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Hey I just wanted some thoughts, I see in your elites section you have scorpions and banshees but not harlequins?? Is that because they can't have a dedicated transport? I only ask because I'm playing mechdar but I'm not a big fan of scorpions or banshees but harlequins look pretty cool. I'm trying to make a competitive list and prolly could just fill out my elites with firedragons but being said I would like some variety haha! What are your thoughts on harlequins??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey I just wanted some thoughts, I see in your elites section you have scorpions and banshees but not harlequins?? Is that because they can't have a dedicated transport? I only ask because I'm playing mechdar but I'm not a big fan of scorpions or banshees but harlequins look pretty cool. I'm trying to make a competitive list and prolly could just fill out my elites with firedragons but being said I would like some variety haha! What are your thoughts on harlequins??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey I just wanted some thoughts, I see in your elites section you have scorpions and banshees but not harlequins?? Is that because they can't have a dedicated transport? I only ask because I'm playing mechdar but I'm not a big fan of scorpions or banshees but harlequins look pretty cool. I'm trying to make a competitive list and prolly could just fill out my elites with firedragons but being said I would like some variety haha! What are your thoughts on harlequins??

HJ Illagen wrote:Hey I just wanted some thoughts, I see in your elites section you have scorpions and banshees but not harlequins?? Is that because they can't have a dedicated transport? I only ask because I'm playing mechdar but I'm not a big fan of scorpions or banshees but harlequins look pretty cool. I'm trying to make a competitive list and prolly could just fill out my elites with firedragons but being said I would like some variety haha! What are your thoughts on harlequins??

I might be able to answer this one
If you're looking for competitive elite choices, you already found them. Five fire dragons in a wave serpent is the most competitive choice we have in the codex, let alone just the elite slot. It's our best (and most cost effective) way to deal with AV12 and higher.

Now, as for the overall effectiveness of Harlequins, they are pretty useful, though, best suited in footdar lists. Thanks to the Shadowseer, a few tactics open up to footdar. The first of these is the obvious that the Harlequins are hard to target in terms of enemy shooting. The second, is that despite their shielding, they still provide cover to units (including your wraith guard). Third, is that the Shadowseer is a psyker, so will protect both your wraith guard and wraith lords from wraith sight. Fourth, and my personal favorite, they make a great hiding place for Eldrad. While he will limit their use of Fleet, your enemy can't easily target your unit to try and eliminate the powerful psyker, allowing him to easily buff the Avatar and other models. Also, while attached to the Harlequins, he increases their survivability should they wiff their attack rolls, thanks to fortune (And the temptation your opponent will have of throwing some attacks at Eldrad's re-rollable 3++ save).

I think that just about covers it.

Oh I completely agree about harlies being in a footdar list and that in mech it should be straight out FD, BUT in saying that footdar hold no appeal for me but I also love harlies and just wanted to know IF they could function in a mech list despite not being mech by any imagination stretch...
However if the answer is a straight out "NO!" then that's fine I just need to be told no lol.
Thanks for your thoughts

You could probably get away with putting a squad of harlies in a falcon so they keep pace if your dead set on putting them in a mech list

First off, great guide! I'm currently in the middle of starting up a Mechdar-list of my own, and so found the guide very useful. (I'd hate to buy stuff i wouldn't need!)

One thing left me wondering, though: As i've been playing Nidz for quite some time, i haven't been paying too much attention towards the vehicle-rules (except the MC = 2d6+str-part ). But as i read your guide, one part stroke me, and made me wonder, if a skimmer was able to ram through blocking terrain. I then started a thread on the topic (can be found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409379.page), but another thing came to my attention!

Under the "Small Point Games", it says:

Akaean wrote:
At first glance it seems hopeless. You've got 8 cannons, but none of them are capable of scratching the paint of a Land Raider! Never fear. You still actually have the tools to deal with and defeat that list. Remember that you can generate up to 2 s10 hits from rams, and the destruction of that Raider = the destruction of your opponent's list. Of course you still have only about a 20% chance of destroying the Land Raider, but you can do it. And remember your energy field will reduce the returning ram to s8, so the impact may not even destroy your Wave Serpent- and you'll have a 4+ cover save from flat out, so you can potentially smash into the land raider, pull back and smash into it again. Just make sure you pile your troops out and sit them on an objective and cover when you use your Wave Serpents as battering rams. You can also get a free Kill point by slaughtering his not mounted scout squad with War Walker fire.

