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My friends and I recently expanded to WHFB after initially playing 40k. We started at low point values, and stayed there for now because we're all poor and we do enjoy small battles/old school Skirmish, etc.

Essentially, most of us play for fun, but the problem is, there's a player in our group who's only having fun if he's utterly dominating. And that's what he usually does. He runs Dark Elves. At this low point comp, they're near-unbeatable. He's annihilated both the Tomb Kings player, our High Elf player on multiple occasions, and everyone is getting sick of it.

You know the kind of guy I'm talking about. The one who would play the most OP class in an MMO just to win... Make unbalanced teams on a shooter because he has more fun completely dominating than having a good close match. Everyone knows someone like this.

I want to see him get taken down a couple notches.

Here's his comp:

Hero:
Sorceress with some Familiar that he can place 6" away and use that for her LoS. With Dark Magic, all the cast values are low and all of his spells are pure offense - more often than not he has 3 spells (including the Power of Darkness, that generates an extra D3+1 Power Dice), so he always has enough to get off his spells, even with us Dispelling. Considering, thanks to the errata ( ), he can throw more than 6 dice at anything he wants, so that Black Horror is coming at you whether you like it or not.

Core:
15 Corsairs with extra hand weapons and Banner that gives them Frenzy. So that's 3 Attacks each front rank, with re-rollable Hits because of Hatred (and Eternal Hatred vs. our poor HE player).

15 Crossbowmen in a gunline as his bunker unit, obviously the repeater crossbows are firing 40 shots per turn, so negative penalties for multiple shots don't even matter when they fire that much, with no penalty for moving, and S3 isn't high - except for the fact that they have armor piercing.

5 Black Guard, basically just because he likes the models. But they can't be underestimated - they re-roll pretty much everything, and are immune to psychology, so they have to be taken care of because even with such small numbers they can kill efficiently.

And of course, the icing on the cake - the absurdly underpriced Hydra. This damn thing has been the bane of everyone's existence. The beast itself has 7 Attacks per turn at S5, re-rollable (first round is usually all he needs) again because of Eternal Hatred, not to mention Breath Attack in CC and Thunderstomp. Its 4+ Armor and 4+ Regenerate save make it almost unkillable.

The HE player even tried throwing Purple Sun at the Hydra and he miraculously passed the Initiative roll (laughing with pride, I might add) before charging into CC next turn and slaughtering. I don't mean to turn this into a rant, but GW should Faq that Hydra into something that's not almost broken with such a low point cost for what it does.

Either way! Does anyone else have problems with this Hydra or is it just us? Should we up the points value so this guy isn't unbeatable anymore?

So I have a unit i refer to as the problem solver.
Mot warriors with halberds and flaming banner the hydra gets a what 6+ armor since all the attack are flaming and at str 5.

Last encounter with a hydra I got the charge they hit it hard and killed it and that was that.

What army do you play as?

This could help a lot knowing the army you have. HE is easy sword master with flaming banner they should kill it before it gets to attack back.

But ya what army do you play?

He doesn't seem very mobile. Use cavalry to get the drop on him. Or dwarf gunline him to death.

What army are you playing?

His army composition isn't that powerful. He doesn't even include Shades or Harpies and he is taking the Lore of Dark Magic (Lore of Shadow is a lot stronger).

As for the Hydra, every army can take the Banner of Eternal Flame and has units with high strength attacks. Combine these two and you have your anti War Hydra unit. Of the armies you mentioned, Tomb Kings should be able to deal with the Hydra through Casket of Souls or Screaming Skull Catapult. The best way for High Elves to deal with the Hydra is probably White Lions, Sword Masters or Dragon Princes with the Banner of Eternal Flame. Alternatively, the High Elves player could go for Lore of Shadow and Pit of Shades the Hydra. Having said that, the War Hydra is undercosted and you will probably need to invest more points to counter it than the Hydra costs the Dark Elves player. Luckily, the rest of his army composition isn't great.

