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This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

That's all well and good, but does not matter for this discussion. We don't know what cubicle drone wrote that or even if it wasn't the night janitor. Their call/email system is notoriously inconsistent and should not be brought into rule discussions. The only valid sources for these discussions are the BGB/codexes and FAQ's.

-cgmckenzie

Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

But there are penalties when they move more than 6 inches, and some people think they should be able to move on from reserves and not suffer those penalties.

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

Some vehicles (examples: the Monolith, Walkers, and most superheavies) can only move 6" max.

rigeld2 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

But there are penalties when they move more than 6 inches, and some people think they should be able to move on from reserves and not suffer those penalties.

I'll bet the same people that cry about penalties for moving over 6" will be the first ones to claim the save for moving them flat out. My Battlewagons are over 6" long. If I want to fire the Big Shootas I start them on the board. Problem solved.

Millin wrote:This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

No offense, but this is about as valid as my little sister telling me how the rule works. He-said/She-said rulings cannot be trusted or confirmed and about 50% of the time, contradict themselves.

puma713 wrote:

Millin wrote:This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

No offense, but this is about as valid as my little sister telling me how the rule works. He-said/She-said rulings cannot be trusted or confirmed and about 50% of the time, contradict themselves.

Than Obviously your lil sister is a genious and should be in charge of the next core rulebook and all FAQ's.
Agreed though it's not vallid no matter how much sense it makes.

Although thinking more about it, there are only 2 wings on a plane left and right. The rear section is the Tailfin, so by GW's own FAQ not part of the hull. my .02

No, by GWs own FAQ they didnt even discuss it. They didnt say it WASNT hull, they just didnt even mention it.

It is hull, RAW, because it is not decorative

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, by GWs own FAQ they didnt even discuss it. They didnt say it WASNT hull, they just didnt even mention it.

It is hull, RAW, because it is not decorative

looking back on it more now, why on earth did they bother FAQ'ing it in the first place.
Ah how did I forget that when trying to snag on the FAQ...

I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

(I can always fall back to the DE thread about aethersails and say but it has Jets?) (LOL)

Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

Doesn't work, still need at least 8-9" of movement to pull that off.


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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

Doesn't work, still need at least 8-9" of movement to pull that off

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

Nope, up to 6" is combat, 6"-12" is cruising, 12+ is flat-out. The speed ranges don't change one bit. The only thing that changes is what weapons a fast vehicle is allowed to fire.

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

But a vendetta can then only shoot one TL lascannon, and so many guard players seem to think that this is "unfair", like it being so tall they almost never get cover saves.....

If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

Okay sorry to bring this back into the light, but I did not want to start my own Topic for this when this is already here.

Like previously stated that a wing is part of the hull per GW FAQ:

Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its hull? (p60)
A: Yes

This referring to page 60 for shooting at a vehicle and whether or not a wing can be measured to for being in range or under a template to be hit.

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases – this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting. (p11)

The reason that I am quoting this is that no two models can occupy the same place at the same time, but since previously stated a Large Oval Base is considered to be the space that flying skimmers occupy when you take into consideration for disembarking or assaulting a vehicle of this status.

If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle. (p66)

The reason that I am bolding this is that when you wreck a vehicle and it loses its base you just shift the models out of the way and then put them back into base contact after you move them.

If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible (the base might have been glued in place, for example), don’t worry about it. The skimmer’s anti-grav field is obviously still working and an immobilised skimmer will simply remain hovering in place, incapable of any further movement (including turning on the spot); a wrecked one is now a floating, burning wreck. Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions. (p71)

The reason that I am quoting this is that when you wreck a vehicle it loses its flying base. So when it is lowered you are shifting it from flying to the table. So if something is under it move it back and then place it back into contact with its hull. If you cannot remove the base for any reason treat it as normal as you did before.

Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. Players must clearly mark that a vehicle has been wrecked in any way they consider suitable. For example, they can turn the vehicle or just its turret upside down (and not sideways to gain extra cover!), place a marker or cotton wool on it to represent smoke and flames, and so on. (p72)

So when you consider a large flying base not being removed you just treat the base as the difficult terrain. If it is removed you just treat the whole thing as normal

The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both. (p80)

So for people who are talking about assaulting a vehicle if you can make contact with its hull for any reason you are still considered to be in contact with it.



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Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Zedrenael wrote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

It does, but only for this specific situation. It does not impact interaction with the edge of the table, just with terrain and other models.

Zedrenael wrote:

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

Mannahnin wrote:

Zedrenael wrote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

It does, but only for this specific situation. It does not impact interaction with the edge of the table, just with terrain and other models.

Zedrenael wrote:

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

It is assumed that a "skimmer" has a transparent 'flying base' not the large oval base. I have no problem measuring anything from the hull that is not an issue. Also another thing a tail fin or twin boom tail fin of a valkyrie is not a wing thus not truly covered in the FAQ, neither is it an extension of the fuselage that is the primary makeup of the hull. So for all intensive purposes it is completely decoration.

