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1hadhq wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

How is that a parallel universe, those are things that Abaddons forces have achieved during his Black Crusades, and the proof is in the pudding, 13 Black Crusades and he's more than likely still got more things planned, if they decide to advance the timeline on that is.

I'm not sure on your point concerning the article as I accept that it wasn't a full win for Chaos, nor have I said it was.

KingDeath wrote:

Imperial troll is a Imperial troll

Said by the guy that say "corpse emperor" all the time.
Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

optimism at its best....

Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

iproxtaco wrote:
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You are aware of the style of your posts. Good. Feared we should take this discussion of abby serious.

Yes, reasoned and balanced, going off the results of the campaign rather than wishlisting the outcome.

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

iproxtaco wrote:In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

Can't decide what you want to claim, can't you?
Horus was able to convince others to support him, was able to redirect the forces of the imperium.
Abaddon has just greed and fear to motivate his followship. And already pissed on xenos to move them to the side of the IoM if he attacks.
Somehow, Horus halved the imperial forces and kept the xeno out. Abby? Generates foes like cheap bread.

In some respects, being the key phrase of my post. He's still aware of the fact that putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea. Evidence: Horus's failure at Terra. He gambled in an even confrontation, and lost the bet. We already know Abaddon thinks Horus a fool for his failure.

iproxtaco wrote:
Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large.

Uncounted could end with just a few are there and alive and kicking....
2 unknown don't make for a good comparision of chances.

I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Again, why is it so hard to accept the decision GW made?
The obvious decision, not to hand over Cadia ever? Have you listened to the GD reports and the questions about worldwide campaigns? GW pretty much said they won't allow to be moved where they don't like to go. Exactly that happened to EoT.
I may not understand how one can think GW would aim for a decisive victory of chaos.
Wasn't it clear where a chaos leader may end? shall I point at whfb and this guy on his demonic steed?

So no, Cadia is not gone.
But the chance to influence the fluff is.

The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.
This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.
2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.
3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.
This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

So you're saying that the good guys won't win because that's not dark enough, but the bad guys aren't allowed to win either... I really don't see how this can seem logical to you. You've discounted three of the four contenders for no apparent reason.

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

'Uncounted meaning 'a lot'. As it usually does.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

There's also an instance of a dead regiment being sentenced to death. Your argument is invalid.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.

And what happened to the last Eldar to go into a Blackstone?

2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.

Yes, because that's the only bad idea that's been used...

3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

Unless they wanted to be surrounded...

Durza wrote:
So you're saying that the good guys won't win because that's not dark enough, but the bad guys aren't allowed to win either... I really don't see how this can seem logical to you. You've discounted three of the four contenders for no apparent reason.

It follows GW's logic.
Do I need to say more?

Durza wrote:
There's also an instance of a dead regiment being sentenced to death. Your argument is invalid.

When bureaucrats miss to record changes of status this invalidates what I am saying how?

Exactly not an inch,as its unrelated.
So maybe a certain company does not write the story like some fans want them to. And said company even stated they won't allow the fanbase to influence the fluff in global campaigns again. Xenos benefited from the outcome, chaos? Was there a codex in 5th?
Anything altered on Cadia's status in 5th?
Go on underestimate the will of GW to have their way. It directly leads to disappointment.

Durza wrote:
And what happened to the last Eldar to go into a Blackstone?

Hes still a playable character?

Durza wrote:
Unless they wanted to be surrounded...

Surely they want to be cast down.

Not being entirely sure what 'exactly not an inch' means, I'm going to assume it meant 'It doesn't'. And just because Cadia isn't listed as lost doesn't mean it's not fiercely contested.

Just because he's a playable character doesn't mean he's not dead.

Contested would be accurate.


EoT is from 2003.
Codex IG is from 2008.

GW had a few years to consider to integrate campaign results or not to. Both sources show Cadia as contested.
Thus its an active warzone, like Armageddon. Would you call Armageddon lost because its unlikely they get rid of the orks there completly?

GW has listed worlds as lost if they want to, like worlds turned into demon worlds, eaten by nids, exterminated, etc etc.
Cadia is too integral to the background. A change like 'cadia lost' wouldn't come without an alternate course of the Background.
But 5th has kept the course of 'contested' places and incoming threats.

