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He makes a good point. Also I think it's corsairs that have hand bows which can always stand and shoot if I'm not mistaken.

cowpow16 wrote:Also I think it's corsairs that have hand bows which can always stand and shoot if I'm not mistaken.

That's right. Assassin with a Hand Bow or Rending Stars, too. Both have the Quick to Fire rule.

1) If he's taking 40 shots with 15 Repeater crossbows, he's cheating. He should only have 30.

2) If he only ever plays this list... just conceed every time he sets it up. Sure, he gets a cheap win. But it's a meaningless win, because he doesn't even get to play.

After three or four concessions, he'll start asking why no one wants to play him anymore. By then he will be ready to listen to your complaints with a more open mind.

3) If that fails... continue not playing him. It's that simple. If he doesn't want to let you guys have fun, there's no reason for you guys to let him have fun.

Vulcan wrote:1) If he's taking 40 shots with 15 Repeater crossbows, he's cheating. He should only have 30.

2) If he only ever plays this list... just conceed every time he sets it up. Sure, he gets a cheap win. But it's a meaningless win, because he doesn't even get to play.

After three or four concessions, he'll start asking why no one wants to play him anymore. By then he will be ready to listen to your complaints with a more open mind.

3) If that fails... continue not playing him. It's that simple. If he doesn't want to let you guys have fun, there's no reason for you guys to let him have fun.

4) Actually learn how to play the game and then beat it just fine. The list posted is not even slightly unbeatable.
Every army has strong units and it's your own fault if you field the weakest list and aren't in some kind of agreement to bring weak lists against each other.

Wow easy there not everyone understands the rules right away and math hammer only gets you so far.

He is new he dosnt know what is OP or under powered.

So lets not go around putting people down for being new and not knowing everything.

You will loose at first no one starts by being a winner but if you focus and understand what went wrong or what didnt go the way you wanted then you can change that.
Then you change it try it out and it works but something else dosnt then change that.

It sounds slow and sort of painful and it is but thats how you learn and get better.

Also learn what your units are weak against and try not to get them in combat with that.
Or if you do buff your stuff and debuff his.

Yeah, the OP asked for advice on how to beat this list, which we gave. Stuff like "learn to play the game" is not useful advice.

Also remember that these are new players (at least to WHFB). They have not had ages to acquire experience of what units are good against what and most likely have limited models with which to make up their army.

Keep that in mind when you respond please.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Yeah, the OP asked for advice on how to beat this list, which we gave. Stuff like "learn to play the game" is not useful advice.

Also remember that these are new players (at least to WHFB). They have not had ages to acquire experience of what units are good against what and most likely have limited models with which to make up their army.

Keep that in mind when you respond please.

I think He was just responding to this post, not the OP.

2) If he only ever plays this list... just conceed every time he sets it up. Sure, he gets a cheap win. But it's a meaningless win, because he doesn't even get to play.

Which is probably in the top 5 of worst advice that I've ever seen given.

The Blood God also gave his advice on the previous page, he was just pointing out how piss poor Vulcan's advice was is in rather abrasive way.


Anyway, The best thing you can do starting out (Like I've been doing myself while practicing) Is to read the opponents army book, and study it inside out. One of the first things I did when I got into this, was buy almost every army book, and have them spiral bound for easy reading.

As an aside, a Popular thing I've seen TK players do (Which is the army I have started now as well) Is take flaming Chariots. Those impact hits have a chance to outright kill the Hydra. and for every rank(which only requires 3) you get +1 Str to the impact hits.

Iago has had great success with a Tomb King in the chariot, and I suggest you check out his battle reports, and ask him for advice. He's a great guy, and really knows what he's doing.

This is not the sort of post we want on this site. Please be civil and helpful when responding to other users or don't post.

Reds8n

Thanks for the advice everyone - I will see what I can come up with to counter this guy. Like I said, it's just the fact that, at this point level, he has essentially everything and is bent on winning at all costs, and if it's a massacre, even better. In short, he's more concerned with his own fun (which only comes from slaughtering everyone) than anyone else having a good battle.

I'd rather have a close fight than massacring my opponent anyday, but that's just me.

I don't like how this has become a "numbers game" - The best defensive units aren't the ones with the best armor or saves - it's the largest number of troops. The best offensive units aren't the highest Strength or the highest WS - it's whatever has the most Attacks you can dish out. Just Attacks. Because with 30+ attacks and 30+ shots, you WILL roll 6's, and that's all you need. Obviously a little off-topic, but the justification that "it gets through a kink in the armor" or "a lucky shot" shouldn't justify 50 Skavenslaves with slings taking down a Khemrian Warsphinx.

Anyways.

I like the idea of throwing a Doomwheel in this point value with Skaven... And the Flaming Attacks on Chariots, which are obviously Core. Could be pretty terrifying for that Hydra, which is the biggest problem.

Obviously my friends and I have to get more used to these rules, and watch what he does to swing it in his favor.

I will post a rematch on here eventually.

TheBrandedOne wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone - I will see what I can come up with to counter this guy. Like I said, it's just the fact that, at this point level, he has essentially everything and is bent on winning at all costs, and if it's a massacre, even better. In short, he's more concerned with his own fun (which only comes from slaughtering everyone) than anyone else having a good battle.

I'd rather have a close fight than massacring my opponent anyday, but that's just me.