What kind of points value are you guys playing at? I'm guessing 1000 points? Which army do you play, then we can give you more specific advice.

My first bit of advice has nothing to do with tactics; stop playing him. If this guy is that annoying stop wasting your time, its a game its supposed to be fun.
Airmaniac is right, every army has models with high str and they all have access to flaming attacks. Lore of fire is also good at killing hydras, and has the double benefit of being good at killing elves.
Lore of shadow is great if you have high elves, lower the DE WS, toughness, strength or use mind razor.
Corsairs suck at taking on high toughness or good saves, even with frenzy. Or things that are faster.
If all else fails one unit of Crossbows isnt all that great for the shoosting. Out-shooting this army is something even HE or TK could do.

I was looking at some of your other posts and it said something about skaven and HE if I am not mistaken.

If so HE as said above white lions sword masters and probs pheonix guard with a flaming banner will rip it appart.
That and your units will kill him in cc since you go first and are better than him.

If skaven try wlc hpa a teleporting dude with brass orb.
Magic.
His list really is not that strong but you are starters.

Also in your spare time read the rule book. I know this sounds lame but you learn stuff you didn't know or find something you missed.
Even just the special rules section is super helpful and can give you ideas about how to improve your army.

Thanks a lot for the input guys.

I'm tired of watching this thing destroy everyone, you know?

I'm the TK guy, also have some Skaven. Right now the list I'm preparing to take against him with Skaven is as follows:

Hero
Warlock Engineer
-Level 2
-Warp Energy Condenser
-Doomrocket

Core
30 Clanrats
-Shields
-Full Command

30 Clanrats
-Shields
-Full Command

30 Skavenslaves

6 Giant Rats
-1 Packmaster

6 Giant rats
-1 Packmaster

Rare:
Doomwheel

I'm planning on running the Giant Rats at him as cheap 30 pt. bait units. With Frenzy he has to charge with the Corsairs, setting him up for a counter-charge. The Doomwheel is for the Hydra. Hopefully it can hold up. The Slaves are for cannon fodder vs. the Crossbowmen, and the Clanrats are deployed 5 wide and 6 deep for Strength in Numbers and Steadfast.

Also, cowpow, you're 100% right about the rulebook. Last game where he massacred our High Elf player, he claimed both the Hydra and Black Guard were Unbreakable, therefore he said Combat Resolution against them was a waste of time. He might have been confusing Terror and Immune to Psychology with Unbreakable, but point being, we didn't question him till later when I was like... "Wait a minute..." If we had played it correctly my Tomb King Chariots would have made his Hydra flee on Turn 2 in a game we played. I will pass along the advice to our HE player, and I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

As for the Casket, I use it in my TK army - and all the other TK spells are so... Shall we say unintimidating? That all of my opponents just save their dispel for the Casket itself. 90% of the time it does nothing the entire game. "Oh, you can move an extra 6" and get back D3+1 archers? Yeah that's fine, go ahead. Extra shot on those same Archers? Yeah, no problem. Casket? Throwing all my Dispels at it. By the way, your Archers can't shoot anyways, I cast Chillwind." *throws 6 dice*

The main problem your Skaven list has is that it has almost no actual damage dealing units (i.e. you focus way to much on fodder). The Doomwheel is decent, but a Hell Pit Abomination or 2 Warp Lightning Cannons would simply be better at dealing damage. Clanrats should take either a Warpfire Thrower or a Poisoned Wind Mortar, otherwise you might as well field Skavenslaves instead (much more efficient fodder unit, which is what Clanrats are). You will also need a BSB if you are playing Skaven (which may be hard to fit in at this points value, under 1000 points?).

