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People often claim that ogryns, being the same price as Terminators, are worthless. Well, let's examine that.
5 ogryn vs 5 Terminators with lightening claws.
The ogryns shoot before they charge, 15 shots at BS3 gives us 7.5 hits.
7.5 S5 against T4 gives us
5 wounds.
This will be one wound against EVERY member of the squad, giving us
0.83 deaths.

Now the ogryns charge.
The terminators go first with 3 hits each, 15 in total
7.5 hit
2.5 wound, then re-rolls get another 2 for 4.5 wounds.
So 4 of the ogryns are now down to 2 wounds each.
The ogryns strike back, with 20 attacks in total.
10 hit
6.6 wound.
this means 4 will take 1 wound, 1 will take two, doubling their chances of dying
so the 4 will cause 0.6 wounds, the 1 will take 0.3 wound, giving 0.9 wounds in total.

*ASSUMING THE OGRYNS DO NOT FLEE*

the terminators strike again next assault, only 4 this time so 12 attacks.
6 hit
3.3 wound (approx and with re-rolls)
Now 2 ogryns are on 1 wound, 3 ogryns are on 2.
the ogryns strike back, 15 attacks, 7.5 hit.
5 wound.
0.83 deaths
giving total wounds 3.3 to terminators, 7.7 to ogryns.

Now there are only 2 terminators left, they're still slogging away, giving 6 attacks.
3 will hit, 1.6 will wound, so now 3 ogryns are on 1 wound, 2 are on 2.
Ogryns strike back, still doing 15 attacks. 7.5 hit, 5 wound, another 0.83 deaths.
O-9.3 T-4.1

Now there's only one terminator left, doing 3 attacks. 1.5 hit, 0.8 wound. Now ALL ogryns are on 1 wound.
Nevertheless, they strike back, doing 15 attacks, 7.5 hit and 0.83 wound. Since I've not kept track of second decimal place in this count, I would hazard a guess this would be enough to kill the squad.
Obviously the ogryns would probably have to be fearless/stubborn in order for this to work, but it clearly demonstrates that ogryns can take the fight to the best i nthe galaxy-and win.

I thought we are supposed to allocate wound on one that has already taken a wound?
And the only way to dodge that allocation is the same way people set up Nob Bikers? that is all with different gears?

What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Joey wrote:What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Forgive me if im wrong, i don't play often xD

though i was sort of sure on the wound thing due to Nob Bikers used to be very popular and wound allocation abuse
was what made them good.

I can't find anything in the book and I haven't heard of it so i'd say I don't think such a rule exists.

Have you read the rulebook? You should have lost an ogryn, and lost a wound on another. Also don't EVER assume charges. The Ogryns WILL lose combat to Terminators, even tactical Terminators with stormbolters & pwrfists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think you quite understand wound allocation in 5th ed.

Mathhammer also should work both ways.

One that Ogre charges
and
One that Termies charges. ( so they also get to shoot )

Wound allocation doesn't work with Ogryns (except for the Bone 'Ead) as they all have the same wargear and stats. As such, they're groups of identical models and you have to take wounds from one at a time until it dies.


On another note, if it's not Templars, who the hell bothers taking LC Terminators when there's Hammernators?

I have NEVER played with this rule before. What page in the rulebook does it state this?
If it's true then yeah you can ignore everything i just put.

Look at the index, then look at wound allocation.

Lol, try page 39 'allocating wounds' and page 25 'complex' units. So you'd actually lose 2/3 ogryns from wounds, before the termies strike so you'd only get 8/12 attacks back, half miss, a third of these wound and then the terminator has a 2+ save, ogryns lose.

ah nevermind. page 26.

Lack of an invulnerable, more difficult due to the army (IG) to get a cover save, 2+ wound dead from str10 weapons. For those simple reason, not worth it.

Granted they are pretty hitty but they don't scale well. A small squad doesn't actually do much to anything and a bigger squad is too easy to break without support, with support is simply asks for it with the point value and unlike a nobz biker squad (for example) it cannot stand up to the punishment.

