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iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

Half of Cadia is still in imperial hands ( and the chaos fleet actually suffered badly in the voidwar so it is not only Quarren's fleet which is depleted ), which is one of the reasons why the 13. Black Crusade isn't over yet.

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

He has a majority hold of the surface. Imperial forces have been pushed back to the smallest continent. I did not, at any point, say that Abaddon had control over Cadia. Imperial forces remain on Cadia, but since the fleet is gone Chaos forces can move unmolested.

iproxtaco wrote:
Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

Caida is not gone, unless you have source that said that ( beside the fact that 3/4 of planet is in Chaos hands )?
They have orbital support + help is on the way while Chaos fleet is beaten and those unfortunate Chaos solders on Cadia will be overwhelmed by fresh Imperial troops when they arrive.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

Caida is not gone, unless you have source that said that ( beside the fact that 3/4 of planet is in Chaos hands )?
They have orbital support + help is on the way while Chaos fleet is beaten and those unfortunate Chaos solders on Cadia will be overwhelmed by fresh Imperial troops when they arrive.

Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

The Cadian Gate is a gate. chaos doesn't need to have complete control over it to get through, they just need to force it open and get a wedge in afterwards. Which they've done. So Abaddon was successful.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

Which they did. Gav Thorpe I believe said it was a minor victory for Chaos, in WD. There's a thread on dakka which details the results, it has the quote.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

Which they did. Gav Thorpe I believe said it was a minor victory for Chaos, in WD. There's a thread on dakka which details the results, it has the quote.

Where is the link?

Oh missing, so your questionable claims won't fall....

Gav thorpe also did a csm dex. Turned out well for the CSM.

My apologies, here it is -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Oh, and here is the quote, from Andy Chambers, not Gav Thorpe -

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers

Medium of Death wrote:As much as Draigo is a hero in his owns terms.

If he went toe to toe with the despoiler he'd get off a little bit worse for the experience...

Perhaps even dead.

One can dream.

Game terms definitely, though Abaddon's current design pretty much forgoes any force-boosting potential to make him a melee monster at that cost. In terms of fluff though, as you were talking about, it seemed like GW really wanted to create an Imperial counterpart of similar, personal prowess.

iproxtaco wrote:My apologies, here it is -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Oh, and here is the quote, from Andy Chambers, not Gav Thorpe -

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers

The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

Tresspassers? will be eaten.



The imperial navy:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

The response of the IoM isn't quick, but certainly not powerless or scattered. Abby was immobilized, so his force has been sacrificed to enable him to move again. There is a reason why it is called a 'minor' victory.

The fight against chaos was joined by Eldar and Necrons. Worlds and systems held because these xenos ended the threat of abby's minions regularly. You may find it in the results page: ( a link in the linked post, sadly not sure if I have the WD myself to check it ):
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

1hadhq wrote:
Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

This, the Cadian Gate is still in the hands of the Imperium no matter 2/3 of the planet is in Chaos hands - Abbadon doesn't control the Gate, his fleet is beaten and he has no means to reinforce his troops on Cadia. And Ultramarines send their Honor Guard on Cadia to finish off the Heretics. And when the best Space Marines ever ( quote from M.W. ) send their elite warriors in battle that is automatic win for them

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

This, the Cadian Gate is still in the hands of the Imperium no matter 2/3 of the planet is in Chaos hands

It isn't. No one controls it.

Abbadon doesn't control the Gate, his fleet is beaten and he has no means to reinforce his troops on Cadia

No one has said Chaos controls the Gate. No faction does.

And Ultramarines send their Honor Guard on Cadia to finish off the Heretics. And when the best Space Marines ever ( quote from M.W. ) send their elite warriors in battle that is automatic win for them

Mindless optimism.

To state things simply, he is extremely powerful.

LoneLictor wrote:If I remember correctly he's supposed to be about the strength of a Daemon Primarch, considering that he's favored by all 4 Chaos Gods and they've offered him Daemonhood 12 times (probably 13 now). So yeah, he's more powerful in the fluff.

So, wait, the choas gods offer him deamonhood for every failed black crusade?

I forgot which but in the codex or rulebook it said that the last bit of imperium on cadia was on the smallest continent and chaos warships were over the planet fighting imperial warships and no food or water can come in so they will die from starvation

Kinda forgot were i red that.

I need to turn reading the line 'mindless optimism' into a drinking game.

Viersche wrote:in the fluff his daemon sword can destroy a landraider just by touching it right?

Well that only puts him on par with his in game abilities... I've popped a LR more than once with him!

He was pretty much a bad mamma jamma before the heresy now he is more on par with a primarch.

Phiasco II wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:If I remember correctly he's supposed to be about the strength of a Daemon Primarch, considering that he's favored by all 4 Chaos Gods and they've offered him Daemonhood 12 times (probably 13 now). So yeah, he's more powerful in the fluff.

So, wait, the choas gods offer him deamonhood for every failed black crusade?

No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

Well all those crusades failed in the end, with 13 being partial success - until Ultramarines, Space Wolves and others arrive anyway.

Brother Coa wrote:Well all those crusades failed in the end, with 13 being partial success - until Ultramarines, Space Wolves and others arrive anyway.