As for Tomb Kings, I wouldn't call a 5+ ward save for all your units in range an unintimidating spell. I wouldn't call an extra attack for all your units within range an unintimidating spell. Sure, he will save dispel dice for the Casket's spell, but that will only allow you to get your other spells off reliably. I would, however, suggest dropping the Casket (now that I have seen the actual points value of the games). It just isn't worth it in games of 750 points. Better field a Screaming Skull Catapult or a Khemrian Warsphinx, or better yet, both. Both of them are extremely flexible in the units they can take on (Catapult is good against Hydra as well as T3 ranked up infantry, Warsphinx is good at tying up the Hydra due to T8 and good at killing ranked up infantry).

Tk have awesome spells killing blow on 5+ on tg is like WTF I hate those guys and then a 5+ on a sphinx so first you need to wound it on a 6 first and then it has a 5+.

Also check out lore of light ws and I 10 killing blow 5+ asf with 3 attacks each is how do I say this gross give them the flaming banner and that hydra will die before it even gets to attack.
This way you will get something nasty off regardless.
Oh also you can get back 11 point models and give them and give em killing blow.

Also scorpions and necro knights oh look what's inyou back field and a scorpion can do a lot of damage with a rear charge.

I was using Stalkers against the Hydra - the rolling to Wound vs. Initiative was nasty in theory, but they're not reliable enough. One game they scattered in front of a High Elf Gunline and got mowed down, the next they didn't Scatter but one Misfired and outright killed itself. The last two managed to Inflict 5 Wounds on the Hydra, (I had decent rolls) but he regenerated 3 of them and cut them down next turn.

I was thinking about dropping the Casket, to be honest. It does dictate where my opponent's Dispel dice go, and helps me control magic a little more, especially with D3 extra PD per turn, but at the same time, like I said, I only have two spells at this point value (compared to HE and DE both having 3) so it's difficult to really get anything nasty off. They'll usually just casually Dispel to prevent resurrection, as neither of them are scared of the spells themselves.

I'd love to take Lore of Light or try Lore of Death, but my Heirophant has to use the Lore of Nehekhara. I thought about taking a High Priest and a Priest, but that seemed like overkill.

Thanks for all the input all! I'll take it into account. Good to know this thing CAN be killed.

When I was reading the thread title , i saw "low point + Dark Elf"

Then i was like "unbeatable" It must be because.....

Sorceress. There isn't really much you can do in a low point game against her...
She'll either wreck havoc on your troop heavy army.
Or you'll spend too many points to try to have your wizard(s) dispel.

Either way you do it Dark Elf wins.

Solution would probably play a larger game

Or... out of curiosity is the sorceress bunkered in any units? Maybe wipe that unit out to a low number
and have a warp-lock engineer shoot Doom Rocket at her

She's in the Crossbowmen gunline. And yes, at this point value, she's ridiculous. Best we usually do is Dispel the nasty stuff. But sometimes he'll bait with Bladewind on CC, Chillwind on Ranged, or just Soul Stealer, and when we Dispel that THEN he'll use Power of Darkness and throw something really nasty with no hope of Dispel. Or other times he'll do Power of Darkness first, and then unleash hell.

I feel like I should just make him eat a Feedback Scroll.

Admittedly, I saw her Miscast once - then roll Snakeyes on the table, and then roll a 2. She died in a most tragic and satisfying manner, and my Casket mopped the floor with him with nobody to dispel it. Although! That was his old army comp, where he had an Assassin with the Steed of Shadows thing and his Sorceress was in the Corsair unit. Since then his comp's gotten much nastier.

Tomb Kings.... I would do this.

Max out Casket ( let him have taste of cheap magic )
Carrions ( get to her asap, im sure not all her spells works in combat )

Run lots of guys at him how many points are you playing?
I played 1500 recently 50 mok gw marauders and festus cleaned up half his army and my warriors took care of the hydra.

Take 2 caskets if you can you will have a ton of power dice but meh his guys will drop to it.

HE gun line?
This term is foreign to me. Their archers are not that good and they have no big guns really bolt throwers but those are expensive.

War sphinx would help you with the firey breath for extra damage since we all know elves really cant take a hit all too well.
Then you have thunder crush and thunder stomp and unless he mindrazors his elves he will not kill the sphinx till after it gets to attack back.

