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So what part(s) consititute "the tail" as opposed to "the hull"? The struts that are attached to the main body of the valkyrie, or the stabilizers, or the tail flaps? The rules say everything is considered hull except the following things: "gun barrels, dozer blades, antenaes, banners and other decorative elements" (quoted from p56 of the BRB). I don't see tail fins or even tail listed as an exception. So unless you think that they fall under the "decorative elements" part of the exception they still count as part of the hull.

If the original rule was that ambiguous that they had to FAQ in the word "wings" why not add other parts of the model into the FAQ. The rule/FAQ should simply state the whole of the model or the whole of the base and there would be no need for interpretation.

Also note just edited my post above as it was ambiguous in itself

I cannot fathom where the confusion lies - GW faqed this and you come in from reserve, you shoot 1 gun, period. Not vague, noe ambiguous, and not debatabe. You don't have to like the rule, but trying to argue clear rules because you don't like them? Really?

The FAQ about the wings on a vehicle is because the rules state that wings are not targetable. This is, of course, referring to models like Sanguinary Guard and other infantry with big, fancy wings, not to vehicles. People who want to make their vendettas less shootable argue that the rule applies to all types of wings, not just those on infantry models.

-cgmckenzie

I think the next time someone argues a rule like this I'm going to have them write their arguement out for me on a peice of paper. I'll have them sign it, and I'll post it here for others to know who to avoid at the game table.

Until a new edtion, Flyers are skimmers and skimmers count the whole model as hull. Just move at cruising speed and be done with it. That is unless you're buddy buddy with the fellows in Pacifc Marauders who feel that the Dollar price of the model means that it should only count the base for the purposes of getting onto the table, as to consider anything else would make the model unplayable. It's a paraphrase, but it is the argument they gave me.

rigeld2 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

As was said, p3. Now that I've shown where I have permission (with my opponents permission) to modify the base, can you cite where it says I can't modify the large skimmer base?

No, and I never had any intention to provide such as restriction......because that is not how the rules work. This has been my point all along.
You asked for a citation that modifying the base was disallowed.....and I pointed out that that is not how the rules work.

It seems like you have now accepted that a permission is needed, not a restriction....and as such we are in agreement.
This has never been about the specific example of modifying the base of a model, but the correct way of reading and presenting the rules.


And, no, we are still not given any permission to modify or convert our models (apart from the base). Most of us choose to overlook this and happily convert, but we aren't actually allowed to do so by the rules.

Well, again, orks are specifically allowed to convert because of the page in the codex that encourages it and tells you how to do it. IG and SM(my only other codexes) apparently don't have such liberties. Puny 'umies...

-cgmckenzie

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

Combat speed is the same for all vehicles, skimmers included.

FAST vehicles get an upper speed band called "flat out". FAST skimmers get a further boost on top of this (it's just a bigger "flat out" speed band). Non-fast vehicles CANNOT go "flat out", cruising speed is their absolute limit (and some cannot move more than 6" a turn, period - except for special rules).
Fast vehicles also get to fire more weapons (generally) at a given speed band than non-fast ones.

Actually the book covers conversions as well by requiring the use of Citidel models. It doesn't say unaltered so you can reposition them and add anything to them made by Citidel which would still fulfill the requirement. Sadly this does preclude the use of any other company's product by RAW (including, ironically, Forgeworld products) [BRB p3].

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Actually the book covers conversions as well by requiring the use of Citidel models. It doesn't say unaltered so you can reposition them and add anything to them made by Citidel which would still fulfill the requirement. Sadly this does preclude the use of any other company's product by RAW (including, ironically, Forgeworld products) [BRB p3].

You seem to be in the same boat as rigeld2.

This is not how the rules work. In order to do X, you must be given specific permission to do X. Now replace X with "Conversions" and you'll see.

No, in this case, as long as I am using Citidel miniatures and, by extension their parts, I have fulfilled the rule in the book. Now it is up to you to show me where the limitation for converting said model is located.
For example, if I saw off an arm from a space marine and have it pointing in another direction how is this violating the rule? Or, if I take a head from one figure and put it on a different figure what rule have I violated? By rule as long as I am using Citidel models I am allowed to do this (since only the manufacturer is limited by rule).
And for the record it is not that you need a specific rule to give permission it is that you need a general rule to give permission and that a specific rule over rides that instance of the rules. If the rules are silent on an issue then you can not proceed. For instance there is a general rule that says that models may be moved during play. There are specific rules that say how/whether you may move specific types of models.

No, you STILL have it the wrong way round.

Please show a rule allowing you to alter said citadel miniature.

You are going by "it doesnt say I cant", when you have yet to find the general permission to do what you want to do.

I think this has gone too far off topic. If you want to argue about whether conversions are legal/illegal then someone should start another thread.