No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

iproxtaco wrote:
No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

What? The codex did say that help are on their way and that several Space Marine chapters are with them.
It's your mindless optimism to think that Abbadon's forces with no support from defeated Chaos fleet will last when they arrive.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

What? The codex did say that help are on their way and that several Space Marine chapters are with them.
It's your mindless optimism to think that Abbadon's forces with no support from defeated Chaos fleet will last when they arrive.

I've made no point about Abaddon's future prospects. Right now? The Gate is open, no one controls it. If you want me to speculate then fine. Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large. That poses a huge problem to the weakened Imperial Navy. Sure, there's some reinforcements on the way. Firstly, we do not know the size or composition of this supposed force. It could be a handful of regiments, or it could be an entire Crusade. Considering the already weakened state of the surrounding system's defenses, I'm going to say it's not as much as you think, definitely not enough to retake Cadia and other planets Abaddon controls. Now, providing they exist, these reinforcements are going to have a difficult time making their way through the Warp Storms and then coordinating a possible defense. Saying that a few Chapters of Astartes are going to uproot the forces of Chaos on Cadia is stupidly optimistic. It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia can't take control of the rest of the planet.
2. Imperial Navy is controlling the Cadian airspace.
3. Abbadon's fleet is beaten and he has no way of bringing help.
4. if 1 Astartes chapter can halt entire Tyranid Hive Fleet ( Blood Ravens, Ultramarines x 2 ) then seveal marine chapters can without great difficulties retake the planet.
5. They are probably escorted by several Cadian Regiments recalled to their homeworld to help.

It's over for Chaos, in 42'nd millennium Cadia is still Imperial world.
I am done here, everything else to say is pure speculation and talking nonsense.

He's gotta be one of the strongest dudes in the 40k universe tbh favoured by all four gods and being the best marine Horus ever had. He may not have taken over cadia but he's only one fella so I'm sure thats preeeeeeeetty reasonable lol

As for comparisons, Calgar may be able to stand up to him seen as he killed an Avatar, it being a demi-god and all..........

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

optimism at its best....

iproxtaco wrote:
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You are aware of the style of your posts. Good. Feared we should take this discussion of abby serious.

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

iproxtaco wrote:In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

Can't decide what you want to claim, can't you?
Horus was able to convince others to support him, was able to redirect the forces of the imperium.
Abaddon has just greed and fear to motivate his followship. And already pissed on xenos to move them to the side of the IoM if he attacks.
Somehow, Horus halved the imperial forces and kept the xeno out. Abby? Generates foes like cheap bread.

iproxtaco wrote:
Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large.

Uncounted could end with just a few are there and alive and kicking....
2 unknown don't make for a good comparision of chances.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Again, why is it so hard to accept the decision GW made?
The obvious decision, not to hand over Cadia ever? Have you listened to the GD reports and the questions about worldwide campaigns? GW pretty much said they won't allow to be moved where they don't like to go. Exactly that happened to EoT.
I may not understand how one can think GW would aim for a decisive victory of chaos.
Wasn't it clear where a chaos leader may end? shall I point at whfb and this guy on his demonic steed?

So no, Cadia is not gone.
But the chance to influence the fluff is.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia can't take control of the rest of the planet.
2. Imperial Navy is controlling the Cadian airspace.
3. Abbadon's fleet is beaten and he has no way of bringing help.
4. if 1 Astartes chapter can halt entire Tyranid Hive Fleet ( Blood Ravens, Ultramarines x 2 ) then seveal marine chapters can without great difficulties retake the planet.
5. They are probably escorted by several Cadian Regiments recalled to their homeworld to help.

It's over for Chaos, in 42'nd millennium Cadia is still Imperial world.
I am done here, everything else to say is pure speculation and talking nonsense.

Imperial troll is a Imperial troll

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia are still fighting. Wether or not Creed's order to not give a single step to the enemy is a realistic one is open for debate.
2. Imperial Forces seem to control the spacelanes but, as it has been described in the 13. Black Crusade sourcebook, Quarren lost the bulk of his fleet.
3. Just as the Imperium of Mankind will have to penetrate the warpstorms which engulf the Cadian gate if any reinforcements are to be sent to Cadia.
4. The Bloodravens managed to halt a small splinterfleet, in cooperation with an entire subsector's worth of pdf troops. The Ultramarines ultimately managed to beat Behemoth trough the sacrifice of nearly 200 imperial warships including the Dominus Astra. On the ground they were supported by titans and, of course, ultramar pdf troops. Spacemarines by themselfs are, thanks to their limited numbers and very limited amount of heavy equipment, wholy inadequate if you actually wish to conquer a planet.
5. It doesn't matter how many cadian regiments are recalled to Cadia if the system/ sector itself is cut off by warpstorms. Depending on the size of those storms the situation might be just as bad as during the 12. Black Crusade.

I therefore fail to see how it is "over for Chaos" and how Cadia must be an imperial world in the 42. millenium. Perhaps Creed suceeds (by stalling chaos until the warpstorms fade for example ) or perhaps he fails and Cadia becomes a daemonworld which shares the fate of poor Ulthor. What we actually know is that the cadian gate as well as the surrounding sectors, including Scarus which is in severe danger of being conquered by a huge ork whaagh and Agripina which has been devastated, are engulfed in a bitter struggle for survival. While Agripina might have been saved for now ( although the loss of several hive and agriworlds might affect the sector severely )