in how you do it.
Even with this rule, jump armies are hardly dominating tourneys.
True, but it still wasn't exactly necessary for the army to perform well, it's another special rule for the sake of being a special rule so they can justify the existence of another army where 90% of its weapons, units and wargear are either directly shared with another army or varied by mere weapon swaps.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:47:33
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Vaktathi wrote:Illumini wrote:Decent of angels is necessary, without it, BA's could not really "decent like angels" because deep strike is too risky without this rule.
Seems to work for every other army in the game and worked in the past as long as you were somewhat intelligent in how you do it.
The only things that you see deep strike (barring deamons) are cheap suicide squads or squads that get some kind of ability to lower the danger of deep striking, so no, it doesn't really work that well for most other armies. Also, the discussion was on unbalanced rules + Matt Ward, not on the existance of 6 different marine codexes. - Which I agree is overkill, but which Matt Ward can hardly be blamed for, actually, he has helped making the armies into much more distinct armies than they were before
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/30 19:48:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 19:54:49
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Repentia Mistress
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I see alot of you are anyalyzing ID from the marine POV. Its really bad when you are only T3 and steray assault cannon round or relic blade kills you in one hit. You can't run aroudn tryign to avoid Str 6 weapons. Multi-lasers, plasma weapon, autocanons, krak grenade launchers,, and more are all instant death to T 3. So don't spend too many points on a T 3 IC. In fact I'm having toruble thinking of one that has EW except the Masque.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 22:00:14
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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andrewm9 wrote:I see alot of you are anyalyzing ID from the marine POV. Its really bad when you are only T3 and steray assault cannon round or relic blade kills you in one hit. You can't run aroudn tryign to avoid Str 6 weapons. Multi-lasers, plasma weapon, autocanons, krak grenade launchers,, and more are all instant death to T 3. So don't spend too many points on a T 3 IC. In fact I'm having toruble thinking of one that has EW except the Masque.
Yarrick does.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 22:06:13
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Minneapolis
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Yarrick does.
Yarrick is also T4.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 22:09:15
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Illumini wrote:A green tide list without the ranged anti-tank to take out some dreads is in trouble for a ton of other reasons, not because of the dread. Nids have lots of MC's that absolutely smash dreads, they also have hiveguard. Necrons are sucky in general, and are equally boned by a standard dread most of the time.
You just listed a bunch of sucky lists (and a very old and bad codex) as the reasons for the unbalance of a dreadnought. If it is so unbalanced, why aren't we seeing tons of them?
Decent of angels is necessary, without it, BA's could not really "decent like angels" because deep strike is too risky without this rule. Even with this rule, jump armies are hardly dominating tourneys.
There are lots of things wrong with 40k, but most are with poor internal balance in codexes and with the muddy and not exactly awesome main rules.
More on topic, EW to all characters is a horrible idea for so many reasons. 40k is hero-hammer enough already.
You realise that thosse MC's that just smash dread are generally lower I than the blendernaught? It has enough strength and power weapon attacks to mulch a full trio for fexes without even getting warmed up, for example.. They don't even get to swing. This is the problem here, not that it's a dread, but that it gets to keep hitting and wounding you until you die, without ever getting a counter attack on it. Hive Guard are ho hum, frankly. They are walking ML's, but ML's aren't that good at taking down an av 13 dread  They also come in itty bitty squads, so their firepower isn't all that impressive.
Balanced does not mean 'marines can take it, easy...' It means that all armies have a decent chance of taking it down.
Green Tide needs antitank, but it relies on big blocks of troops, that aren't exactly easy to maneuver around a mob-killer like a blendernaught. Ork BS is low, so you'd need to concentrate a hell of a lot of fire on it to take it out before it mulches a unit. While you are doing that the other armour on the BA side (like the fast vindicators, for example) will be taking out your antitank, as will the SR's the dreads rode in on. You may not be seeing many where you're at, but they are like weeds around here.