If someone says Mindless Optimism one more time I will burn them

Durza wrote:most importantly, never in the fluff do you hear of him deciding to smack himself in the face with it. So, definitely more powerful in the fluff.

Best way of putting it.....ever.

Thanks

1hadhq wrote:Contested would be accurate.


EoT is from 2003.
Codex IG is from 2008.

GW had a few years to consider to integrate campaign results or not to. Both sources show Cadia as contested.
Thus its an active warzone, like Armageddon. Would you call Armageddon lost because its unlikely they get rid of the orks there completly?

GW has listed worlds as lost if they want to, like worlds turned into demon worlds, eaten by nids, exterminated, etc etc.
Cadia is too integral to the background. A change like 'cadia lost' wouldn't come without an alternate course of the Background.
But 5th has kept the course of 'contested' places and incoming threats.

Might not be lost, but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

Durza wrote:
Might not be lost, but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

I would...

Really? I'd prefer somewhere nice where there's an infinite supply of plot armour. Titan maybe.

Billagio wrote:If someone says Mindless Optimism one more time I will burn them

Oh that's just Mindless Optimism.


*duck*


Someone brought up Eldrad. it's not unheard for GW to use dead characters as playable in Codexes(codii, whatever) Jacobus from the SoB, died from some crazy lung virus and is in almost every sisters list.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.

Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

Uncounted, as in the vast majority of situations, especially this one, means lots. I'm the one that used the word, that's what I meant behind it.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.

Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.

There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

They have an advantage in space. Abaddon has the advantage on the ground. Space is arguably more important for a confrontation. Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls, and there's still the looming threat of the Blackstone Fortress and Planetkiller. The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

That's directly from the horses mouth, that's why he betrayed the Night Lords and joined Abaddon. Because he was sick of being little more than a pirate and butcher. Because Abaddon can and has actually achieved things.

And Hurons Empire rivaling Abaddons doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. Whats Huron done with it apart from raid a few planets and stole some ships?

1hadhq wrote:The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

Yes because Humans, Eldar and Necrons form stable alliances with each other on a regular basis.

At best, Huron rivaling Abaddon was because they both are the major forces in their respective warp spaces.

Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

You'd assume so, since they do it a lot in fluff.

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Yeah, but reinforcing Cadia isn't what they need really. They need to clear the Imperial Navy Fleet so that they can actually move their ships about and move outwards from the Sector. Qarren has them by the balls at the moment unless a major Chaos attack comes from the Eye to displace them. Which might not be for a while as the vast majority of Chaos Vessels were already involved.

Surely Typhus' fleet could be convinced to help? He has his own planet now doesn't he? Besides, if the gods decided to help, they could just spawn a load of daemons inside the Imperium's ships.

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Brother Coa wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Actually, Coa does have a good point there. On Cadia itself, they are pretty stuck. The other planets though, this would be a possibility. But Henners is saying, why can't they open up actual portals on Cadia I guess.

However, from the Death of a Thousand Cuts article

At the last the combined efforts of the forces of Order kept Abaddon from his ultimate goal of controlling the Cadian system but, in the process, the Cadian Gate has been ravaged. Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems.

So the pylons are possibly not working at full potential anymore maybe?

Pilau Rice wrote:
So the pylons are possibly not working at full potential anymore maybe?

Hm..... the logic may be that pylons prevent the planet or even maybe a whole solar system from warp rifts. But nowhere is said that warp storm can surround the solar system with solar system itself staying intact from any kind of Warp anomalies ( like a peace of land that lost it's connection to the mainland and thus becoming an island ).

Durza wrote:Surely Typhus' fleet could be convinced to help? He has his own planet now doesn't he? Besides, if the gods decided to help, they could just spawn a load of daemons inside the Imperium's ships.

Yeah, Ulthor in the Agripinaa system. I think it would be fairly difficult for him to get from their to Cadia maybe.