For HE, you can actually fit in a prince and a noble BSB with banner of the world dragon... and some WL with banner of eternal flame. Not much else to it, but his magic will be nullified vs one unit, and flaming attacks will mince up the hydra, trust me.

As for TK, chariots with flaming banner kills hydra. The sorceress would be trickier, though if you are tooling a feed back scroll actually is a really reliable way to kill her when you bait her into throwing 6+ dice at black horror. Cuz if he is doing that he deserves to eat that or a miscast.

Pref Both.

As for the corsairs, a screaming catapult will tear him apart, as will your templates from skaven. If you can fit in a greyseer (not sure on points) with a power scroll (the newly errata'd one) dreaded 13th him.

Feed back scroll for sure that thing will oh it will do bad things to that sorcerers.

Can chariots take magic banners?
If so do it flaming impact hits why not.

TheBrandedOne wrote:
Hero:
Sorceress with some Familiar that he can place 6" away and use that for her LoS. With Dark Magic, all the cast values are low and all of his spells are pure offense - more often than not he has 3 spells (including the Power of Darkness, that generates an extra D3+1 Power Dice), so he always has enough to get off his spells, even with us Dispelling. Considering, thanks to the errata ( ), he can throw more than 6 dice at anything he wants, so that Black Horror is coming at you whether you like it or not.

15 Crossbowmen in a gunline as his bunker unit, obviously the repeater crossbows are firing 40 shots per turn, so negative penalties for multiple shots don't even matter when they fire that much, with no penalty for moving, and S3 isn't high - except for the fact that they have armor piercing.

5 Black Guard, basically just because he likes the models. But they can't be underestimated - they re-roll pretty much everything, and are immune to psychology, so they have to be taken care of because even with such small numbers they can kill efficiently.

And of course, the icing on the cake - the absurdly underpriced Hydra. This damn thing has been the bane of everyone's existence. The beast itself has 7 Attacks per turn at S5, re-rollable (first round is usually all he needs) again because of Eternal Hatred, not to mention Breath Attack in CC and Thunderstomp. Its 4+ Armor and 4+ Regenerate save make it almost unkillable.

1) Sorceress gets 1 arcane item. So he either gets +1 spell, or he gets the focus familiar. He can't get both.
2) Crossbowmen. 15 of them is 30 shots. -1 to hit for multi shot, -1 to hit for movement (they can move and fire, but do suffer the -1), and -1 for anything 12" or more. That's hitting on 6's, maybe 5's, pretty much never 4's.
3) Black Guard. They re-roll to hit, that's it.
4) Hydra is solved by flaming attacks, which are pretty easy to get now.
5) Lore of death is short ranged. You should get a turn in or two before you really have to worry.

Looks like he's making up some extra rules of his own.

Best I can say is read the rule book and listen to Matt.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

1) Sorceress gets 1 arcane item. So he either gets +1 spell, or he gets the focus familiar. He can't get both.
2) Crossbowmen. 15 of them is 30 shots. -1 to hit for multi shot, -1 to hit for movement (they can move and fire, but do suffer the -1), and -1 for anything 12" or more. That's hitting on 6's, maybe 5's, pretty much never 4's.
3) Black Guard. They re-roll to hit, that's it.
4) Hydra is solved by flaming attacks, which are pretty easy to get now.
5) Lore of death is short ranged. You should get a turn in or two before you really have to worry.

Looks like he's making up some extra rules of his own.

Yeah, that sounds like something he'd do to win. Like I said, he has more fun dominating someone than he does in a good close match. I'd much rather lose in an white-knuckled, evenly matched epic battle than win by annihilating my opponent. When he miscasted and killed his Sorceress, he almost threw the figure across the room.

Only thing was, we just took his word for what he was saying during the fights, didn't think to question it. Guess that was a mistake. It's a little disheartening, to be honest.