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The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 22:58:36
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. George, UT
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:andrewm9 wrote:I see alot of you are anyalyzing ID from the marine POV. Its really bad when you are only T3 and steray assault cannon round or relic blade kills you in one hit. You can't run aroudn tryign to avoid Str 6 weapons. Multi-lasers, plasma weapon, autocanons, krak grenade launchers,, and more are all instant death to T 3. So don't spend too many points on a T 3 IC. In fact I'm having toruble thinking of one that has EW except the Masque.
Yarrick does.
Yeah things get real dicy for T3. S6 or greater and AP 4 or better stuff is super easy to come by. Whats worse is that even most T3 heros have at most 3 wounds (vast majority of T3 characters have 2). But then again, thats because they aren't found in GWs pet army. Even worse EW wont keep you from getting swept and destroyed either (as what happens to most all T3 units eventually). So really there isn't much point of putting EW on T3 heros, too many other ways for them to die.
Myself, I don't mind EW on characters as long as its appropriately accounted for in their cost (which is almost never). SW codex has EW worth 35 points. Thats actually pretty fair IMO
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See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:

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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 01:47:47
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker
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I like the Eternal Warrior rule. It's a good compromise as to how some models can be up front in the thick of fighting for 500+ years and somehoe never been hit with a power fist or meltagun. Some people are just touched by the gods of war and get to keep their cool even while the world is exploding around them.
I doin't -quite- like how inconsistent it can be, and the loopholes the rules do around it. Cassius and Mephiston are not EW...but really, toughess 6? Putting humanois on par with Tervigons just so they don't get insta-gibbed...you see where this can go.
I think Instant Death itself should be less common. Maybe make it (double toughness+1) strength required. Because they way it's being portrayed now is not really fun.
"Making people use their HQs wisely" is not what happens when I have to, say, keep Kharn the Betrayer or Cato Sicarius from charging at the enemy's CC specialists because it's a near-certainity that it'll be the end of their careers, instead using them to sucker-punch Devastators and other weaklings.
It's not really making things more intelligent or comple,x, just convoluted and harder. "Well, I can't charge any of these ork mobs because the PK nob will crush my HQ after I kill maybe 5 greenskins. Guess I drive this rhino all the way to the back and try to kill his Lootas in turn 4). Eating soup with a knife is harder too, and not smart.
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In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 02:15:22
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Dakka Veteran
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Sephyr wrote:I like the Eternal Warrior rule. It's a good compromise as to how some models can be up front in the thick of fighting for 500+ years and somehoe never been hit with a power fist or meltagun. Some people are just touched by the gods of war and get to keep their cool even while the world is exploding around them.
I doin't -quite- like how inconsistent it can be, and the loopholes the rules do around it. Cassius and Mephiston are not EW...but really, toughess 6? Putting humanois on par with Tervigons just so they don't get insta-gibbed...you see where this can go.
I think Instant Death itself should be less common. Maybe make it (double toughness+1) strength required. Because they way it's being portrayed now is not really fun.
"Making people use their HQs wisely" is not what happens when I have to, say, keep Kharn the Betrayer or Cato Sicarius from charging at the enemy's CC specialists because it's a near-certainity that it'll be the end of their careers, instead using them to sucker-punch Devastators and other weaklings.
It's not really making things more intelligent or comple,x, just convoluted and harder. "Well, I can't charge any of these ork mobs because the PK nob will crush my HQ after I kill maybe 5 greenskins. Guess I drive this rhino all the way to the back and try to kill his Lootas in turn 4). Eating soup with a knife is harder too, and not smart.
As for Cassius, he is nearly 75% machine so it's reasoned that he is tougher. Although this begs the question, since Calgar is also 75%+ machine, why isn't he T6? Would make him a lot more useful. And Mephiston is a daemon prince, wait until 6E when the inquisition finds him.
That's what happens when super 250+ point HQ's join the game. I'd love to be able to charge so much with Vulkan as his stats and wargear and fluff, especially since reading Nick Kyme's tome of fire series, are just awesome. But, unfortunately for me, everybody I face except the guard players use some easy mode beatstick like mephiston or ghaskgul or logan beefnar or draigo, all of which are extremely easy to use and a huge crutch, that's right I'll say it. A huge crutch to players who are too lazy to play an army vs army game, so they opt for the easy HEROHAMMER variant that is so popular nowadays. And the worst part, whenever any of these players engage in pooptalk prior to the game all they can brag about is "Insert random super 250point beatstick superhero IC" and how he'll mess me up., preventing any close combat where they wouldn't just be instantly gibbed.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/01 02:21:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 07:04:34
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Minneapolis
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Although this begs the question, since Calgar is also 75%+ machine
And Necrons are 100% machine, so T7 all around!