As you describe it, we (the Eldar players) are able to bust these LR's by ramming them. But as i was clearing out the other quesion (in the linked thread), some made it clear, that many of these rules only applies to ranged attacks. Reading up on the RAW's, the "Ramming"-rules actually indicates the Ramming itself, not as a ranged attack, but rather a "Special type of tank shock".
- So basically, what i'm asking here, is whether or not the Ramming counts towards the two ranged-attack rules, as you describe (Energy Field + Flat-out save)?

The Eldar Codex entry for energy field stipulates that it is only against ranged attacks (p45). However, as clear as this is, I do believe that the wording is a relic of an old rulebook before ramming existed. Why? Because the last line is "Attacks in close combat, or from the rear, are unaffected by the energy field rule." Why is that important? Because it specifically excludes melee attacks and rear attacks, of which a ram is neither. Therefore:

The rule says it only affects ranged attacks, which excludes rams. It then goes on to clarify by specifically excluding melee and rear attacks, which would therefore mean it affects Rams.

If I were in a referee/TO position, I would rule that rams are unaffected by energy fields as the rule specifically says it works on ranged attacks. However, I would clarify with your opponent (and any ref/TO present) prior to the game if it looks like it could come up, such as in the situation presented in the previous posts' quote. I would also expect this to be FAQ'd by GW soon, since it is a point of contention for sure. They may even errata it to apply to rams - the 'feel' of the energy field implies it just may affect it if they were real.

As for the flat-out, I think he may be implying that you will have a 4++ save against the LR's return fire, prior to backing up and ramming again, which is true. Getting a cover save from ramming a vehicle is not an argument you want to pitch to your opponent or a ref/TO, you'll just get laughed at.

I meant against return fire with regards to the flat out save.

As for the energy field rule I agree with TehScat that the rule as Intended would apply to all attacks against front armor, but RaW it would not come into play against the ram as it is not a shooting attack. I also need to read my energy field rule a bit closer

Sorry for any confusion there.

@TehScat
Thanks for clearing that out!

@Akaean
Hey, man, you've provided us with a perfectly fine guide here. A mistake or two - be it ramming or spelling - doesn't mean THAT much. Your guide is the BOMB!

Not sure how I didn't stumble upon this sooner....

So, I can't say I read the entire thing about 70%, but everything I read I completely agree with. The pics are a little rought, but that is a minor complaint.

Akaean's tactica gets the BlueDagger seal of approval.

@HJ Illagen - Harlies, outside of foot, aren't a very viable choice. Their T3 and 5++ save just makes them too much of a glass cannon and for their point cost that isn't acceptable. However if you want to run them in a Mech list take a 5 Man DA squad w/ Wave Serpent, 10 man Harlie squad, and a Falcon. At deployment place the DA in the falcon and all of the harlies within 2" of the rear of the DA's serpents. Turn 1 pile the Harlies in the Serpent and the only real side effect you have is no turn 1 flat out.

I'd aso add that in a footdar list that there is an alternative DA load out. 10 DA's cost 120pts. This provides your list with a fair amount of mobile firepower at up to 24" range (if you take their movement into consideration). I swear by this unit and it always serves me well.

another question, i was playing a game recently and my opponent said i couldn't start my DA inside my falcon because it wasn't a dedicated transport. at the end of the day doesn't matter 'cause i'll just deploy them right next to it and walk them in but can anyone clarify that? it seemed from the guide that you could....

You can deploy them in it at the start see page... 66 and page 67.

The only limitations on what you can deploy in a vehicle at the start of the game are:

For a transport purchased on it's own (such as a falcon or land raider), anything can deploy in it but the squad size cannot exceed the transport capacity of the vehicle.

If it is a Dedicated Transport then only the unit it is selected with may be deployed in it

After deployment then anything can embark / disembark from any vehicle so long as it

Anything on the Rangers/Pathfinders? I can't quite graps their usefiullness in either lists. And i wouldn't say i'm too tempted, looking at them on paper.
- Perhaps as a pinning-unit. But as it both requires wounds + failed Ld-test, i doubt it's a reliable option.

I don't like pathfinders one bit. They are just too expensive, too slow, and don't do enough damage.

24 points for a single shot, that needs a 3+ to hit and a 4+ to wound is just not enough. Sure its a pretty decent single shot, and they ignore terrain and have super stealth. BUT. that doesn't make them work. Their low speed means they get caught by fast assault units, or fast flamers, and they don't have any real protection except for that 2+ cover save.

