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Kroothawk wrote:
Sorry, the calculation is correct if you include the suggested divident and the total dividends paid in the financial year.

No, it is not correct because the 18p dividend is paid (assuming it's paid) during NEXT (currently ongoing) financial year. You are taking 1.5 years dividends and subtracting them from 1 years profits - such calculation is meaningless. As can be seen from the report, their cash situation actually improved despite paying out 45p dividends during the financial year, and the company has almost no debt. So although it is always a valid question whether paying dividend is better than investing it back to company (by the way, GW, like many other companies, has re-investment scheme for the dividend and likely at least some shareholders use it), it does not seem that shareholders are squeezing the company dry.

I get the feelimg that follicle splicing is taking place.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I get the feelimg that follicle splicing is taking place.

Well, it's certainly needed. Remember we are always trying to prove that a company making a profit is going down in flames at any moment.

I've enjoyed reading this so far. I don't have the specific data for this next statement, hoping one of you that are "in the know" can either verify or debunk this. I was at my FLGS about a month or so before Finecast was released, and in the "love / hate" conversion he stated that in 2009 or 2010 (I'm not sure which) profits were up for GW but the statistics for actual sales of product were down and the price increases were to fill the gap and maintain the illusion of "growth".

Can anyone back that up or shoot it down?

DIDM wrote:yea, you would think that a company that mainly caters to "nerds" would offer a cheaper way to get their material. In the age of $30 all in one printers and the internet in your pocket, you'd think they would embrace it, instead they, well, miss out. There are plenty of sites with EVERYTHING in PDF, just not GW. The companies today that embrace the internet, and realize they need a fresh new look to their whole company are trying to show others what to do, but some are stuck in dead practices.

Steve Jackson Games does this with several of its products but also encourages people to head to their FLGS.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Entirely agree, licensing out that IP does seem to be working well (despite WAR being a colossal flop) as I recall picking up a copy of PC Gamer and about half the magazine was tailored to Games Workshop IP, with Dawn of War 2, Space Marine, WAR, the forthcoming 40k mmo etc etc. Keeping out of the business and hiring out the IP is going to give you a small amount of money with little risk... No big bucks though. Sensible and conservative.

And Firewarrior. No one remembers Firewarrior.

The Dawn of War games were successful. The Space Marine game that was just recently released has sold more than 360,000 copies across the PS3, Xbox 360, and the PC, WAR, I have no idea, but the MMO... if they do it right (and honestly, they would need to cut out a bit of the usual GRIMDARK of the WH40K universe to attract a decent audience that has both the time and money to play the game, assuming it's a subscription-based model and not Free-to-play) they could make bank on this. If they do it wrong, it could be a multi-million dollar hole for the companies involved. MMO's aren't easy to make and require a steady audience. The only MMO that is set to stand against WoW is SW:The Old Republic, and that cost over $300 million to make.

The list the fellow made isn't really a great list, and most of the ideas aren't really pausible or smart. The Army Builder app, .pdf codices (there's already the rulebook, why not codices?), heck, app/mobile device/tablet support would be fantastic.

The 3-d printing isn't plausible for the next several years at least. Once it is, though, producing models will be easier than ever. There was a video I watched where a guy scanned a wrench into the printer, and the printer printed a working wrench that was actually structurally sound. Fantastic concept, but I don't know how it would handle the detail some GW models can get. The printer could also print 3d moving objects as well. Food for thought.

IMO, making a MMORPG at the moment is destined to fail. I've been interested in GW far longer than I have been in Warcraft. But WoW got the market first, got the enormous critical mass, and is now rolling with it. Playing a MMORPG is a time-intensive commitment. Playing one MMORPG both reduced the likelihood that I would play any other game, and it reduced my spending on miniatures.

And then I went to rehab, was cured of my WoW addiction and am now back on plastic crack.



I think the weirdest thing was GW's statement which basically said "We can't think of anything better to do with this money than give it away. Never mind that we lost sales revenue slightly and volume majorly."

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:I've enjoyed reading this so far. I don't have the specific data for this next statement, hoping one of you that are "in the know" can either verify or debunk this. I was at my FLGS about a month or so before Finecast was released, and in the "love / hate" conversion he stated that in 2009 or 2010 (I'm not sure which) profits were up for GW but the statistics for actual sales of product were down and the price increases were to fill the gap and maintain the illusion of "growth".

Can anyone back that up or shoot it down?

That depends on what "Growth" you are talking about. Growth of Profit, Growth of Units Sold, Growth of Gamers. Most companies look at either Total Sales or Bottom Line numbers when talking Growth. If it is total sales, then they might not care if it is from increased pricces or increased units sold. In fact from a bottom line standpoint Growth from increased Prices is better as it means you made more money on the same or less product, there by lowering your cost.