This is actually one thing I dislike: discrepencies in explanations (the most glaring is that Ragnar Blackmane has quick reflexes, which give him his invulnerable save. The entire Eldar/ DE/Tyranid army has quick reflexes, and logically should be given an invulnerable save for such).
Of course, it was also funny with the old assassins who, because they were good at dodging, had their invulnerable save. However, while they could some how dodge a flamer fuel bath, they couldn't dodge bullets from a psycannon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 10:16:01
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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BronzeJon wrote:.... I'd love to be able to charge so much with Vulkan... use some easy mode....all of which are extremely easy to use and a huge crutch, that's right I'll say it....
You accuse others of using the easy button? Vulkan is still the best HQ in the game, and he is extremely cheap for what he does for your army. Mephiston can be shot down with a plasma squad or smashed apart with termies and he is gone as a problem. Vulkan's boost stays the entire game, and is much more powerful than a simple beatstick.
You realise that thosse MC's that just smash dread are generally lower I than the blendernaught? It has enough strength and power weapon attacks to mulch a full trio for fexes without even getting warmed up, for example.. They don't even get to swing. This is the problem here, not that it's a dread, but that it gets to keep hitting and wounding you until you die, without ever getting a counter attack on it. Hive Guard are ho hum, frankly. They are walking ML's, but ML's aren't that good at taking down an av 13 dread They also come in itty bitty squads, so their firepower isn't all that impressive.
If it is on an AV13 chassis, then it is slow as hell, and can be avoided for a long time. It also has lower side and rear armour, so use that. You also just need to immobilize or get one WD and suddenly, it is useless/worse than a regular dread. Zoey's can kill it from the front if that is your prefered way. If you can't figure out a way to deal with such a slow-moving, fragile close combat threat, then I can't really help you. Even necrons can reliably stop it before it reaches them. Stuff like Mephiston and bog standard jump marines is more scary for them.
There is a reason one doesn't see them often in tourney play, and it is because they are too slow and too fragile to contribute enough to the game in comparisson with their cost.
Yes they can be more dangerous with a stormraven, but that is a frikkin 200+ point AV12 transport! It should help A LOT for that kind of pts.
Balanced does not mean 'marines can take it, easy...' It means that all armies have a decent chance of taking it down.
Balanced means that a unit is fairly costed in comparisson with it's abilities and stats.
Close combat ork horde sucks for so many other reasons than blenderdreads, nids struggle as a codex for so many reasons other than the blender dreads, necrons struggle because of the lowered power of glancing hits, and because the meta is heavy with termies, fast CC units and mech armies, not because of blenderdreads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/01 10:17:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 19:43:37
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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You asked for one rule that was unbalanced. That's one.
There are many others.
Capping the additional attacks to not make more additional attacks, like every other attack generator in the game, would help.
Yes, you can take blender dreads down, especially with side and rear shots. They aren't unkillable. I've already said this, but you seem to be fixating..
What i'm objecting to is the blender rule that allows a dread worth less than 200 pts to wipe squads worth several hundred more than it without them ever getting to swing back. This rule is a touch much. If you disagree that the RULE is a bit much, then that's your business, but in my opinion it is OP.
Using your interpretation of balanced, it's not fairly costed for it's abilities  125 pts of dreadnought should not be able to destroy 700 pts of tooled up infanty or 1000 pts + of MC's in one combat turn, without even having a chance of being struck back upon until it finally manages to stop hitting and wounding, with a reroll to wound on every strike, at S 7 power weapons. It's a touch much.
Granted, if you do manage to take our a claw arm it loses the ability, but with furious charge (I 5 on the charge), and smoke launchers for the turn it pods in or is dropped off...
You seem to be assuming that they will be footslogging slowly towards the enemy, never running, not being transported to the ugliest spot to drop them.