Guardian Jetbikes. These are what I run instead and I have never wished they were pathfinders. 24 inch turbo boost makes them great for grabbing objectives, and jump shoot jump lets them dip and dodge away from enemy attacks. The 3+ armor save also helps them take light fire, and it protects them from all but the strongest templates.

If you want a cheap squad to claim objectives Guardian Jetbikes are the way to go. Better shooting, better speed.

Thats my thought exactly!

Speaking of which, do you run your GJBs in larger squads by any chance, or do you stick with the standard 4 GJB-lock setup?
And one more thing - Whats the thinking behind choosing between Embolden or Destructor for the 'lock?
- Personally, i think it's a matter of the purpose you give them. If you ran an Autarch-JB in the list, i'd most likely take the Destructor. But as small squads, meant for T-boosting to claim objectives, i'd pick embolden.

I'm also pondering about WS upgrades. I'm collecting my first shipment sometime tomorrow (4 WS + 4 GJBs), and have been thinking about upgrades for these.

My thought on the matter is that Stones are less of a priority on WS'es, that uses the DAVU, rather than as a transport. Likewise, i'm pondering about weapons for these DAVU-WSes, and i feel abit stuck between EML or SL. I'm mostly leaning towards the SL-upgrade. It's cheaper, and with the bs3, i think it's an overall better deal.

Anything that's meant for transportation purposes needs the stones upgrade. The FD WSes, i was thinking, can be given Stones + TLS-cannon, as it needs to get in close anyways. OTOH, i do like the SLs.

Well, basically, i'm just trying to wrap my mind around the Eldars, as i haven't had a game with them just yet. So it's all on paper for me still. But my philosophy is to take heavy advantage of their speed, and utilize range.
- A great concern, however (still on the paper here), is long-range AV units, such as LFs and similar. How do you properly deal with these guys? Most often, you're seeing these guys heavily supported by the rest of the army. Can't quite think further than blasting them to smithereens with the Prisms and spinner.


Oh, well, another wall of text. Sorry about that!

By the way, i failed to mention, Akaean - i got your thread here listed in the "40k Tactics Discussion Archive". I hope thats fine!

I always stick with 4 man GJB squads. I've toyed around with 7 man squads but ultimately I prefer them as objective snaggers primarily and general combat units second, not the other way around.

The same goes into my thinking on Powers. I've been known to take both Destructor and Embolden but the main catalyst for me is the size of the game. I find in smaller games: 500-750, I prefer the extra fire power offered by destructor, but as games get bigger a single extra heavy flamer becomes less important and the leadership bonus provided by Embolden becomes my go to choice.

For the reasons stated in the OP, scatter lasers are your best heavy weapon overall, HOWEVER keep in mind that with the advent of GKs, its very important to be able to handle av12 (psyfleman dreads) because they can shoot down an air force in very short order- and with fortitude you can't rely on shaking them down even with warding.

I also don't like spirit stones on my tanks. But its pretty hotly contested among eldar players.

As for long fangs, and others, this is another reason why scatter lasers are so great. Hose them down, support from the prisms and night spinners. Hide from line of sight from 1 or 2, and blast the squad(s) that can see you. I do hope you are playing with lots of LOS blocking terrain . As for Ravagers, remember that you cannot hide from them, but aslo a scatter laser wave serpent is as deadly to a Ravager as it is vice versa. So try to shoot first, and remember hes only got 3.

Added a quote from Flavius from this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414094.page

His post is pretty amazing, and I went wow when I read it, so I had to add it to my tactica!

Thanks everybody for getting this added to the tactics discussion archive, it means a lot to me that players are finding this information helpful.

Best of luck stomping out the vile mon-keigh!

@ Akaean
Wow indeed!
- That's just pure genius! I'd sooo love to see the look on the face of a GK player whose 500+ pts unit was just forced to run off the board

Another thing Flavious mentions, that i think are worth quoting, Aka', is this:

Flavious wrote:Right, if you have passengers and you want to move over 12", then disembark the turn before you make your run. Otherwise, if you immobilize in your turn, then the passengers die.

A vehicle can still shoot in a turn when it tank shocks as long as it didn't move too far. So you can make a 12" tank shock, shoot one non-defensive weapon, and disembark fire dragons who can then shoot, all in the same turn. Run your serpents in a spearhead pattern, and the fire dragons can't be countercharged.