I don't like how this has become a "numbers game" - The best defensive units aren't the ones with the best armor or saves - it's the largest number of troops. The best offensive units aren't the highest Strength or the highest WS - it's whatever has the most Attacks you can dish out. Just Attacks. Because with 30+ attacks and 30+ shots, you WILL roll 6's, and that's all you need. Obviously a little off-topic, but the justification that "it gets through a kink in the armor" or "a lucky shot" shouldn't justify 50 Skavenslaves with slings taking down a Khemrian Warsphinx.

Anyways.

I like the idea of throwing a Doomwheel in this point value with Skaven... And the Flaming Attacks on Chariots, which are obviously Core. Could be pretty terrifying for that Hydra, which is the biggest problem.

Obviously my friends and I have to get more used to these rules, and watch what he does to swing it in his favor.

I will post a rematch on here eventually.

Except he doesn't "have everything" any more than the other armies.
Also, it doesn't look very smart to try to make sweeping generalizations about the state of balance when you're just a beginner.
You only have an incomplete and untested concept of the game.
And no, the math of the game is not just "get as many attacks as possible and get 6s occasionally"
A 2+ save against 30 attacks suffers only 5 wounds.
A 3+ save against only 15 attacks suffers the same 5 wounds.
Strength 4 instead of Strength 3 will not only reduce a 2+ save to a 3+ save (which highly increases damage) but it also makes it easier to wound.
Hordes of fodder also vaporize if charged in the flank, without steadfast they are so easy to damage that they give free combat resolution and get run down.

Ask for advice, good. Make "army is unbeatable because I'm new and lost to it" statements. Not good.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Except he doesn't "have everything" any more than the other armies.
Also, it doesn't look very smart to try to make sweeping generalizations about the state of balance when you're just a beginner.
You only have an incomplete and untested concept of the game.
And no, the math of the game is not just "get as many attacks as possible and get 6s occasionally"
A 2+ save against 30 attacks suffers only 5 wounds.
A 3+ save against only 15 attacks suffers the same 5 wounds.
Strength 4 instead of Strength 3 will not only reduce a 2+ save to a 3+ save (which highly increases damage) but it also makes it easier to wound.
Hordes of fodder also vaporize if charged in the flank, without steadfast they are so easy to damage that they give free combat resolution and get run down.

Ask for advice, good. Make "army is unbeatable because I'm new and lost to it" statements. Not good.

Alright, I will admit that I probably let my frustration get the best of me when I wrote that reply. I just can't stand seeing someone who only has fun dominating in a game do just that, despite the efforts of the other players. I'm not the only one in our little clique who's frustrated with losing to his comp.

But I mean, there are other people out there who will probably agree with a few of my points. I've done my research and I've played 40k for years. Different animal, yes. But I know one of the deadliest things you can have on your side is a lot of shots and a lot of re-rolls.

Maybe you're right, maybe some of the other races I haven't looked at also have a powerful yet affordable monster that can be fielded at 750 points, powerful and purely offensive magic, and the ability to move and fire 30+ shots a turn, including on a stand and shoot reaction. In our group, we only have Empire, VC, Skaven, HE, and an upcoming Dwarfs player. I haven't done much research into the other races and what they could bring to the table.

I know I'm a beginner to WHFB. But others who have read this have admitted, it's a daunting comp to face. Regardless, I will be more selective with what I write from now on.

I thought the question was 'how do I deal with TFG who isn't letting anyone else enjoy the game,' not 'how do I become TFG and try and beat him at his own game'...

I don't have any real advice for the TK player - that's not an army I'm familiar with. But the Empire and Skaven both have an easy answer to the hydra - cheap cannon. Max 'em out and go nuts on the hydra. It will never make it into combat again.

This just leaves you 30 T3 elves to deal with. S4, either in shooting or close combat, will make short work of them. Hit them in the flank and roll 'em up.

Vulcan wrote:I thought the question was 'how do I deal with TFG who isn't letting anyone else enjoy the game,' not 'how do I become TFG and try and beat him at his own game'...

Oh I definitely DO NOT want to become TFG. None of us do. I also refuse to kit to beat this guy. But I do want to help me/my friends stand a chance against his comp, so it's not just him slaughtering the whole time and laughing about it. That's no fun for anyone except the guy doing the laughing. Hence why I posted - and I got quite a few good ideas to try out.

The first thing I did was text our HE player to tell him to switch the Banner of Eternal Flame to his Swordmasters instead of the Sea Guard. He was quite pleased with this idea.

Obviously a little off-topic, but the justification that "it gets through a kink in the armor" or "a lucky shot" shouldn't justify 50 Skavenslaves with slings taking down a Khemrian Warsphinx.

Ah, the old David and Goliath scenario, it happens. I managed to get 12 poison hits (as in 6s to hit causing automatic wounds) out of 26 total attacks with Witch Elves once (they had a blessing of khaine giving them an extra attack each), killing an enemy mage who'd transformed into a Mountain Chimera (loads of wounds and attacks but no armour save) using Transformation of Khadon. That was a good day

Anyway, I don't think any of the advice we've given is TFG style stuff. A lot of it is just magic item choice (like Flaming banner) and checking up on the Dark Elf special rules so they don't get "accidentally" bent.

Perhaps try a Warriors of Chaos force. Khorne Hero with Fury of the Blood God, massive block of shield/halberd Warriors with the Blasted Standard, and a unit of lance Knights with a Flaming Banner to handle the hydra.

You might not win, but the sheer toughness of the force would be quite amusing (the Blasted Standard means that each crossbow bolt under ideal conditions has a 5% chance of doing anything).