In general you have one turn to take them down before they plow the nearest unit under. Moving and running away doesn't thelp, as they can move just as fast, run and assualt. (they're fleet).
Sure, you can deffrolla them, if you happen to have one within 12'' of their drop zone in a striaght line. You can shoot them (but it'll likely bounce off unless you are getting rear shots and will likely miss if you are running orks) in the hopes of killing a limb. Sometiems you will get lucky.
Nonetheless they are still OP for 125 pts  I get the impression you've never faced them as Necrons, Orks (that aren't all hiding in metal boxes under a KFF anyhow) or Nids?
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The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 20:13:24
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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You know, in my codex (Tau) there isn't a single model with a Toughness greater than 4 or with the Eternal Warrior ability.
Heck I can only field 1 model with FNP in an army.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/01 20:24:09
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Because for GW game balance is something with all the IOM armies on one side, and all the xeno armies plus the bag of extra stuff they gave the IOM armies on the other.
Tau, unfortunately, suck right now, even at their supposed strengths. Ditto Necrons.
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The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 01:55:46
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Norn Queen
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Illumini wrote:If you can't figure out a way to deal with such a slow-moving, fragile close combat threat, then I can't really help you. Even necrons can reliably stop it before it reaches them. Stuff like Mephiston and bog standard jump marines is more scary for them.
If you can't figure out why Tyranids have issues dealing with mechanised threats, particularly mechanised threats that can ride in other mechanised threats and bend their MC's over its mechanised knee and spank them with their mechanised cliche-claw, no one can help you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/02 01:56:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 09:21:54
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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-Loki- wrote:Illumini wrote:If you can't figure out a way to deal with such a slow-moving, fragile close combat threat, then I can't really help you. Even necrons can reliably stop it before it reaches them. Stuff like Mephiston and bog standard jump marines is more scary for them.
If you can't figure out why Tyranids have issues dealing with mechanised threats, particularly mechanised threats that can ride in other mechanised threats and bend their MC's over its mechanised knee and spank them with their mechanised cliche-claw, no one can help you.
Illumini wrote:nids struggle as a codex for so many reasons other than the blender dreads
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 09:57:05
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Norn Queen
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Illumini wrote:-Loki- wrote:Illumini wrote:If you can't figure out a way to deal with such a slow-moving, fragile close combat threat, then I can't really help you. Even necrons can reliably stop it before it reaches them. Stuff like Mephiston and bog standard jump marines is more scary for them.
If you can't figure out why Tyranids have issues dealing with mechanised threats, particularly mechanised threats that can ride in other mechanised threats and bend their MC's over its mechanised knee and spank them with their mechanised cliche-claw, no one can help you.
Illumini wrote:nids struggle as a codex for so many reasons other than the blender dreads
That doesn't make they inability to deal with a blenderdread any less valid.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 18:56:31
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Trygon will rip it apart, and can do it before it even get's to strike, same with hive tyrant and swarmlord
Zoanthropes can kill/immobilize/WD it while staying outside of charge range.
Hive guard can take down the raven easily, sure, the dread will have gotten one 24" move forwards, but then it is slow again, might as well have bought a drop pod. If the dread exposes it's side armour to the hive guard, it will be damaged. Drop pod delivery = free KP and likely to expose side/rear armour to some hiveguard
Tyrannofex can blow it apart at range
A S10 doom will blow it up
Even against a slow carnifex, if the dread charged, the dread will inflinct slightly below 2 wounds on the carnifex. It will then take about 2 pens back = rapidly loosing dreadnought.
I really don't see the doom and gloom of this "broken OMG unit", even for the poor nids. Every MC except tervigons, tyrannofex and harpy will be very likely to come out on top in cc against a clawed furioso.
Dread + nasty cc unit + stormraven can of course hurt like hell, but that is usually 700pts in one fragile package, and should hurt like hell if you manage to get it across the table.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 19:11:10
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Illumini wrote:Trygon will rip it apart, and can do it before it even get's to strike, same with hive tyrant and swarmlord
Zoanthropes can kill/immobilize/WD it while staying outside of charge range.