Brother Coa wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Blackstone Fortresses, which "slice trough the barriers separating the warp and realspace" ( BFG, Ships of the Gothic Sector, Blackstone Fortress entry ) work over Cadia.
It is therefore likely that other warprifts can be created as well.
The pylons probably distinguish between huge warpstorms, like the eye of terror, and a "relatively" minor warprift, like the one used to create a Blackstone Fortress's beamweapon.

iproxtaco wrote:
Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

Oh well, a first captain who deems himself mightier than the warmaster of the whole imperial forces and a sorceror and a former apothecary agree on it. This backs up what exactly? That marines aren't perfect and able to make mistakes?
Abby never was sane to begin with. After davin.... I mean come on youre handing your primarch to shamans and cultists?

In hindsight, its easy to claim goals were achieved..

iproxtaco wrote:
Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

Beeing cut of is a position to hold out?
Each day something new learned..

iproxtaco wrote:What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

Sorry its everyone against chaos. Chaos has no allies. DE, Orks and nids act like wildcards and the rest opposes chaos.

iproxtaco wrote:
Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

Yes, sadly replying to you seems irrelevant.
Go on blindfolded, wasn't aware you are on a trip to outperform a wellknown fanboi.
Gw ran the campaign,'its GW's decision to take or to ignore. The fanbase has no say and like the design team hinted at, never will.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

Thanks, its my pleasure to point at good jobs.

Blackstones are no threat as either eldar or necrons will act if it shows up.
Thus these oh so powerful vessels are "disabled" .

The necrons already have plans with humans, and they pretty much tend to side with humans in conflicts, even to the point where humans are allowed to leave where other creatures would be killed. The gain of the necrons is no doubt nothing too positive for humanity, but still necrons are actively opposing chaos and nids. Humans are usually thrown off of necron soil, not sought and hunted like the minions of the old ones and minions of the warp.

iproxtaco wrote:
There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

Shouldn't it threaten planets?
See, no singular vessel is invincible. And the slow firing mode makes it even unlikely it hits moving targets.

iproxtaco wrote:They have an advantage in space.

Why didn't you agree on that several posts ago?

iproxtaco wrote:Abaddon has the advantage on the ground.

Who disputed this?

iproxtaco wrote:Space is arguably more important for a confrontation.

So were back to reason. 'word bearer dark apostle full sermon mode' been switched off now? Appreciated.

iproxtaco wrote:Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls

This is to be seen, unlikely before 6th ed and a new CSM dex.

iproxtaco wrote:The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

Cadia isn't lost.
IDK where you get that idea from. The IoM never gives up on worlds who belong into the fold and even the tiniest foothold would be enough to mount attempts to reclaim it over and over again. Nobody withstands the waves of attrition warfare.
( surely not in the cruddace era, when IG has billions of regiments.. )

Pilau Rice wrote:
That's directly from the horses mouth, that's why he betrayed the Night Lords and joined Abaddon. Because he was sick of being little more than a pirate and butcher. Because Abaddon can and has actually achieved things.

And Hurons Empire rivaling Abaddons doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. Whats Huron done with it apart from raid a few planets and stole some ships?

IF abbadon would achieve things, no one would call him failbaddon...

Huron? The same as Abby, raided worlds and stole ships.

Both have no chance to win. They may go on a rampage but thats all they will do.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yes because Humans, Eldar and Necrons form stable alliances with each other on a regular basis.

Alliances are not neccessary. Common threats provide enough motivation to undo chaos first.
Necrons fought alongside BA. Humans and Elfs fought on many occassions on the same side. Its just one tiny step....
A small step for (he who shall not be named) and a great step forward for 40k fluff.

It does say in the Chaos codex that Abaddon has proven himself his mentor's equal. So that means he's at least as powerful now as Horus was.

1hadhq wrote:

Huron? The same as Abby, raided worlds and stole ships.

Both have no chance to win. They may go on a rampage but thats all they will do.

But he's not united the forces of Chaos 13 times, nor has he done anything on the scale of a single Black Crusade.

1hadhq wrote:Alliances are not neccessary. Common threats provide enough motivation to undo chaos first.
Necrons fought alongside BA. Humans and Elfs fought on many occassions on the same side. Its just one tiny step....
A small step for (he who shall not be named) and a great step forward for 40k fluff.

And Chaos Marines have also formed impromptu alliances with other races, maybe not the Eldar or Necrons, but certainly Dark Eldar and Space Marines.