Ya if you have the rule book look it up if he has a problem with that you know something is wrong or if you dont know whats happening ask him to show you where it is written (if its a DE thing or not).
I especially with spells id rather have the opponent read it and explain what it does rather than him take my word for it and regret it if i do forget to mention something (unintentionally because the only time a sneaky win is ok is when its assassins or fanatics jumping out of units).

But ya when in dount look it up or have it shown to you.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
1) Sorceress gets 1 arcane item. So he either gets +1 spell, or he gets the focus familiar. He can't get both.
Looks like he's making up some extra rules of his own.

No. If you read it he says that the 3rd spell is Power of Darkness.
PoD does not take up a spell slot and that was entirely legal.

PoD is not "extra D3+1 Power Dice" Not even slightly. Cast on 1 dice it averages to be only +1 power dice (although also has other consequences.)
If he cast it at the start
with 1 dice
1+2) fails and he has loses the power dice. He can no longer cast any spells that turn. Not free at all.
3+6) gains D3 power dice. Average 2.
with 2 dice
2) fails and he loses 2 power dice. He can no longer cast any spells that turn.
3+) succeeds and if he rolls a 1-2 he gains no extra dice. 3-4 gains 1 dice. 5-6 gains 2 dice.

It's not only at risk of failing and ending a magic phase, but it can be dispelled entirely, giving no bonus to the Dark Elves at all.
Say he uses 1 dice to cast it and rolls a 3 for a success (obviously it doesn't always succeed), now 2/3rds of the time if you try to dispel it with 1 dice, he's just lost 1 power dice (and you don't need to use a dispel dice if he rolled 1 or 2 anyway.)

If he has two spells, the only intelligent use of PoD will be 1) attempt a spell 2) attempt PoD 3) attempt 2nd spell.
This means NO EXTRA DICE for spell 1 and if it fails, magic phase is over.
That means 2 separate spells which he has to not fail or else he can't cast the 3rd spell, one of which does no damage at all.

Casket of Souls D3 power dice with no risk of ending a magic phase or losing dice is much better.
Average +2 power dice, twice as many extra as Dark Elf, with none of the drawbacks of PoD.

Dark Elf sorceresses are fragile and OP describes one which costs 160 points.
DE automatically have to pay at least 35 points more for a lvl.2 than standard. That's the cost of a decent level magic item, and PoD isn't something I would buy if it were for sale.
35 points for an unreliable and situational +1 average power dice for something that can backfire is nothing to cry over.
Also, if Dark Elves throw 7-10 dice to cast a spell, there's a very high chance it simply miscasts and kills their expensive lord choice and sometimes blows the bodyguard unit to shreds.

Sounds like the complaints are all based on him being new and not a very good player yet, not a problem that actually exists with the mentioned DE list. A list which half relies on 2 randomly generated spells is pretty easy to defeat when it doesn't get the spells they want.



The only even somewhat valid thing I think would be: War Hydra is undercosted for Dark Elves.
I play Dark Elves myself and I think a 200-points cost would be very fair its amazing stats + breath weapon + regeneration + skirmishing fast monster.
At 175 points it's too-good-a-bargain. Pretty much any DE list is always more competitive by squeezing 1-2 War Hydras in since they're underpriced.
That'd still only be like a 25-point advantage though.

No reason that any hydra list should be called "unbeatable"
Every army in the entire game has ways of killing monsters.

TheBloodGod wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
1) Sorceress gets 1 arcane item. So he either gets +1 spell, or he gets the focus familiar. He can't get both.
Looks like he's making up some extra rules of his own.

No. If you read it he says that the 3rd spell is Power of Darkness.
PoD does not take up a spell slot and that was entirely legal.

