Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

Pilau Rice wrote:

And Chaos Marines have also formed impromptu alliances with other races, maybe not the Eldar or Necrons, but certainly Dark Eldar and Space Marines.

When push comes to shove everyone is going to fight everyone.

Wouldn't dispute the basic "royal rumble" setting of 40k.

But Alliances of marines and spiky marines? Are you sure?

iproxtaco wrote:
It's evidence to suggest that Abaddon's forces COULD be greater than that controlled by Horus. Since there's little to no other information about Abaddon outside of the Chaos Codex and Eye of Terror book, it remains to be seen. However, since this book was written and released in 2010/2011, it points to the wider picture.

Evidence? a BL series? Don't let the canon/not-canon group of dakka hear this....

The wider picture is a picture to come, as Abby is stuck in a 4th ed dex... and has almost no fluff in 5th ed , be it codices, expansions.
Horus controlled ~50% of the space marines and imperial army detachments and ad mech detachments. The non astartes are estimated at a nearly similar split, so maybe also 50%. Plus all the loyalists he was able to sent off who couldn't contribute to the fight would count in favor of Horus strength. How should Abby compete with this?

iproxtaco wrote: If you actually want to continue this line, then think about the fact that it's also everyone against the Imperium, by the same reasoning.

Not exactly.
The former minions of the old ones are stated in codex necrons as enemys.
Humans are stated as part of the C'tans plans.
So in a fluffy reasoning, orks and eldars are polar opposites of the necrons and thus a primary objective in a 'killing list' if the crons have such.
The great plan of the C'tan includes cutting of the warp, thus chaos is planned to be contained, not spread. So chaos is also most likely on a near top position in this list.

Eldar know chaos and know they have to oppose it. So anyone vs chaos has the Eldar more often than not supporting him.
The Eldar try to fight the rising necrons, since they know them and the younger races don't. But this won't lead to eldar in the chaos team against the crons. The elfs would rather keep out until they are able to beat the survivor.
So chaos is bereft of possible team-mates in this case.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's the results of the campaign. Deal with it.

I have no issue with the publisher...as I accept what GW wrote, said and intended.
But i'll keep on disputing your dreaded interpretation of it. The way you present it, does not give me the impression you've read the material.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good one. A Blackstone Fortress is suddenly not a threat because some unpredictable alien races COULD attempt to take it out? Brilliant.

Thanks again. I was sure you deem this brilliant.

The alien races are interested enough in the fate of the blackstones to interfere guaranteed.
Because the blackstones aren't just fortresses.....

iproxtaco wrote:
Well this is plainly wrong. You might be able to find one example of humans being thrown off of a Tomb World, as I've never heard of it, but the majority of encounters have humans being slaughtered to the last.

No it isn't wrong.
The majority of encounters you are thinking of are those where the humans talking with guns, not words.
Necron fluff is rare, but still lately they start talking so maybe it was just the automated defense not being able or entitled to talk to 'intruders'. i am not saying there is no risk we lose the fluff and have it replaced with something less believable, but actually necrons fight humans when they enter necron property, like everyone else would. They don't actively seek out humans, but nids for example.

Necrons joined forces with BA for example. To kill nids. Necrons 'sided' with Tau against nids for a short period and killed the Tau afterwards.
Humans are less targeted as they are part of their plans. Competition like nids or opposition like chaos, elfs and orks is annihilated ASAP.
Tau are just to annoying...so attacked too. Its pretty much explained in codex necrons. ( except Tau as they didn't exist ).

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm always in preacher mode.

no OFF-switch ?

Maybe I shall discontinue to reply.
with words. that is. * grabs boltgun *

iproxtaco wrote:
It's lost from what I can see.

Youre not looking hard enough!
Whatever will influence the amount of troops sent to Cadia hinges on the design of 6th ed.
5th had Cadia pretty able to contribute to the IG if you browse the IG dex...

I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

LoneLictor wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

I mean't about the amount of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

I mean't about the amount of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

Once again, you're being mindless optimistic. I knew what I was talking about and you're assuming that I was talking about something I wasn't; Mindless Optimism at its most Mindlessly Optimistic.

