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Kilkrazy wrote:And that is why men are doomed. DOOMED I TELL YOU!

Wait... I thought it was the opposite conclusion.

We've collectively said "feth it! You want to go to work and earn equal pay? Fine! We'll be the ones that stay at home all day."

I say that's a win for men!

Kilkrazy wrote:And that is why men are doomed. DOOMED I TELL YOU!

There aren't doomed; nobody said that. Rather society is slanted in favor of woman, as opposed to men now. Society will always have some sort of slant related to race or gender or whatever.

Da Boss wrote:Lictor, you assume she would have been fired, in reality, she would have only been fired (well, more likely, reprimanded) if someone had made an issue out of it. If you'd made an issue (I mean, a big enough issue) out of her saying that about boys, then she probably would have been fired, too.

Maybe. I don't have her as a teacher anymore so I guess I'll never know. I guess what I should've said was: if she had said "Boys are smarter than girls" people would've made a big deal, but since she said "Girls are smarter than boys" the thirty kids and another teacher in there didn't make a big deal out of it.

LoneLictor wrote:I had a teacher who said in front of the classroom that girls are smarter than boys.

As Genghis Connie would say, "truth hurts."

Able to out think you, outpaint you, outrun you (at least cross country), and outshoot you. All hail your future Great Khan!

Interesting article. I see the trend the author describes all the time. A rediculous number of men I meet are nearing 30, but are living their lives as though they are still in college (or high school).

Alot of folks will probably disagree with the author's final statement, but regardless of what you feel about marriage, expectations of industriusness and religious community, the reality is that these institutions have been tossed off and not replaced with any equally effective social institutions of order.

If men don't have any social pressure -or any that they deem worth bending to- pushing them to exceed then where's the incentive to produce, exceed, marry or actively father?

Phototoxin wrote:SO basically the 'oppressed' women are doing better in first world countries where they have MORE rights than men and anyone who asks one for a cup of coffee in an elevator is oppressing them?

Your misogynistic trolling aside, I refute the underlying assumption here-- despite the gains women have made, we still earn less on average than men do. It's just that women happen to be closing the gap faster than before.

The reason that was given in the OP was that this is because women are working harder and smarter t han this generation's men. I don't know if I agree with that, but that was the argument-- that women are succeeding more because we're actually trying more.

Eilif wrote:If men don't have any social pressure -or any that they deem worth bending to- pushing them to exceed then where's the incentive to produce, exceed, marry or actively father?

How about that vaunted self-interest that capitalistas keep pushing on us as the most divine force ever created?

Melissia wrote:

Eilif wrote:If men don't have any social pressure -or any that they deem worth bending to- pushing them to exceed then where's the incentive to produce, exceed, marry or actively father?

How about that vaunted self-interest that capitalistas keep pushing on us as the most divine force ever created?

I may take a few kicks for this one but while I feel that Capitalism is the foundation for the best economic systems, my opinions are:
-Self-interest without social responsibility is just greed.
-Unfettered Capitalism without regulation just leads to fewer on the very top more on the very bottom and less in the middle.

LoneLictor wrote:Maybe. I don't have her as a teacher anymore so I guess I'll never know. I guess what I should've said was: if she had said "Boys are smarter than girls" people would've made a big deal, but since she said "Girls are smarter than boys" the thirty kids and another teacher in there didn't make a big deal out of it.

Well, there is a cultural "pass" to making positive statements about females as a gender that you can't make about men as a gender. It's a pretty nasty double standard that doesn't affect me in the least.

On the other hand, every time I have sex with a new person, I only become more successful. So, sure, call women smarter or believe in "women's intuition." I'll be over here enjoying a double standard that's a lot more fun!

Eilif wrote:Interesting article. I see the trend the author describes all the time. A rediculous number of men I meet are nearing 30, but are living their lives as though they are still in college (or high school).

Alot of folks will probably disagree with the author's final statement, but regardless of what you feel about marriage, expectations of industriusness and religious community, the reality is that these institutions have been tossed off and not replaced with any equally effective social institutions of order.

If men don't have any social pressure -or any that they deem worth bending to- pushing them to exceed then where's the incentive to produce, exceed, marry or actively father?

That is an interesting question to ask. Personally, I feel the need to "mature" my life with continuing my career, finding a spouse, and to "father", as you so eloquently put it (seriously). But I think this drive is more personal then social as it seems all of my friends are now married and they continue to tell me to stay single, which I do not quite understand why...even the women in these relationships are telling me this. I feel no pressure to marry (actually feel pressured to stay single) because of the social and economic atmosphere that we live in currently.

Of course, I, personally, do not think I live my life as if I am still in high school or college. I have a drive to want to move into my first house (but missing the spouse to go along with it). I want to possibly get my Master's Degree to continue my career. I want to find that special someone who I can live with for the rest of my life. But this is hard to determine because I am a gamer, so by definition, I spend a lot of time playing games with my friends and those online. But I have a drive to continue myself so this is what might be missing with many of my generation. And I saw this all the time in my high school. Almost ALL of the males didn't care if they went to college or if they could get a job, they just wanted to continue with their current existance with life just going past them.