I own stock and am quite happy with GW as a business. As a customer, I wish they would update the various armies more frequently but meh. I'll hang onto my stock because the share prices are stable to rising (I've earned quite a bit over the years from dividends and glad to see them come back).

All the armchair economists yelling doom and gloom are silly. Why would a company earning a profit that sells its IP so well and even leverages it into very lucrative licensing agreements suddenly implode? No, your nerd rage will not cause a disturbance in the force and make GW go down in flames, sorry.

The thing that cracks me up is that it's the same people that complain the most about GW's business practices that run out and snap up anything new they produce. LoL thanks for puting money into my pockets.

Although, thinking about it. I'm not really earning anything because I just spend the dividends on more product.... Hey, my hobby is paying for itself!

Not me pal
Reading such remarks makes it more imperative not to encourage the smug condescention that seems to prevail and continue the dolorous malaise at GW management level.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Not me pal
Reading such remarks makes it more imperative not to encourage the smug condescention that seems to prevail and continue the dolorous malaise at GW management level.

LoL. While I'm not the champion of GW, I don't think they're falling apart. That was my point; no holier than thou intended.

Sorry, I misunderstood
You are correct imho GW won't be collapsing anytime soon, all things being equal.
Not convinced they are in the best of health but neither are they quite ready for the hospice just yet.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry, I misunderstood
You are correct imho GW won't be collapsing anytime soon, all things being equal.
Not convinced they are in the best of health but neither are they quite ready for the hospice just yet.

Believe me, if the financials ever dip, I'll sell my stock, post haste. Even as an investor I shake my head at some of the things they do as a business but I only see part of the picture and don't have the required background to really analyze what's going on. I know they make money and they reward me for owning stock in their company, that's good enough for me as long as they remain healthy. On their end, they want to remain healthy so that they will continue to benefit from investment by people and organizations.

I don't think GW will go the route of TSR where they lose 50% of their target audience over night. I mean, people are addicted to their plastic crack so they'll keep buying.

DIDM wrote:
yea, you would think that a company that mainly caters to "nerds" would offer a cheaper way to get their material. In the age of $30 all in one printers and the internet in your pocket, you'd think they would embrace it, instead they, well, miss out. There are plenty of sites with EVERYTHING in PDF, just not GW. The companies today that embrace the internet, and realize they need a fresh new look to their whole company are trying to show others what to do, but some are stuck in dead practices.

Yeah, like White Wolf. A company that used to be the hotest RPG around, and I could sell dozens of books a month. Now everything they put out is in PDF, and about half that makes it to print. When it does, I order 1 copy of the book, and maybe it sells in the next 6 months, maybe not. White Wolfs sales in stores ares so stagnant most retailers are trying to dump all of the stuff and make room for anything else. I can't remember the last time anyone told me they actually played WW games or was starting a group.

Putting everything in PDF's isn't necessarily the best idea, if you want any support at all from stores. The internet isn't the answer to everything.

mikhaila wrote:Putting everything in PDF's isn't necessarily the best idea, if you want any support at all from stores. The internet isn't the answer to everything.

TRUTH!

mikhaila wrote:
Yeah, like White Wolf. A company that used to be the hotest RPG around, and I could sell dozens of books a month. Now everything they put out is in PDF, and about half that makes it to print. When it does, I order 1 copy of the book, and maybe it sells in the next 6 months, maybe not. White Wolfs sales in stores ares so stagnant most retailers are trying to dump all of the stuff and make room for anything else. I can't remember the last time anyone told me they actually played WW games or was starting a group.

Putting everything in PDF's isn't necessarily the best idea, if you want any support at all from stores. The internet isn't the answer to everything.

Well that's just heresy...

Out of curiosity (and realizing the terrible risk of derailing the thread to offtopic land), what RPG books do sell these days? I'm kinda out of the loop about what's hot & trendy right now in the RPG world.

Part of the reason for the white wolf drop off is that they were bought out by the MMO company that prodeces EVE online (name escapes me atm).

They've spent the past several years prepping a giant reboot of the line to coincide with an MMO release.

White Wolf nosedived when they killed off their existing line RPGs and then /rebooted with the frankly tepid WoD range (requiem et al). Many people showed their disgust at being told their entire roleplay universe and the hundreds of dollars worth of books were worthless/outdated with anger and withdrawal of custom.


I have heard that the merger with the makers of EVE was followed by that company telling White Wolf to get back to The Masquerade as they wanted to have their mmo set in that (much richer) background.


As to GW and PDFs and comparison... RPGs are centred around booksales, GW gets it's money from the minis.