Ah, read it wrong. I read it as 3 spells + PoD.
I think your take on power of darkness is a bit off.
Since you normally have more power dice than dispel dice, I can throw 2 dice at power of darkness, and it will only fail to cast 1:36.
Now you have to choose to let it go, (and give me D3+1 power dice) which at worst recovers my investment, at best gives me 2 more than I started with; or throw 1-2 dice at it to dispel.
If you have to burn your dispel dice on POD, then you won't have as many left for my bigger spells. What's worse, since I only need a 3+ for it to go off, but I cast and you dispel on equal ground, it's a lot easier to get it to go off than it is to dispel it.
My dark elves run low points with a level 1, a level 2, and a ruby ring; all with lore of fire. Their ability to general power dice at get spells off is often underestimated.

Now, for the task at hand, I'd read up on the Lore of Darkness pretty carefully. The range is crap for most of the spells, and you want to know which ones you need to dispel, and which ones you can let go.


-Matt

The list doesn't look too bad. 5 Black Guard can be taken down by shooting (T3 and a 5+ save is easy pickings)

The Hydra can be lethal but as people have said high strength flaming attacks or lore of fire are the way to bring it down.

Repeater Crossbows are not that accurate when firing multiple shots at long range. 3+ base roll, +1 for multiple shots, +1 for long range and he's left needing 5+ to hit.

Corsairs can be nasty. They've got good defence against shooting with Sea Dragon Cloaks and cut stuff up in CC. If you had mobile light cavalry then you might be able to draw them away or pull them into charging a unit which can weather the first onslaught and win combat through numbers. A large spear unit would be ideal. Beat them in combat and frenzy is lost, reducing their attacks and killing potential.

Dark Magic is designed for one thing, nuking the enemy. As people have mentioned it is low range (longest range is 24"). Him throwing loads of dice at the spells will make dispelling difficult (pray for double 6s) but should also lead to him needing to pray for good luck on the miscast table. It doesn't sound like his Sorceress has any defences so you could try sniping her with Death magic.

Overall it sounds like a lot of the problems you guys have been having is to do with his very loose "interpretation" of the rules. Every time he uses a Dark Elf special rule (such as Black Guards Warrior Elite rule) ask to see the entry in the Army book. It may sound like being a bit of a dick but if he's tweaking the rules to win then he deserves to be on the receiving end of some dickery. The difference is your dickery isn't illegal in the game.

EDIT: I do disagree that the Hydra needs nerfing in an errata though We Dark Elf players only have 2 rare choices after all and one of them is an over priced Bolt Thrower

A Town Called Malus wrote:
EDIT: I do disagree that the Hydra needs nerfing in an errata though We Dark Elf players only have 2 rare choices after all and one of them is an over priced Bolt Thrower

For high elves, try Prince on Eagle, with the item that makes him a level 1 wizard (take Death, and signature spell), and Silver Wand.
Ld10 death sniping is very effective.


As for the hydra, I'd gladly pay 225 for it, if I could get a 60 point bolt thrower (like dwarves).

-Matt

Another point... does the Hydra really get Eternal Hatred? Normally the special rules for a race don't apply to their accompanying monsters (e.g. High Elves ASF and Dragons).

As the TK player, Prince Apophas would be do quite nicely against the DE Sorceress. Taking out low toughness characters with limited or no armour save is what he's for

I think the hydra gets hatred of sorts.

Always ask for the rules if your not sure if he takes it as an offense stop playing with him. When people ask me what things do I'll hand em the book let them read it and then just clarify if they have a question even with my best gaming friends an when I have a question I get to read it myself so ya that way you learn for the future.

The catapult works well against t3 cuts em down pretty fast.
A couple tg with halberds and flaming banner means hey hydra make all you 6+ armor saves.

Flashman wrote:Another point... does the Hydra really get Eternal Hatred? Normally the special rules for a race don't apply to their accompanying monsters (e.g. High Elves ASF and Dragons).

The Hydra does get the Eternal Hatred special rule. None of the other Dark Elf monsters or mounts get it but the Hydra does.