Even a big unit of paladins multi-charging a unit of wave serpents that has moved over 6" (thus hitting on 6's) is not going to score a lot of kills. Some shaken/stunned, and maybe one tank down from the daemonhammer guy. Then you shock him again the following turn. Infantry models can't be locked in HtH with vehicles--you can still shoot them (or tank shock them) again in your own turn.

I have to modify what I said earlier about ramming--wave serpents are good, but a grav tank with a holofield is better because you get your holofield against the damage result on your tank. So falcons, or prisms with holofields can kill psyflemen with ramming more surely than any gun in the Eldar arsenal other than fire dragons.

You know - just to put things into perspective..?

maybe you saw my post in a nother article, but ignore it. Saim han is nice. Though will try out the Wraith army 1499 points. But thats...TODAY afternoon, ow hell.
Nice job on the tacs, watched all the vids. I AM interested in trying out Saim-Hann

Small revival - it's worth keeping this where people can see it regardless - and a small question.

You (Akaean) posted a while ago in one of my Eldar threads and I only just noticed the post (4 i are dunce) whilst scanning through my thread history to find an old list.

It was for a 600pt tournament where I could only have 1-2 HQ, 0-1 Elites, 2-6 Troops, and 0-1 FA or HS. You reccommended a list, and whilst I don't particularly like some of the things in it (I might use Storm Guardians if they didn't cost £20.50 for mono-pose models in packs of 8, when you need at least 10 for a bare minimum squad), I do have a small question about the GJB squad.

The current tournament looks to have SW ruling, with fewer infantry Guard, more Marines and Orks, and more armour. I've rethough my old list, and come up with this:

HQ:
Farseer w/ Guide, RoWa, Spear

Elites:
5 Fragons
WS w/ TL Shuricannon

Troops:
5 DA
WS w/ TL Shuricannon, Underslung Cannon (or Spirit Stones)
3 GJBs w/ 1x Shuricannon

Heavy Support:
2x War Walkers w/ 4x Shuricannons

Total - 599pts

The issue is that I can't afford a Destructorlock with a Spear (Or an Emboldenlock) for the GJBs unless I drop the walkers, but then i'm left with 23pts (33pts if I drop the upgrade on the DA serpent) if I get the Destructorlock, or 28pts (38pts) if I get the Emboldenlock, and I can't really do much with that.

I can upgrade the DA serpent to Scatter Lasers (might as well drop the extra upgrade, or keep them as spirit stones, at that point), but then I have points I can do even less with, and only 2 less shots but with 12" more range to show for it.

I could drop the Fragons, but that leaves me with a single vehicle that can reliably threaten AV12+, which means that Necron vehicles or other AV12 can sleep safely if all anti-tank is focussed against it.

The GJBs as they are give me the only way to fit the War Walkers in, and my reason for the Walkers is simply throwing shots around.

I could always drop the Fragon's serpent, grab the Warlock and a third Walker, or upgrade the two walkers to scatter lasers (probably preferable due to range), but can I ensure that they Fragons will survive without a transport? Can they actually reach an enemy target? They could shuffle up behind my Avenger serpent, but I know at least one Tyranid opponent regularly brings Hive Guard, which would put an end to them easily before they get close enough to the big gribbly.

So essentially, i've got 3 options if I absolutely need the Warlock:

HQ:
Farseer w/ Guide, RoWa, Spear

Elites:
5 Fragons
WS w/ TL Shuricannon

Troops:
5 DA
WS w/ TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones
3 GJBs w/ 1x Shuricannon + 1x Warlock w/ Destructor/Embolden, Spear

592

HQ:
Farseer w/ Guide, RoWa, Spear

Troops:
5 DA
WS w/ TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones
3 GJBs w/ 1x Shuricannon + 1x Warlock w/ Destructor/Embolden, Spear

Heavy Support:
3x War Walkers w/ 6x Scatter Lasers

592

HQ:
Farseer w/ Guide, RoWa, Spear

Elites:
5 Fragons

Troops:
5 DA
WS w/ TL Shuricannon, Underslung Cannon (or Spirit Stones)
3 GJBs w/ 1x Shuricannon + 1x Warlock w/ Destructor/Embolden, Spear

Heavy Support:
2x War Walkers w/ 4x Scatter Lasers

Total - 597pts

Out of those, i'm leaning heavily towards the third, but I still dislike the lack of Fragon transport. I'm not sure, if it came to it, that I could spare the extra turn or so needed for my Avengers to hop out, and Fragons hop in, move up 12" and then probably over 12", then finally out, even in a 600pt game.