Cadia is gone? Then why do I see so many Cadian armies? Oh wait... that's right. Cadia isn't gone. It did exactly what it's supposed to. Be a gate against Chaos. Sure they didn't repel the Black Crusade but, they did stop it in its tracks. And no where (that I've seen) has there been any resolution to the battles raging there. It's like saying that Armageddon is destroyed because the end result was 50/50.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:Cadia is gone? Then why do I see so many Cadian armies? Oh wait... that's right. Cadia isn't gone. It did exactly what it's supposed to. Be a gate against Chaos. Sure they didn't repel the Black Crusade but, they did stop it in its tracks. And no where (that I've seen) has there been any resolution to the battles raging there. It's like saying that Armageddon is destroyed because the end result was 50/50.

They stopped the Crusade, but there's no resolution? Contradict yourself much? It's not so much that Chaos has taken Cadia, it's simply that I see no way in which the Imperium is going to be able to control the planet fully again. And before you jump in and say "oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

*switch boltgun to full burst mode*
*safety off*
I'd suggest to rethink your assumptions, iproxtaco. Opinions may change, but yours should.

GW must not provide a resolution... they are more often than not happy with an unresolved battle.
So Deff dreads point is fine.

PS: I 'd consider that we don't need pages of 'troll' vs 'troll' here.
PPS: in dire need, the triangle of 'friendship' may help...

1hadhq wrote:*switch boltgun to full burst mode*
*safety off*
I'd suggest to rethink your assumptions, iproxtaco. Opinions may change, but yours should.

GW must not provide a resolution... they are more often than not happy with an unresolved battle.
So Deff dreads point is fine.

Saying the Crusade has been stopped, but there's no resolution is a stupid contradiction. It's very much on-going. Since this is the background forum, I'm going by the fluff, and right now Cadia is heavily contested, but I don't see how the Imperium in it's current state can control it again.

PS: I 'd consider that we don't need pages of 'troll' vs 'troll' here.
PPS: in dire need, the triangle of 'friendship' may help...

I wasn't accusing Coa of being a Troll. The second part of his statement was hugely ironic given the context.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.
"oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

Quite indeed....

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.
"oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

Quite indeed....

That would be valid if there were some sort of contradiction in what I say, or if I refused to acknowledge that my stance isn't quite the same as before. Unfortunately, you fail, but at least you're mindlessly optimistic, so that should keep you going.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's very much on-going. Since this is the background forum, I'm going by the fluff, and right now Cadia is heavily contested, but I don't see how the Imperium in it's current state can control it again.

Contested is something different than lost. would you've gone with contested, who would not agree?
Codex IG (5th ed) has the 13th crusade as late in the M41's ( 999 ? ) and Creed isn't stated as defeated or the planet as lost.
Specifically page 26/27 shows the active warzones and Cadia is one. Active warzone, so its not resolved yet and shouldn't be called lost but contested. Contested worlds may go to either side until GW moves the story. ( except the fact of cadians as one of only 2 lines of plastic guard make it unlikely to hand it to chaos. )
The usual response of the IoM to contested sytems/worlds is to send reinforcements. There is no hint they cannot provide these.
Page 26/27 states reinforements redirected to cadia. Cadia is important enough to have primary access to any available force.
Since GW designers have no idea of scale and 'IG has millions of regiments, any half assed piece of fluff can and will push the scales of power in GW's intended or most favored direction.
So you may not see it, but it is a good bet Cadia will not be lost.
GW may use this stripping of forces from elsewhere to allow other threats ( xenos maybe ) to have their piece of the imperial cake.

Like I said, and don't get me wrong I don't necessarily think you're wrong, is that the Imperium in it's current form is incapable of gaining full control of Cadia, and the Cadian Gate.

It's pressed for forces as it is, the constant attacks of all the myriad foes in the galaxy is beginning to take it's toll. Between Orkz, Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos, ther's nothing to suggest that they have copious amounts of guardsmen to make it seem like they can easily hold down the fort.

Crudance may have said in his Codex that there are billions of regiments, but one throw-away line does not make it so. One of the main theme of 40k, and I'm certain I don't have to tell you, is that the Imperium is decaying, it's losing this war, planet at a time.