They even faq'd it that the cold one mounts LOSE eternal hatred even though it says right in the DE book specifically that they get it. The hydra is the only thing that is not an elf that still gets eternal hatred. My advice is read, read, read the section on shooting and modifiers. I bet he is hitting on something higher than he should be. Also, breath weapons can only be used once per game now. This includes ranged and close combat.

As skaven I would take a block of clanrats to get a cheap warpfire thrower in, and a good size block of skaven slaves. Take a grey seer and watch your magic destory him. Take all plague spells as you basically want plague, wither, dreaded thirteenth, and possibly something like the giant template rat one. All his stuff minus the hydra is low toughness and will be eviscerated by magic. Show him how nasty overusing magic can be.

I play DE and at low points they can be really nasty. They start to even out as the points get higher.

I play TK and one of my best friends plays DE. We played a raising-point-value skirmishers campaign once, and I found the casket to be very useful.

As it uses a "innate" bound spell, there's no such thing as miscasting. The spell goes off and you can fire it off again next round.

If you place your units knowing that he'll be going after the casket, you should be able to get some flank maneuvers on him, and then it just becomes a maneuver battle with your casket popping off.

Now, IF your heirophant gets a good roll on his spells, divvy up with your casket.

Definitely Banner of Eternal Flame to counter the hydra. if you give up Standard of the Undying Legion on your Tomb Guard and take Eternal Flame instead, you'll whoop that thing no problem. (if you get KB on 5+ on the tomb guard with cursed blades spell, they're horribly deadly)

Also - consider not having your heirophant in a unit. Obviously this has some flaws, but it can also be useful in its own ways. I run my heirophant on foot all the time for the benefits it gives. Range on the sig spell being one, mobility being two. Just keep it within 3" of a unit so you still get your "Look Out, Sir!" rolls.

Lastly, NECROPOLIS KNIGHTS. Hot damn I love these things. For 70 points a piece they're entombed beneath the sands, and when the emerge they wreak holy effing hell on the backfields of my enemies. Used to run old-school gorgers (ogre kingdoms) for the same effect, now with necropolis knights its enhanced to the nth degree.

Hope you're still reading, because my special combo is this - I take Ramhotep the Visionary in my unit of Tomb Guard. This gives the Guard Hatred AND Frenzy. Also, Ramhotep makes a random unit with "animated construct" reroll all its failed armor saves. Now, if you're running necropolis knights (which are constructs) and no others, you're going to have a unit of nasty monstrous cavalry with a 3+ armor save that REROLLS fails, in your opponent's BACKFIELD.

Huzzah.

I don't remember exactly which DE units can move and fire, but they're the only ones who can get a shot off on your knights before they charge (only if they have a musician, of course, and then they'll be facing away from the real battle). Just be sure to move your knights close enough to the unit they're charging so he doesn't get a Stand and Shoot reaction (make the knights be within 8" and it'll deny that, unless his unit is quick to fire).

Anyway, that's how i'd play it.

Cheap heirophant on foot (you can join a unit with him anytime).
Casket.
ecropolis knights entombed.
Ramhotep the Visionary in a unit of Tomb Guard.

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:I don't remember exactly which DE units can move and fire, but they're the only ones who can get a shot off on your knights before they charge (only if they have a musician, of course, and then they'll be facing away from the real battle). Just be sure to move your knights close enough to the unit they're charging so he doesn't get a Stand and Shoot reaction (make the knights be within 8" and it'll deny that, unless his unit is quick to fire).

If by move and fire you mean March and Fire, then that'll be Dark Riders (Fast Cavalry) and Shades (Skirmishers) and it doesn't sound like the DE player is using them so no worries there. Otherwise it's every unit with long range weapons, none of them have weapons which are Move or Fire.

EDIT: Also, was thinking about the comments we've been making about Dark Magic having low range and it's not entirely true as the Focus Familiar is effectively boosting the range by 6", turning a 12" range Soul Stealer into an 18" range Soul Stealer. That 6" boost will give at least another round of your units being in range without being able to charge her and also allow her to outrange unboosted Death magic sniping spells.