So now, could you or anyone else help my in my decision? I've got the lists of a few people i'm likely to face again, as well as that of a Necron Scarab list (10 scarabs, making the War Walkers all the more valuable) if you need them. I'm not looking to tailor, just to take into account.

Yeah the last list is my preference as well. For the Dragon transport, just give it to them and reserve the Avengers to keep them safe. If the transport manages to survive dropping off the Dragons then you can just zoom back across the board and pick them up, if not you can still run on to an objective in your half of the table and hide in cover. The Jetbikes let you reach distant objectives anyway.

I would almost suggest just dropping the Fire Dragons. However, on the other hand they help a great deal with things like quantum shielding, and you know for a fact that you need to prepare for necrons.

The first list gives you the most shuriken cannons of any of the variation, and those are going to be your bread and butter for shooting the crap out of people in low point games.

2 Wave Serpents and 2 War Walkers is a lot of shooting, and you have everything safe and mechanized.

Jetbike Warlocks are great, and they are versatile, but they won't make or break your list. I'd say you don't NEED him.

Go with fiting as many tanks and as many war walkers as you can onto the field.

Might try both the initial warlock-less list and the dual Scatterwalker list before making the decision. The extra skimmer hull is nice, but the range of the scatter lasers would increase the margin for error.

The tournament is played on 4'x4' boards, so Shuriwalkers leave 18" of the board they can't touch, whereas Scatterwalkers only leave 6", meaning that I can get the wrong side for outflanking and still be in range against most things, whereas the shuriwalkers might have to spend a turn or two moving up, and if they come in from the board edge then Scatterwalkers can start shooting almost immediately against most targets.

It's a toss-up really; an extra skimmer hull vs 12" greater range. Considering bolters pose a threat to WWs, however slight, i'm shifting slightly towards the extra range; the spear on the warlock could also help towards anti-tank during Fragon downtime, as well as assaulting any quantum shielded Necron vehicles as a last-resort, but at the same time I want my Fragons to have guaranteed mobility.

Playtesting should give me an idea as to which is more valuable; the range on the scatters or the mobility and target stauration the extra serpent gives.

I would just like to say thankyou, I;m thinking of starting Eldar and this has poushed me to do it. They will be awesome now. I;m going foot eldar and the pictures helped heaps. Thanks again.

You might want to add something about how warlocks can be used in a 3 man squad in a serpent.

I've been using one squad like such in addition to my 3 dragon squads to help take down armor, and met with good success. For 75 points, you have 9 STR 9 hits you can distribute among the rear armor of tanks (usually AV 10). It also lets you bring another serpent, which is 7 more STR 6 shots.

Well done akaean. that is a great compilation of tips for the Eldar. This is indispensible if youre just starting to collect and play eldar.

Over the years i`ve played eldar i have noticed it has come to really being between mechdar and footdar lists. I get why people go down this route but for me it comes with its own restrictions.

Do you agree with me that the truly good eldar lists are a combination of parts of both lists? Or do you think that it has to be one way or the other?

I don't have my codex to hand, but i'm pretty sure SS are fleet and only the WS Exarch can take Powerblades and can't confer the power attacks to his squad.

I like your advice about the tactics and building from basics though, FD, DA, WW and WS are pretty much the most competitive part of Eldar builds.

A lot of Eldar units are point sinks though the Seer Councils and Falcons being the 2 most annoying.

SS are not Fleet, and the 10 PW attacks mentioned are not the Exarch and his squad (I don't think), they are the Exarch and the Autarch.

As for Seer Councils and Falcons being point-sinks, I disagree.

Jetcouncils, although less effective with the advent of more resilient Deathstars and such, can still be very effective, and a Falcon with an EML and Holofields, holding a unit of 5 avengers (Guideseer optional) and sitting on an objective makes a very difficult to shift unit, as well as being able to lend 3 S8 shots per shooting phase.

If your Councils and Falcons are point sinks, it's likely that you've kitted them out badly or aren't using them effectively; your HS shouldn't be pure Falcons, for example, and neither should you buy a Seer Council just because you can, always have a use in mind.

Yeah I see now the SS aren't fleet which strikes me as really odd, apparantly it's because they have heavier armour!

I find cost effectively WS win every time, the falcon ends up being too many points especially with a weapon skill of 3.

I agree that a Seer Council is much more effective on bikes though.

So you said that Night Spinners have Large Blasts, but their sheet says "Blast". Am I missing something? Thanks again for a great post though