There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

Polonius wrote:There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

Incorrect.
Color coordinated outfits.

Zyllos wrote: I want to find that special someone who I can live with for the rest of my life.

You don't have to be married to do that, and its a lot less complicated if you aren't and "the rest of your life" turns out to be 5 years or so.


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Polonius wrote:There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

And what is to be is generally thought of as "soft" like emotional security or freedom from social pressure, as opposed to material.

Marrying would be the second worst, socially acceptable, financial decision I could make, just short of having a child.

dogma wrote:

Zyllos wrote: I want to find that special someone who I can live with for the rest of my life.

You don't have to be married to do that, and its a lot less complicated if you aren't and "the rest of your life" turns out to be 5 years or so.

Thats interesting to say that also. I am a kind of person who likes continuity and stability. So seeing myself with someone for the rest of my life seems to make sense. But the product of our time may not allow this anymore.

So do I live in the past? I don't think so (even thought I still think chivalry is not dead but I will gladly let a lady hold the door for me). Complication is something that I am willing to risk because I want that stability. I am ready to make those compromises to let a relationship endure. But as you have stated, maybe this generation doesn't value these things anymore.

Zyllos wrote:

dogma wrote:

Zyllos wrote: I want to find that special someone who I can live with for the rest of my life.

You don't have to be married to do that, and its a lot less complicated if you aren't and "the rest of your life" turns out to be 5 years or so.

Thats interesting to say that also. I am a kind of person who likes continuity and stability. So seeing myself with someone for the rest of my life seems to make sense. But the product of our time may not allow this anymore.

So do I live in the past? I don't think so (even thought I still think chivalry is not dead but I will gladly let a lady hold the door for me). Complication is something that I am willing to risk because I want that stability. I am ready to make those compromises to let a relationship endure. But as you have stated, maybe this generation doesn't value these things anymore.

What happens to the kids?

Frazzled wrote:
What happens to the kids?

Maybe I am lost on the question, do mean our current generation?

Polonius wrote:There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

Wow...disagree.

And disagree with Dogma as well.

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
What happens to the kids?

Maybe I am lost on the question, do mean our current generation?

No the little terrorists you create you whipper snapper. Whats their situation? This screams unstable to me, and kids need stability.


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whitedragon wrote:

Polonius wrote:There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

Wow...disagree.

And disagree with Dogma as well.

And what is your view WD?

dogma wrote:Marrying would be the second worst, socially acceptable, financial decision I could make, just short of having a child.

Having children has never been cheap. It's almost always a poor financial decision because the costs of raising kids are high and are borne when you are young and haven't developed a high earning potential.

But people keep having kids, meaning that it's more than simply an economic decision.

Having a kid may have been one of the worst financial decisions I've made, but it's also one of the best decisions I've ever made overall (another being getting married).

In the old days, people had a lot of kids because of the chance of survival and of course of the belief that many hands make light work.

Frazzled wrote:

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
What happens to the kids?

Maybe I am lost on the question, do mean our current generation?

No the little terrorists you create you whipper snapper. Whats their situation? This screams unstable to me, and kids need stability.

What screams unstable? Is it that I am young or that I am not settled into my career to begin a family? I would hope the relationship would last before children comes into the picture, therefore as someone stated after your post, my earning potential would be higher.

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
What happens to the kids?

Maybe I am lost on the question, do mean our current generation?

No the little terrorists you create you whipper snapper. Whats their situation? This screams unstable to me, and kids need stability.

What screams unstable? Is it that I am young or that I am not settled into my career to begin a family? I would hope the relationship would last before children comes into the picture, therefore as someone stated after your post, my earning potential would be higher.

None of those my man. My point is referring to voluntarily having children without the greater stability of marriage. After all, kids are a 20+ year commitment. "Baby daddy" isn't going to cut it.

Frazzled wrote:None of those my man. My point is referring to voluntarily having children without the greater stability of marriage. After all, kids are a 20+ year commitment. "Baby daddy" isn't going to cut it.

Hmm, maybe I mistyped my post but I think I was saying the same thing? I want a marriage before having children but was commenting how Dogma and Polonius asked some important questions about how my generation seems to not care about these things.

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:None of those my man. My point is referring to voluntarily having children without the greater stability of marriage. After all, kids are a 20+ year commitment. "Baby daddy" isn't going to cut it.

Hmm, maybe I mistyped my post but I think I was saying the same thing? I want a marriage before having children but was commenting how Dogma and Polonius asked some important questions about how my generation seems to not care about these things.

Ok we may be crossing wires a little bit then.

Personally, I agree that marriage is not for everyone. But for those who want kids its a preferable option for the benefit of the kids.

Plus all you turkeys are forget about that getting old thing. You think the single ladies are going to put up with your when you're 60 with a beer belly?

Frazzled wrote:

Zyllos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:None of those my man. My point is referring to voluntarily having children without the greater stability of marriage. After all, kids are a 20+ year commitment. "Baby daddy" isn't going to cut it.