Hive guard can take down the raven easily, sure, the dread will have gotten one 24" move forwards, but then it is slow again, might as well have bought a drop pod. If the dread exposes it's side armour to the hive guard, it will be damaged. Drop pod delivery = free KP and likely to expose side/rear armour to some hiveguard
Tyrannofex can blow it apart at range
A S10 doom will blow it up
Even against a slow carnifex, if the dread charged, the dread will inflinct slightly below 2 wounds on the carnifex. It will then take about 2 pens back = rapidly loosing dreadnought.
I really don't see the doom and gloom of this "broken OMG unit", even for the poor nids. Every MC except tervigons, tyrannofex and harpy will be very likely to come out on top in cc against a clawed furioso.
Dread + nasty cc unit + stormraven can of course hurt like hell, but that is usually 700pts in one fragile package, and should hurt like hell if you manage to get it across the table.
A Carnifex is T 6, It is S 6 reroll to wound with power weapons, 7 on the charge (if you fail the red thirst or have a death company dread) and keeps rolling as long as it keeps hitting and wounding, It will hit the fex on a 4+ and wound on 3's witha reroll. What are you smoking that makes that a max of 2 wounds? I've seen blendernaughts take a whole brood without reprisal.
AGAIN, since you seem to have missed it, it's not that the unit is unkillable, but that it's vastly undercosted for it's effect.
Also, why do you keep referring to a fleet dreadnought as being slow? It can move 6, run 1d6 then charge 6'. It's not exactly plodding along.. Podding it in does give your opponent a free KP (in missions that use kp..not all do) bt anyone with a little tactical skill will drop them in a place where the dread is out of the field of fire from most of the nastier shooty units, or at least covered, and next to a nice wet target. Some armies can deal with this better than others, generally those with metal moxes to hide in and antitank weapons in every squad, but some armies won't have that luxury.
Have you been up against blendernaughts used by someone competent, and not playing against Marines? I'm getting the impression that you haven't.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/02 19:15:02
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 19:15:06
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
Minneapolis
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A Carnifex is T 6, It is S 7 reroll to wound with power weapons, 8 on the charge and keeps rolling as long as it keeps hitting and wounding, It will hit the fex on a 4+ and wound on 2's witha reroll. What are you smoking that makes that a max of 2 wounds? I've seen blendernaughts take a whole brood without reprisal.
I thought furiosos, being a dreadnought, were natural S6, not 7. They also are WS6 and so hit a fex on 3s. Also I didn't think furiosos were fleet. I thought that was death company dreads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 19:27:35
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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I edited it for typo (above)
I was referring to Blendernaughts (usually Death company dreads). Furioso's have the same option, but aren't fleet.
Furiosos have less attacks (3 - 4 on the charge) but will hot on a 3+, so they'll be racking up the rerollable wounds too
It's beatable. I've beaten them before. It is, however, undercosted for it's capabilities, making it an unbalanced rule.
In case anyone thinks it's just marine hate, i thing Living Metal is undercosted for it's abilities too, and i'm a Necron Player. Right now it's only fair, to counteract the enormous drag factor of the Phase Out rule, but Liths are a bit points low.
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The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 19:32:43
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Ascalam wrote:Illumini wrote:Trygon will rip it apart, and can do it before it even get's to strike, same with hive tyrant and swarmlord
Zoanthropes can kill/immobilize/WD it while staying outside of charge range.
Hive guard can take down the raven easily, sure, the dread will have gotten one 24" move forwards, but then it is slow again, might as well have bought a drop pod. If the dread exposes it's side armour to the hive guard, it will be damaged. Drop pod delivery = free KP and likely to expose side/rear armour to some hiveguard
Tyrannofex can blow it apart at range
A S10 doom will blow it up
Even against a slow carnifex, if the dread charged, the dread will inflinct slightly below 2 wounds on the carnifex. It will then take about 2 pens back = rapidly loosing dreadnought.
I really don't see the doom and gloom of this "broken OMG unit", even for the poor nids. Every MC except tervigons, tyrannofex and harpy will be very likely to come out on top in cc against a clawed furioso.