When push comes to shove everyone is going to fight everyone. The Eldar hate the Necrons as much as the forces of Chaos as much as Tyranid.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

Oh well, a first captain who deems himself mightier than the warmaster of the whole imperial forces and a sorceror and a former apothecary agree on it. This backs up what exactly? That marines aren't perfect and able to make mistakes?
Abby never was sane to begin with. After davin.... I mean come on youre handing your primarch to shamans and cultists?

In hindsight, its easy to claim goals were achieved..

A First Captain's adviser and sorcerer deems Abaddon's might is greater than that of the Warmaster, and an Apothecary who hates almost everyone outside of his small warband begrudgingly agrees with someone he despises more than almost any other. It's evidence to suggest that Abaddon's forces COULD be greater than that controlled by Horus. Since there's little to no other information about Abaddon outside of the Chaos Codex and Eye of Terror book, it remains to be seen. However, since this book was written and released in 2010/2011, it points to the wider picture.

iproxtaco wrote:
Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

Beeing cut of is a position to hold out?
Each day something new learned..

Being cut off on a planet with extensive ready made fortifications and anti-orbital/areal defenses, with plenty of forces on the ground puts them in a position to hold out for the long time. It prevents them from advancing.

iproxtaco wrote:What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

Sorry its everyone against chaos. Chaos has no allies. DE, Orks and nids act like wildcards and the rest opposes chaos.

It's everyone against everyone. To believe otherwise is wrong. If you actually want to continue this line, then think about the fact that it's also everyone against the Imperium, by the same reasoning.

iproxtaco wrote:
Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

Yes, sadly replying to you seems irrelevant.
Go on blindfolded, wasn't aware you are on a trip to outperform a wellknown fanboi.
Gw ran the campaign,'its GW's decision to take or to ignore. The fanbase has no say and like the design team hinted at, never will.

It's the results of the campaign. Deal with it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

Thanks, its my pleasure to point at good jobs.

Blackstones are no threat as either eldar or necrons will act if it shows up.
Thus these oh so powerful vessels are "disabled" .

Good one. A Blackstone Fortress is suddenly not a threat because some unpredictable alien races COULD attempt to take it out? Brilliant.

The necrons already have plans with humans, and they pretty much tend to side with humans in conflicts, even to the point where humans are allowed to leave where other creatures would be killed. The gain of the necrons is no doubt nothing too positive for humanity, but still necrons are actively opposing chaos and nids. Humans are usually thrown off of necron soil, not sought and hunted like the minions of the old ones and minions of the warp.

Well this is plainly wrong. You might be able to find one example of humans being thrown off of a Tomb World, as I've never heard of it, but the majority of encounters have humans being slaughtered to the last.

iproxtaco wrote:
There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

Shouldn't it threaten planets?
See, no singular vessel is invincible. And the slow firing mode makes it even unlikely it hits moving targets.

Correct, no singular vessel is invincible. This vessel isn't, as one has already been destroyed, but denying it's power is ridiculous. Like any large Cruiser sized vessel it needs support from smaller and faster ships. It was destroyed when the support fleet withdrew. A fully operation Planet Killer is a formidable weapon.

iproxtaco wrote:They have an advantage in space.

Why didn't you agree on that several posts ago?

Disputing the evidence. Until you quoted that small paragraph it was knowledge I had no idea of.

iproxtaco wrote:Abaddon has the advantage on the ground.

Who disputed this?

I'm not arguing the point, simply stating it.

iproxtaco wrote:Space is arguably more important for a confrontation.

So were back to reason. 'word bearer dark apostle full sermon mode' been switched off now? Appreciated.

I'm always in preacher mode.

iproxtaco wrote:Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls

This is to be seen, unlikely before 6th ed and a new CSM dex.

I still doubt it.

iproxtaco wrote:The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

Cadia isn't lost.
IDK where you get that idea from. The IoM never gives up on worlds who belong into the fold and even the tiniest foothold would be enough to mount attempts to reclaim it over and over again. Nobody withstands the waves of attrition warfare.
( surely not in the cruddace era, when IG has billions of regiments.. )

It's lost from what I can see. Since Abaddon has what could be a majority of his forces on the surface in a position to defend for the long term, it seems very unlikely that the Imperium is going to be able to gather enough forces to forcibly shift his forces.