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Now if only Ogryns can diversify themselves and take a Power Fist...

I run some LC in an Assault Squad, because the TH whilst great against most comers, certain armies with lots of PW's can be a knightmare. The low initiative of TH can be their undoing, The LC allow you a simultaneous rolls (dependant on iniaitive obviously) thinning the Enemy unit, before the TH puts in the Coup de grace. I have lost many an Assault Termie unit, to a Counter assault with PW's. Yes you may lose a few termies, but if you put in the Wounds you can draw or win the combat.

SS its 3+ Inv, (e.g 1/3 Chance of death) there are plenty of things out there that can get passed an Inv or force you to reroll (Null Zone), Warscythes etc. Or force alot of wounds by sheer weight of attacks.

OT though, I think Ogryns round out the IG nicely. Otherwise the only thing you will see is Power Blobs, grinding forward and grinding through your ranks.

While ogyrns are not competitive against all armies they are not useless.

They are stubborn, so if they are in an army with a lord commissar they should have a very solid leadership.

Ogyrns are T5 so power fists and thunder hammers won't instant kill them. That gives them the ability to take on TH/SS termies in CC without getting slaughtered via instant death.

The main problem is the use of ogyrns is that they are difficult to use. Between their large bases and single access hatch of the chimera mechanized deployment can be tricky. The only thing IG has going for them with the use of Ogryns is the other side will almost always come to the IG lines, so they can make an effective counter attack unit. Now the difficult part with a counter attack unit in a gunline is the gun line needs to soften things up for the counter assault unit before they assault. Against MEQ the melta vets would fire first and the counter assault units charge a weakened opponent.

Ogyrns are T5 so power fists and thunder hammers won't instant kill them. That gives them the ability to take on TH/SS termies in CC without getting slaughtered via instant death.

This is true, the terminators will at best (With BA/BT) have S9 hammers, so they can't ID them.

But Lysander can.
Or Arjac.
Or any BA librarian with sanguine sword.
Or any GK with a hammer and hammerhand.
Or any DCCW.

None of these is exactly a rare thing to see in a Terminator heavy list in a MEQ army with the possible exception of Arjac, and four of the five in the above list may actually be IN the squad of terminators you are thinking of charging the ogryns at. Let's go on to the things that can wipe ogryns out in the shooting phase, specifically, shooting that may come OUT of a charging terminatorstar at the ogryns, or units in close support of the charge!

GK/Vanilla vortex of doom (Hi! I'm one of the psychos that will TDA his librarian and run this!)
Warp rift (No one but me seems to take this one, and I cannot for the life of me see why. A pittance for in this case "Roll a 3+? Remove an ogryn." No, saves are not allowed.)
Vindicator cannons

Now the difficult part with a counter attack unit in a gunline is the gun line needs to soften things up for the counter assault unit before they assault. Against MEQ the melta vets would fire first and the counter assault units charge a weakened opponent.

Agreed. I do not advocate throwing ogryns at the nearest terminator deathstar, but if its the best of bad options this is the way to do it. I still say it should be hitting the power armor units (Especially ones like long fangs or dev if they can be reached) where it seems to be a much more efficient killer.

Hückleberry wrote:I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.

That's what everyone says when I play them as Templars. Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

It's off topic but throwing Ogryns away by coing into close combat with Terminators is a bit silly when for the points (roughly) you can have 2 squads of plasma vets to shoot them to death.
Not forgetting other Guard favorites like S10 AP2 pie plates.

Ogryns are good for trampling Tau to death though.

Ogryn's are overcosted like people say, but then again... There are many units in the Imperial Guard codex that are remarkably undercosted. So, they are a 'fair' choice for friendly games, and they're not entirely terrible either...

For example, I was playing an 1850 point game against your typical mechanised eldar list, with my Orgyns and Lord Commissar in a chimera, they literally rampaged through the eldar army. By the end of the game, they had accounted for a unit of Dire Avengers, 2 Wave Serpents and a Fire prism. It wasn't too shabby at all.

So yes, if you've got the models and are fed up with people complaining at your club about 'beardy guard' take a squad, they won't cripple your army and they can do some good.

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hückleberry wrote:I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.

That's what everyone says when I play them as Templars. Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

Only if you put them in a crusader. Terminators don't have frag grenades.

I love these threads.

Joey wrote:People often claim that ogryns, being the same price as Terminators, are worthless. Well, let's examine that.
words.
Lack of understanding the rules+words
more words
...clearly demonstrates that ogryns can take the fight to the best in the galaxy-and win.

starts with a "huh?"