Hmm, maybe I mistyped my post but I think I was saying the same thing? I want a marriage before having children but was commenting how Dogma and Polonius asked some important questions about how my generation seems to not care about these things.

Ok we may be crossing wires a little bit then.

Personally, I agree that marriage is not for everyone. But for those who want kids its a preferable option for the benefit of the kids.

Plus all you turkeys are forget about that getting old thing. You think the single ladies are going to put up with your when you're 60 with a beer belly?

60, while not that far in the future, is not something I am ready to think about yet (except in regards to retirement). It just seems the ladies of my generation are just screwy...everything is casual to them. Of course, there are so many others out there and I am the kind of person who likes to stay close to home, I might have to start doing things differently.

Zyllos wrote: But as you have stated, maybe this generation doesn't value these things anymore.

I don't think its that they aren't valued, so much as the idea of marriage as a sacrosanct institution to be aspired to is no longer quite so widely held.

People still definitely connect with the idea of permanent monogamy, its just become a more pragmatic connection.

Frazzled wrote:
What happens to the kids?

Assuming there are kids, wouldn't it still be an issue of legal custody? I mean, generally custody is connected to divorce, but cohabitation does occur and I'm sure its been a legal issue at some point.

biccat wrote:
But people keep having kids, meaning that it's more than simply an economic decision.

Having a kid may have been one of the worst financial decisions I've made, but it's also one of the best decisions I've ever made overall (another being getting married).

Of course, I wasn't implying that it was, most people like children on it least some level, and marriage is so heavily ingrained into society that its widely seen as the thing you do with that special someone (and its arguably a direct result of the seemingly human tendency towards monogamy).

My point is that, if you take those things away, the incentive disappears. I don't like kids in the least, and I don't attach any kind of significance to marriage, or even monogamy per se. For someone like me, getting married, or having children, would be valuable only on an external, or material level: eg. I've been dating someone for 7 years, and they want to get married.

Granted, that's true of financial incentives as well, though not in such an individualistic sense.

Frazzled wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Polonius wrote:There is almost nothing to be gained for men by marrying.

Wow...disagree.

And disagree with Dogma as well.

And what is your view WD?

...Steady sex life?


Also, what is this big ordeal with women being "less"? It's like the author WANTS woman to believe she's thought of as inferior, solely to nag.

Need more Arkansans, I tell you what.

dogma wrote:

Zyllos wrote: But as you have stated, maybe this generation doesn't value these things anymore.

I don't think its that they aren't valued, so much as the idea of marriage as a sacrosanct institution to be aspired to is no longer quite so widely held.

People still definitely connect with the idea of permanent monogamy, its just become a more pragmatic connection.

For some reason, that just does not feel permanent to me. It almost seems to boil down to an ethical issues between rights instead of about the marriage itself.

I don't know...*shrug*

There is something to be gained from marriage, and it has nothing to do with gender. Certainly two men who marry can get the same out of marriage as a man and a woman who marries, whom can get the same out of it as two women.

But in our age of instant gratification, how many people really take the time to actually fall in love before they drop their pants/get on their knees with a ring in their hands/say yes to the previous?

Polonius wrote:
On the other hand, every time I have sex with a new person, I only become more successful.

Wait, you're a gigolo?

dogma wrote:I'd actually go so far as to say that saving oneself for marriage has become socially unacceptable in certain circles, or at least extremely odd.

I've always personally found that trend to be irresponsible and infuriating...but then again I may be biased by the amount of associates I've seen being the typical "player" ; treating women like new toys that they quickly get bored of and then toss away so as not to be committed...

dogma wrote:I don't think its that they aren't valued, so much as the idea of marriage as a sacrosanct institution to be aspired to is no longer quite so widely held.

And can you blame this generation for seeing it that way? It used to be that divorce was taboo in America...the unsuccessful couple becoming social outcasts...now I'm not sure of the exact percentage but I do know that a good portion if not most marriages in the US these days end in failure...

Being a virgin is almost taboo in a lot of younger circles, in fact when my brother started dating his girlfriend the first thing our younger cousin asked was "Did you feth her?" to which my brother replied by putting him into a wrestling hold known as a 'banana split' which is incredibly painful.

It seems as if now and days the whole 'kiss and tell' aspect of a relationship is encouraged by a person's peers in order to affirm their position in a certain group. Although my viewings of the subject are skewed, my brother and I would never say anything about it because its a personal thing and the only reason I know he was having sex was because I caught him and his girlfriend about to and he fessed up to doing it before.

I personally don't get why people would want to brag about their own activities, but to each their own.

As far as marriage goes, I think you get a tax deduction for it as well as getting someone who hopefully feels the same level of love as you do. It provides a somewhat stable base for a potential family. Sure its financially terrible but its more of a cultural/personal thing, a man may want a family because he wants a family. Its also somewhat genetic, a man who successfully mates with a woman passes on his genes and satisfies some biological process. Of course this doesn't hold true for everyone, however its why there are fathers who would do anything for their kids and fathers who don't do anything for their kids outside of giving them food and a place to stay until they can leave.

I'm all for marriage and family, but then again right now I can't afford it.