Dread + nasty cc unit + stormraven can of course hurt like hell, but that is usually 700pts in one fragile package, and should hurt like hell if you manage to get it across the table.
A Carnifex is T 6, It is S 6 reroll to wound with power weapons, 7 on the charge (if you fail the red thirst or have a death company dread) and keeps rolling as long as it keeps hitting and wounding, It will hit the fex on a 4+ and wound on 3's witha reroll. What are you smoking that makes that a max of 2 wounds? I've seen blendernaughts take a whole brood without reprisal.
AGAIN, since you seem to have missed it, it's not that the unit is unkillable, but that it's vastly undercosted for it's effect.
Also, why do you keep referring to a fleet dreadnought as being slow? It can move 6, run 1d6 then charge 6'. It's not exactly plodding along.. Podding it in does give your opponent a free KP (in missions that use kp..not all do) bt anyone with a little tactical skill will drop them in a place where the dread is out of the field of fire from most of the nastier shooty units, or at least covered, and next to a nice wet target. Some armies can deal with this better than others, generally those with metal moxes to hide in and antitank weapons in every squad, but some armies won't have that luxury.
Have you been up against blendernaughts used by someone competent, and not playing against Marines? I'm getting the impression that you haven't.
Get your facts straight.
You can't have both a death company dread and a furioso in the same "SUPER-blenderdread!" The DC variant has more attacks and fleet, but also rage and AV12, so much easier to lead around and to simply kill with hiveguard.
The furioso has four attacks on the charge, AV13, but not fleet.
A furioso that charges will inflict 4*0,66*0,5*0,66*0,5...etc wounds on carnifexes, which equals (i.e: likely result, not max) about 2 wounds. You can get furious charge on them for slightly more wounds, but that is unlikely/cost even more points, and even then, the carnifex is likely to still be there with 1-2 wounds left and ready to smash the poor dread apart.
AGAIN, since you seem to have missed it, it's not that the unit is unkillable, but that it's vastly undercosted for it's effect.
A 10pt meltagun can kill a 5000pts WARLORD TITAN!!!! OMG! MELTAGUNS IZ ZE BROKENS!
Units have their roles, blenderdreads are bad at most things, but unlike normal dreads, they can actually kill a bunch of little dudes, so they can't be tarpitted by little guys. For this, they give up most ranged weapons and they give up S10 weapon. IMO, that is hardly a good trade, especially as they loose all extra ability with a single WD result.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/02 19:33:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 19:48:58
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Huge Hierodule
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Couldn't find the preceding page, but here's the aftermath of EW in action...
I miss when my Carnifexes could pull this off against D-armed titans...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/02 20:03:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 20:56:15
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Illumini wrote:
A 10pt meltagun can kill a 5000pts WARLORD TITAN!!!! OMG! MELTAGUNS IZ ZE BROKENS!
1) It is not 5000pts.
2) That is assuming the 6 Void sheilds are gone, or you are inside them
3) Try getting into melta range without getting blown to pieces, or stood on.
4) If you somehow manage to continue rolling Chain Reactions, then it has 2/6 of exploding as a normal vehicle does. It also has a 1/6 chance of sending out an autowounding, armour and cover ignoring, instakilling explosion(+1 to vehicle damage with auto pen), with a minimum range of 6", so that squad is gone, though the blast has a maximum range of 36". It rolls 6D6 for range.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 20:59:59
Subject: Re:Eternal Warrior
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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So about as likely as a furioso blenderdread ripping through 3 carnifexes in a single round then?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 21:01:00
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Lightcavalier wrote: But then again I think that ID from double T should be scrapped for a multiple wound per degree sysetm....S9 vs t3=3 wounds type deal.......but thats for another thread
I support this idea, S10 vs t4 = 2.5 round down to 2. 3 wound character would survive, but with more damage then getting hit by a less powerful weapon.
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DR:80+S++G+MB--I+Pw40k03+D+A+++/areWD322R++T(F)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/02 21:10:18
Subject: Eternal Warrior
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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lindsay40k wrote:Couldn't find the preceding page, but here's the aftermath of EW in action...
I miss when my Carnifexes could pull this off against D-armed titans...
Where is this from? It looks badass.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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