Here is the crux of the problem:
these guard players, for some reason, think that their skimmer with 3 twin linked las cannons for 130 points should be able to get 3 shots off before being targetted. Ignoring or attempting to reinterpret GW rules and FAQs, they try to justify using a unit incorrectly in an army that is already solid to the core. Seriously guys, do you just want a 300 point "I win" button?

The FAQ is clear, you move on flatout and get your cover save and shoot nothing, you move on and shoot 1 las cannon, or you start on the board and take your chances.

Wait - isn't that how every other army already works?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think this has gone too far off topic. If you want to argue about whether conversions are legal/illegal then someone should start another thread.

Oh....My....God!

We are not discussing whether conversions are illegal or not....just like we weren't discussing whether one was allowed to alter the flying base of a Valkyrie.

We ARE discussing the apparent inability of some people to understand that to do anything, anything at all, in this game we need a specific permission to do so.

Have you ever read any of GW's guides to painting and modeling?

Look at their articles on their website. You have permission to convert.

Look at GW's "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures". You have permission to convert.

Hell, the Painting Citadel Mini's guide even says you can build models from scratch.

Codex: Witch Hunters, pg. 57.

Do a small amount of research before you post. It reflects better on you.

Nocturn wrote:Have you ever read any of GW's guides to painting and modeling?

Look at their articles on their website. You have permission to convert.

Look at GW's "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures". You have permission to convert.

Hell, the Painting Citadel Mini's guide even says you can build models from scratch.

Codex: Witch Hunters, pg. 57.

Do a small amount of research before you post. It reflects better on you.

Except the How to Paint Citadel Miniatures" is not in the Rules.

the articles on their website are not rules.

The Painting Citadel Mini's guide is not the Rules or the BRB either.

The only thing you list that is even a book with rules is Codex: Witch Hunters, but pg. 57 is not rules either.

So, based on your way of thinking...

The models can't be removed from the sprues or painted, right?

It's not rules that say you can do it. It's just implied that you can.

Nocturn wrote:So, based on your way of thinking...

The models can't be removed from the sprues or painted, right?

It's not rules that say you can do it. It's just implied that you can.

All I am saying is that It is not a rules question since there are no rules about converting models.

Not that I would ever do this, but what if I simply glued the model in a nose dive or other way that it is still the unmodified model and it is on an unmodified base? How many people would allow that versus telling the person no way?

I am not sure how this is a you make the call thread. There is no unclear part about the rules.

The whole model must be on table.

The model IS capable of moving wholly onto the table, no it cannot fire all 3 of its weapons if it does so, but it can still physically move on as per the rules. Its not as if its so big it cannot move onto the board, there is no ambiguiity here.

And the cost of the model shouldnt mean anything, that would be as ridiculous as saying "well i spent 90$ for this stompa so your tourney has to let me play it" or "my dark eldar beast pack cost me $214 for 12 models, so you can't shoot me until I charge you because I cost too much to not get to use my abilities."

blaktoof wrote:I am not sure how this is a you make the call thread. There is no unclear part about the rules.

The whole model must be on table.

The model IS capable of moving wholly onto the table, no it cannot fire all 3 of its weapons if it does so, but it can still physically move on as per the rules. Its not as if its so big it cannot move onto the board, there is no ambiguiity here.

And the cost of the model shouldnt mean anything, that would be as ridiculous as saying "well i spent 90$ for this stompa so your tourney has to let me play it" or "my dark eldar beast pack cost me $214 for 12 models, so you can't shoot me until I charge you because I cost too much to not get to use my abilities."

It is in "You make the call" since the whole point of this was a questionable ruling sent down from GW. I too think it is all wet but I didn't want to just rant and rave about it. I wanted the input of Dakkaites on this. I am pleased that the majority feel as I do and that the Reserves rule makes entry of the entire vehicle a black and white necessity. So a DE razorwing can move on 6" and still fire. It is small but before some IG player howls about the inequity, the valkrie/vendetta also has an AV of 12 versus 10. Too bad you have to move more than 6" and the result is you cannot enter from reserves and unload all 3 of your lascannons.

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Think this should clear up the issue, taken from page 6 of version 1.4 FAQ for the rulebook



Oops my bad, read this wrong and posted before reading it through.

That doesn't clear up anything, as "in/on terrain" has nothing to do with being on the board.

I believe I read somewhere that GW have a section of their site that says "GW have the autority to press charges on any who alter the models without direct authorisation", or something. Basically, if you build the Land Raider differently than the instruction manuel syas, GW can press charges, and this includes adding a Hunter Killer from an Ironclad Dread because it is cooler.

I would love to see them try that. They would get annihilated in court. Once you purchase something, you can do whatever you want to it.

You can sell it.
You can modify it.
Hell, you can even set it on fire.

Once you pay for it. It is yours. There is no legal way that they can tell you what you can or cannot do to your own property.