Joey wrote:What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Joey wrote:I can't find anything in the book and I haven't heard of it so i'd say I don't think such a rule exists.

I have just been through the book (clearly) and cannot find it so it doesn't exist kthnx

Joey wrote:I have NEVER played with this rule before. What page in the rulebook does it state this?

"they seem to really really believe this rule exists! w-where in the rulebook could it be!

Joey wrote:ah nevermind. page 26.

D'oh!

SOFDC wrote:Er. Ogryns are NOT useless, however:

Good words, thought out words, reasoning etc

mwnciboo wrote:Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

Hmmm people who have some experience it seems are saying they aren't useless...

Joey wrote:In my defence if I'd have been correct about wound allocation rules, Ogryns would be a fair choice. Rules as stands, however, yes they are massively over-priced.

but the OP doesn't care, because he's found ogryns don't take on "the Turbo Ginsu Over Nine Thoooussaaand terminator unit."

These threads make me laugh

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective.

Hence why I was very interested in seeing the math on Ogryns v. GH, because if ogryns are a viable choice against THAT, they are certainly going to be smashing anything less capable (BA Assault marines, Tacticals, crusader squads that aren't gigantic, to name a few.) except for GKs, for a variety of reasons.

And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Yes and no, at least with vanilla and BA who didn't roll a 1 on deployment. Combat tactics shenanigans allows for a lot of leeway with this, but overall you are correct. I've been attempting to point out that a better use for these is to hit his PA squads and support, to FORCE the opponent to make decisions like this. A unit of TH/SS in a raider on most boards is a huge chunk of his army, and a misstep with it means the IG players life got a whole lot easier, even as something as simple as him diverting his TH/SS to wipe out the ogryns contesting an objective removes them as a threat to the parking lot for two turns, at best.

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Razerous wrote:

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Yeah, you mean when the Tactical Marines fall back and the Ogryns consolidate within' 6 inches and potentially chase them off the table?

Combat tactics is good and all, but it's not quite what some people make it out to be.

Monster Rain wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Yeah, you mean when the Tactical Marines fall back and the Ogryns consolidate within' 6 inches and potentially chase them off the table?

Combat tactics is good and all, but it's not quite what some people make it out to be.

Of course, if you charge and then they combat tactic, your expensive Ogryns are now open for everyone to shoot at. Including the fleeing unit.

Jihallah wrote:

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Not to mention the fact that Ogryns have Frag grenades, so they can actually assault into cover on their own, unlike a certain unit we have mentioned in this thread *cough* Terminators *cough*

PraetorDave wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Not to mention the fact that Ogryns have Frag grenades, so they can actually assault into cover on their own, unlike a certain unit we have mentioned in this thread *cough* Terminators *cough*

not to mention that they are I3 even with FC so would strike last anyway vs Marines

Well thats besides the point. At least if they charged terminators in cover they would hit before them. But we already covered why thats a bad idea.

Only real issue with Ogryns is their Ld value.

Otherwise, they are only internet-bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:Only real issue with Ogryns is their Ld value.

Otherwise, they are only internet-bad.

They are not bad per-se, in a vacuum they are okay. In the context of the IG playstyle they are a tool that is opposite to how the army plays best, and therefore are not good in most*** good IG lists.

Ratlings and Ogryns are both kind of a let down
Not either are really that bad, but they can all use a bit of boost.
For Ratlings, it's mostly the bad sniper rifle rule. They are actually one of the better sniper unit. Compare to Scouts or Rangers, they cost quite a lot less.
Ogryns can really use a Power Weapon, or some kind of upgrades for you to diversify them.

Jackster wrote:Now if only Ogryns can diversify themselves and take a Power Fist...

Here here!

I'd be happy really with the Bone'ead being able to take a power bayonet on his ripper gun like the Ogryns can in Dawn of War. that would at least give them some utility against things wearing armor.

To be honest, I always want Ogres to be decent, but every edition they end up lacking. At least we got the Penal Legion back in a rather interesting form. Maybe if the Ogryns got a chart to roll on like the Penal Legion that could give them better abilities (maybe based on how well they were fed before the battle?) A point cost reduction is a given. Quick idea just popped into my head, they get power bayonets that work for the first round of combat, but afterwards the abuse they take from being used as clubs renders them non functional for the rest of the battle? (power bayonet = regular power weapon for rules sake)

I have had ALOT of luck with Ogryn and have used them many times vs Terminators. Expecially Power fist terminators.

5 Ogryn charge, they get alot of attacks, high strength, The terminators counter attack (usually two or three down) and do a couple wounds, no ogryn die.

Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit? It would tie them up and might even kill them, and the Ogryns would cost more points, and use up an elite slot to tie up a troops slot.

I wish I could like Ogryns, but every edition of the Guard Codex has them flawed in some way.

They need something extra, pick one or more of the below:
1. Points cost reduction
2. Access to power weapons, even if only the Bone 'Ead.
3. Feel no Pain (fluff reasons, they are too dumb to die and shrug off just about anything)
4. Ogryn Commissars. (another great fluff piece, inspires them to greater acts of heroism since they see the commissar as having a direct line to the Emperor)
5. Rending, their insane strength lets them rip things limb from limb, and fluff has an Ogryn dragging a disabled chimera when asked to get the medkit that was inside of it for an officer.

They need something, right now, they have great looking models but rules that make them a poor choice.

Norsehawk wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit? It would tie them up and might even kill them, and the Ogryns would cost more points, and use up an elite slot to tie up a troops slot.

I wish I could like Ogryns, but every edition of the Guard Codex has them flawed in some way.

Really, they aren't bad, they just don't fit in the guard codex
they clobber weak"ish" units, I have hundreds of lasguns in my lists that do this job
they throw tons of dice at thinks like TH terminators, again, lasguns
they are high toughness multiwound models, in may armies they will attract every heavy weapon on the board, defeating the purpose
they shoot a torrent of S5 fire at short range, which might be useful if they didnt wound the things I would want that for on a 5/6, when the 5 points guardsmen wound on a 6
Ive run them a few times, and while they do hammer T3/4 models fairly well, I really dont have an issue with those!

They are one of the best counter assault units for a hybrid list like mine. Also they are one of the units i can use to apply pressure on my opponents side of the board from the get go that does not require cover (they have a chimera). Did i mention that they can wreck transports pretty reliably in assaults? Their chimera will not be bogged down in terrain unlike infantry blobs that need to hug it to stay alive so by turn 3 i have reached the other side of the board while the opponent has to choose between firring at the ogryn's chimera, the veteran chimeras that are coming closer, the blob that is trying to tarpit him or the artillery/tanks/HWTs that are blasting him to kingdom come. No not useless...

Sorry, who is it in the whole world who's stupid enough to have a squad of 5 Lightning Claw terminators? And who's stupid enough not to have power weapons or plasma cannons specifically for such stupid units?

So here's what actually happens. Marine turn 1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons. Guard turn 1: any attacks on the TH/SS terminators bounce off the armour/invun. The ogryn charges and gets mullered.

Ursa wrote:I have had ALOT of luck with Ogryn and have used them many times vs Terminators. Expecially Power fist terminators.

5 Ogryn charge, they get alot of attacks, high strength, The terminators counter attack (usually two or three down) and do a couple wounds, no ogryn die.

1. You are quite right, this was pure luck.
2. Yes, but that was power fist terminators. The only reason people have them is because: a) they got the assault on black reach set, or b) they want them to carry assault cannons of rocket launchers which can quite happily shred a squad of ogryns before the charge.
3. A lot of attacks at high strength are amazing at bouncing off a 2+ armour save, before you're wounded on a 2+ by even higher strength power fists.
4. There is no such word as "alot". It is, in fact, 2 words, namely "a" and "lot". It would be very nice if some people here learnt english before posting.

Your first three arguments are sufficient. There's no call for "learn English" type attacks. Thanks! ~Manchu

I think that post is really quite a fallacious statement.

For example, last I checked, Devastator (people in glass houses....) squads aren't armed with Demolisher Cannons, so it's going to be pretty difficult to instantly kill 3 Ogryns.

If anything, the most common devastator squad I see is 4 missile launchers, who'll kill... one ogryn, provided they all hit.

However, to clarify. Ogryn's are not going to be able to reliably take on terminators. That is playing into the Marines hands (fighting their opponents toughest units.) You're better off feeding the termies Guardsmen squads and using the ogryns on something else.

There was some maths earlier on Ogryns V Grey Hunters. I'm not certain Ogryns in reality cause many more points than the hunters, and after the fight will still be around to do some good.

The thing to remember is, are the things shooting at the ogryns enough to do damage, going to be shooting at something else if they weren't there. If they are, then they've bought your tanks some time. If they're just taking bolter fire that otherwise wouldn't have been able to shoot.... Then maybe it's worth rethinking.

In any case, my experience as I mentioned is. I wouldn't take them to a tournament again, but they're fun for club nights or games round mates houses.

p_gray99 wrote:1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons.

man, that was some good lucky plasma fire or way more than one squad of devestators