Also only when a large vehicle is supplied without a "base" (large oval base) do you use the model's hull instead. It also does not say all vehicles or only says "some".

Zedrenael wrote:

Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Citation needed.

Also, tail fins are absolutely not decoration.

You ignore the base for all purposes except for those specifically mentioned in the faq. In the section on vehicles and measuring distances, it says that because not all vehicles come with bases you cannot use the 'measure to the base' rule when dealing with vehicles.

There are specific exceptions to this rule but it only applies to those exceptions.

-cgmckenzie

rigeld2 wrote:

Zedrenael wrote:

Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Citation needed.

No, its the other way around. A citation is needed to prove that modification is legal and allowed.
Otherwise it isn't, as the rules tells us what we are allowed to do, not what we are prohibited from doing.

This is the infamous "The rules doesn't say I cannot do it"-argument.

Conversions are fine. Conversions and modifications are allowed/encouraged by the rules. (can't remember the page number atm) That's like saying you're not allowed to use a Tervigon because the model doesn't exist, and converting a Carnifex into one is not allowed.

You need to cite something that says you're not allowed to modify the flying stem.

No, that is simply not how the rules work.

It is really a very fundamental thing, and totally necessary to understand and accept in order to discuss the rules of this game.

Okay, so you're completely unable to modify or convert any mini. Awesome - thanks for that clarification.

While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

Gamesworkshop encourages conversions and modifications to the models. The rules also encourage conversions and modifications to the models(see all the galleries where a non standard pose is followed by "X runs this model as Y" in WD or the BGB). Hell, the ork kodex even has a page dedicated to showing you how to convert orks into even more awesome orks!

-cgmckenzie

p3 second paragraph under Bases, of the BRB allows for non-standard bases to be used with opponents permission. I hope that that is enough of a citation for you.

Steelmage99 wrote:While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

As was said, p3. Now that I've shown where I have permission (with my opponents permission) to modify the base, can you cite where it says I can't modify the large skimmer base?

Zedrenael wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

You're making a causal link between the first sentence and the second sentence. Take "the skimmer's base is effectively ignored" out of context and the meaning doesn't change. That clause doesn't rely on the first sentence. In fact, that clause stands alone. No matter what kind of base the skimmer came with, it is "effectively ignored". Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to show that they're talking about only the transparent flying base. The first sentence does not prove this. In fact, the first sentence does nothing for the rest of the paragraph. You could remove the first sentence and the paragraph would still mean the same thing.

Zedrenael wrote:It is assumed that a "skimmer" has a transparent 'flying base' not the large oval base.

You're making an assumption here that you're not given permission to make. They point out that skimmers have those bases. There is nothing in the rules above that suggests the rules don't work when they do not have those bases. Just because not all skimmers come with transparent flying bases doesn't mean the rules only pertain to the vehicles that come with them.

Zedrenael wrote: I have no problem measuring anything from the hull that is not an issue. Also another thing a tail fin or twin boom tail fin of a valkyrie is not a wing thus not truly covered in the FAQ, neither is it an extension of the fuselage that is the primary makeup of the hull. So for all intensive purposes it is completely decoration.

Also only when a large vehicle is supplied without a "base" (large oval base) do you use the model's hull instead. It also does not say all vehicles or only says "some".

These two statements are just plainly incorrect. The more specific skimmer rules override the more general vehicle rules. And I would call any part of the vehicle the hull. What gives you permission to dissect the Valkyrie into hull and non-hull pieces? Where are those guidelines so I can follow along?

As above. The Skimmer rules say that their base is always ignored except for certain specified purposes. Vendettas, Valkyries, Stormwavens (etc.) are all Skimmers, and so abide by those rules.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:p3 second paragraph under Bases, of the BRB allows for non-standard bases to be used with opponents permission. I hope that that is enough of a citation for you.

Right. You need your opponent's permission to modify a base. If you make any modification to it, he is within his rights to deny you permission to use that model. Normally this only happens if your modification has given you an noticeable in-game tactical advantage.

To create greater consistency, most large tournaments specifically forbid such modifications in their rules packets, or state that if a model has been modified, and in a game situation it derives an advantage over the stock model from that modification, it will be played as if it were the stock model. Adepticon and NOVA are two major events with such clauses in their rules packs.

The rear wings are structural and important to the flight of the valkyries just as much as the main wings

I find arguing that the tailfin is called rear wing is a little stretch of the rule even when INSISTING they play that way and then back up the claim using the aerodynamics of a plastic model.

I think the vast majority of Players if you ask them how many wings does a Valkyrie have would answer 2.

While I play it that the whole model has to fit on the table with my IA Elysians (7 outflanking skimmers at times) to avoid this type of argument the rule states the hull. The wings are part of the hull, the tail nor tail fins nor tail wings or any other name for it are not wings but are part of the models hull.

edited as already posted

p.s. Just tried to fly (throw) one of my Valks with a Tailfin and another without they both crashed 1.73 metres away so no difference (not really)