This would only apply to codices and other media, in regards to creating duplicates and distributing them for personal gain.

The section of the site you are referring to specifically refers to the site, not the product.

"All materials on this site, including but not limited to images, artwork, text, audio clips, and video clips, are, unless otherwise stated, owned and controlled by GW and may not be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted or distributed in any way. Modification of the materials or unauthorized use of the materials for any purpose is a violation of our legal rights. The unauthorized posting of any of our intellectual property, including any images of our products or other artwork on any other website, including, but not limited eBay, Amazon or Craigslist is strictly prohibited."

"4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction."

Some will say that posting that specific text violates GW's legal rights. They are incorrect, as it is legal material, and therefore usable in and out of context.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=community&pIndex=12&aId=9300010&start=13&multiPageMode=true

In case there are any doubts.

Thanks.

First I think that. The whole "wings as decorative" debate was really just for INFANTRY with wings etc, so as not to punish highly flamboyant or decorative modeling jobs. Somehow that. Got transferred to vehicles.

Second.... The. FAQ pretty clearly describes the idea of decorative. Spikey bits, antennas, gun barrels, ( although the housing is still valid target IMHO), crew etc, flags and so on. ANYTHING else is hull. So your valk tail IS HULL since its -not- an antennae or something simaler.

Third, since in numerous entries GW mentions the "edge of the board is the edge of the world" and "if ANY PART" of the model is off the table it's destroyed, well there you go.

Forth, the base thing is only for assault. Since the height of the model would make it impossible for all but c'tan and other tall MC to reach its hull, it was made ok to assault the base in place of reaching the hull in assault. Measuring movement, shooting to and from, etc is all done the same as normal vehicles. To and from its hull, and gun barrels. (when moving shooting at or shooting with respectively)

Fifth, as mentioned easy solutions.
- deploy the darn thing.
- move it on at cruising speed and fire 1 weapon + defensives.
- move it on faster and claim your obscured flat out save.
- move on at combat speed and risk not getting on th table and being called on it thus having your toy airplane removed from the game.
- deep strike it if able.

Every. Other model and vehicle in every other army follows those rules. Monoliths, dark eldar raiders (with sails), land raiders, wave serpents, and so on. Everyone has models that provide a slight disadvantage or advantage in differing situations. A good general identifies this, and compensates, without allowing it to affect his/her mood or battle plan.

Finally.... A mentioned I'm casting vote for if it's not fully on the table it's done. the rules support that argument. It does not support the "m y tailfin structure is decorative so can overhang" all we have is misinterpreted assault rules, and hearsay from a store rep.

PS: changing a models base etc would seem to be conversion work to me, and unless it's a blatant attempt at modeling for advantage, (such as trimming and reducing the length of tailfins on Valks so they have less then 6" length...) I dot have a problem. Just keep in mind you use TLOS either way. Bt I have seen plenty. Of cool valk base conversions that are clearly done as part of a fantastic modeling job, and it may raise or lower it's height a bit. But whatever. Modeling for advantage is usually pretty obvious. Especially when the perpetrator goes "oh this model is taller/shorter/bigger/smaller etc) so it CAN/CANT do/be affected by "X"


Sorry for the wall of text.

Your Fourth point is wrong DarthSpader the base counts as to whether the vehicle is in difficult terrain and for passenger disembarkation/embarkation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was trying to wrack my brain as to where Id seen a FAQ that went against the GW FAQ and finally remembered. Below is the Throne of Skulls FAQ in full, maybe a reason why some people play it 6" on is OK.

"The majority of movement related distances should be resolved using the oval base supplied with the model. Moving a Valkyrie 6" onto a table from reserves allows the base to be completely on the board while having the tail section extend past the table edge by a few inches. This means these vehicles can come on from reserves and fire all their weapons provided they did not move more than 6". This is an exception to the rule that states that a model that cannot completely move onto the table counts as destroyed, and this exception is made to take into consideration the protruding wings and tail sections of the models in question.

Note that the base is also used in relation to enemy models, and as long as the Valkyrie, Vendetta or Storm Raven's base is not within 1" of enemy models at the end of its movement, it is perfectly legal to have enemy or friendly models, terrain, etc. underneath the wing, tail or nose of the vehicle.

For the purposes of contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Storm Raven, also measure to and from the model's base.

However, when determining LOS to, shooting at, or assaulting a Valkyrie, Vendetta or Storm Raven, you should use the model itself, ignoring any vertical height the flying stand provides. This means melta guns can gain their added dice for armor penetration if within 6" horizontally of the model. The same holds true for template weapons. If in doubt, take the model from its flying stand and place it on the table to resolve such disputes."

So all I need to do for my Vendetta conversion is significantly cut back the tail in order to be able to move on 6" and fire all my lascannons?

Bit of a pain, but sure.