Abaddon and the forces of Chaos present the most immediate threat to the Imperium, above the Orkz or Tyranids. It's the reason the Cadian Gate was built in the first place.

Now, since the overreaching theme is that the Imperium is hard pressed to defend itself, and that there are not enough men to hold the breach, and that Abaddon's Crusades always make the Imperium divert huge amounts of forces to stop them making other areas more vulnerable, and the fact that the forces of Chaos control most of Cadia's surface (which includes fortresses, anti-ship defences etc), with the horde possibly being the majority of Abaddon's Crusade, I see no way in which the Imperium can launch a successful campaign in it's already weakened state.

Cadia may well be contested, that doesn't mean one side necessarily has the ability to gain control. The few forces left on the planet are obviously fighting back, but they don't realistically have the chance to win, from what I can see.

The "throw away" line as you call it, wasn't disproven as wrong with valid sources as GW dropped the concept of believable organizational structures and so a different thread ( about IG structure ) had dakkanauts like me left not so happy with the performance of GW-writing.

But, the theme of the guard is also nigh unlimited numbers.
Its nothing new, just badly done with examples like chenkov who sqeezes nids flat under marching columns of IG.
If you can trample nids, why would you have trouble to provide enough troops to reclaim anything ?

Rare tank designs were untied of restrictions ( Executioner, vanquisher ) and you may field as many as you like nowadays.
Baneblades were rare too. Then a plastic kit was on the shelf and the Baneblade available in companies of 3+ vehicles, without any reminder of former restricted availability.
GW dropped the theme of decay whenever it hampered sales.

The overall theme surely is an imperium hard pressed on all sides. But its still the main actor of the 40k-"movie" as I may call it.
Abby is at best the arch-villain. His fate as another eternal 'i will return for bloody vengeance' character is pretty much set.

Sooner or later the main theathres of war move on and Cadia is freed by CREED. Tried to keep him out, but thinking of it, how may a
old grumpy fart with bad hairstyle stand a chance against a man like CREED. ?

Honestly I think the Cadian Sector is doomed to decades of meat grinder-esque conflict, the situation on Cadia right now is basically a stalemate. However, time is on the Imperium's side as they have far more resources at their disposal then Abaddon's forces, and that's even with the fact that the Imperium is slowly decaying.

Even if the entire Eastern Fringe is lost, even if all of Segmentum Tempestus is lost, the Imperium won't give up the Cadian Gate and will continue to flood reinforcements into it. It's too important, too symbolic, too reminiscent of the horrors of the Horus Heresy, and too close to Terra. Abaddon can never take it and will just continue to bleed both sides in decades of vicious struggle. But I guess this works for a true child of Chaos.

1hadhq wrote:
The overall theme surely is an imperium hard pressed on all sides. But its still the main actor of the 40k-"movie" as I may call it.
Abby is at best the arch-villain. His fate as another eternal 'i will return for bloody vengeance' character is pretty much set.

Sooner or later the main theathres of war move on and Cadia is freed by CREED. Tried to keep him out, but thinking of it, how may a
old grumpy fart with bad hairstyle stand a chance against a man like CREED. ?

I do not think that the 13. Black Crusade even needs a resolution. The war could go on for centuries and, on a larger scale, relatively little would change.
In fact i would think that a longterm war of that size would be actually good for the setting. Minor xenos armies would get something to do, Abaddon stays scarry and
the 5 minutes to midnight scenario can be milked without any need to design yet another black crusade.

Will that make Cadian Guard vs Black Legion the next beginner's set? Please say yes...

Now here is someone who can beat Abaddon with ease:

Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Durza wrote:Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Keep dreaming Chaos fanboy...

He totally ruin Abaddon's plan of conquering Cadia, and he destroyed entire Eldar invasion force with MINIMAL losses.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Keep dreaming Chaos fanboy...

He totally ruin Abaddon's plan of conquering Cadia, and he destroyed entire Eldar invasion force with MINIMAL losses.

I can dream... and my dreams will tear down the facade that is your Imperium.

What exactly is MINIMAL for the Imperial Guard? And Abaddon's plan was to destroy the Imperial ownership of Cadia. Since Cadia is still contested, he succeeded.