Putting everything in PDF's isn't necessarily the best idea, if you want any support at all from stores. The internet isn't the answer to everything.

I think as well that Corvus Belli has excelled in that area, combining use of new technology but at the same time keeping to the wargaming staples and so getting the best of both worlds.

All of the rules and expansion packs are freely downloadable from the internet. But, if you want the background material/stories/artwork etc. you have to buy the rulebook which is comparable in price to the GW ones. From my experience a pretty good percentage of players buy the rulebook, despite not technically having to. I think most players play a few games (using proxied models perhaps), enjoy it and then buy some minis and the book.

It helps of course that the game is so cheap to get into. If you are spending less than $100 on your army, then compared to what many wargamers will be used to (especially coming from GW, or even FoW or WM for that matter) you are perhaps more readily prepared to pay out some money on things that are not strictly necessary to play the game. The point being that players have the choice, and I for one have found that a very liberating experience. I think many players end up getting 2 or even 3 factions, again they don't have to but it explains how it is possible for a manufacturer to get money in other than by upping points counts and forcing the suggested way of playing to be $400-$500 of miniatures on the tabletop. Certainly, it's wonderful news for younger gamers or others who are on a tighter budget.

Secondly, online and downloadable interactive army builders. Infinity places less stock in the importance of an army list than other games, the challenge is in the way you play with them on the tabletop, but this is an absolutely wonderful tool. I think some of the other manufacturers would be foolish not to follow the example, again a good use of technology without hamstringing sales elsewhere (other than perhaps slightly impacting A4 paper and bic biro sales ) And if you don't know what a particular special rule or weapon in that army list does? You can click on it and jump instantly to the 'Infinity Wiki', and officially supported rules database that has every rule in the book in it. FAQs for each force are also listed there. It's easy to download all of this stuff to your smartphone which again is pretty handy.

I can't stress enough how important I think these things are. Though wargames have survived for many years without them, I think they represent a sterling job on behalf of the game developers. The official forums are abuzz with praise for them. I can see the problems inherent on going too far towards electronic media and playing aids, but as a fan of wargaming in all its forms I would love for other developers to follow suit and try and do something similar.

In that sense I think GW has some way still to go. If a relatively small Spanish company can innovate to this level (and it has more stuff in the pipeline) why can't the company that is supposedly the industry leader? It looks positively leaden by comparison, and if anything with the recent crackdown on use of the internet as an advertising medium and relying entirely on White Dwarf is actually going backwards.

Backfire wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Yeah, like White Wolf. A company that used to be the hotest RPG around, and I could sell dozens of books a month. Now everything they put out is in PDF, and about half that makes it to print. When it does, I order 1 copy of the book, and maybe it sells in the next 6 months, maybe not. White Wolfs sales in stores ares so stagnant most retailers are trying to dump all of the stuff and make room for anything else. I can't remember the last time anyone told me they actually played WW games or was starting a group.

Putting everything in PDF's isn't necessarily the best idea, if you want any support at all from stores. The internet isn't the answer to everything.

Well that's just heresy...

Out of curiosity (and realizing the terrible risk of derailing the thread to offtopic land), what RPG books do sell these days? I'm kinda out of the loop about what's hot & trendy right now in the RPG world.

Not a hell of a lot, compared to a decade ago, as far as actual book sales. Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder has replaced 3.5, and the various 40k games are doing good. Not a lot after that. Chthulu has about 6 different games, and probably the biggest horror seller still. Mutants and Masterminds the top superhero genre. Many liscensed properties are gone, such as Star Wars, Star Trek, WoW, Serenity. Gurps has a release once a year, Palladium is on life support. Lots of little games sell a little and have some following, but over all I think that WoW kicked the snot out of the last bits of folks were still around.

Paizo has an interesting approach to Pathfinder. Most stores push it and we sell the big HC and a couple of other books. Paizo sells PDFs of the majority of their titles, and discounts their own product on their website. Most retailers don't carry a lot past the basics because it never sells. It's a point of debate as to whether seller so much through their own website is keeping them afloat and healthy, or if it stifles the game and loses them support in stores. With many RPG publishers, and FLGS's, going under in the anemic economy, it's a hard question to answer. But I'm about to dump all my White Wolf stuff and move on. Having a couple hundred books take up wall space for a hundred bucks a year in sales is not healthy. I think the space will be going to Raging Heroes and Ziterdes, and be much better used.

mikhaila wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I get the feelimg that follicle splicing is taking place.

Well, it's certainly needed. Remember we are always trying to prove that a company making a profit is going down in flames at any moment.

Didn't you know that all those things GW has both done and haven't done means that the hobby is RUINED FOREVER.

Because robust 25+ year old million dollar franchises are as fragile as two bricks tied together with tissue.