The support, btw, merely boils down to higher LD or fearless.

Useless is a strong term. Nothing is useless really. At worst anything with a mass can be used as a paperweight.

Instead, one can simply say that they perform no effective or efficient function.

They are a fluffy choice taken for reasons other than their function - unless you are over estimating their function.

I really, really wanted to like Ogryns, but they're just too little too late... maybe is they where 5 pts. less and had a way to kill Termies or Marines like Rending... as it is, they're fantastic anvil, but nothing in the IG book is a "hammer" type unit, so they fall a bit flat, IMO.

Er. Ogryns are NOT useless, however:

The mobility of a land raider/stormraven versus the finer points of trying to assault out of a chimera is going to mean that if the marine player doesn't want this fight to happen, it probably won't. If he does, the ogryns probably won't be the ones charging.

Two, what army is being played, and how often do you really see terminators on the board that aren't under the effect of some sort of special rule (to say nothing of IC) support? Whether it's SW counter-attack, BA/BT furious charge, BA local FNP, BT preferred enemy, Vulkan, etc.

The only conclusion I can reach is that these must be, in fact, Vanilla codex LC terminators. AKA The least useful of all assault terminators. These terminators got charged, and still seem to be dropping ogryns faster than they themselves are dying off...not a ringing endorsement.

Don't throw the ogryns at the Turbo Ginsu Over Nine Thoooussaaand terminator unit. Throw them at the power armor units who you might actually kill and have a viable unit remaining afterwards. I'd be more interested in a test up against the biggest, "Wow that's cheezy" unit of grey hunters possible or against Strike Squad.

With out thinking about too much at all 200 pts of guardsmen should do well against 200pts of assault termies with TH/SS.

In my defence if I'd have been correct about wound allocation rules, Ogryns would be a fair choice. Rules as stands, however, yes they are massively over-priced.

Ogryns, are not something to be taken lightly. They are one of those units that can really surprise you and definitely something you want to either Kill outright, or put at Arms length.

If you opt to Kill you need a fair bit of firepower to neutralise, leaving the rest of the enemy force unscathed. If you manoeuvre away, then you are altering your plans and making your life more difficult for yourself. Neither of these outcomes is foavourable and therefore they are fulfilling a role. On the subject of points yes they are expensive.

Except that line of thinking is flawed.

If you take the maneuvering option early in the game, you take the ogryns out of the fight. This means you now have an IG army with a couple hundred points less actually putting the hurt on. This also results in the opposing force being able to leverage more of its firepower against the ranged threats of the IG commander, neutralising them early. The earlier a ranged threat can be neutralized, the better off the opponent is.

Ogryns can be ignored and outmaneuvered early game and left to be dealt with late game. They don't have a huge impact when they force combat turns 3-4, if they are still alive.

IG does not have the tools to make good use of a unit like Ogryns, and any IG general is fooling himself if he think he can put on the kind of pressure he needs with them. They simply do not fit well with the rest of the tools in the IG arsenal.

Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

If you opt to Kill you need a fair bit of firepower to neutralise

I can only speak for MEQ armies, but S10 or otherwise ID/remove-from-play is not hard to come by, in shooting or assault varieties. "Don't put your TH/SS in CC with this" is not the same as "Change the entire battleplan." and it may not even go that far, should close support or something with the squad carry the ability to deal with ogryns already.

You also have to consider that the Ogryns, in their Chimera, should NEVER be getting the assault off on the Terminators, in their assault vehicle Land Raider.

Aside from the already mentioned inconsistencies in the example, with the wrong wound allocation and use of LC terminators which people really don't use that much, Ogryns CAN be used better than this.

They aren't there to take on Terminators, they won't win against any competent opponent (who wouldn't get charged, and would have TH/SS). They can provide a decent counter-charge unit, and a big meat shield/distraction, and scare the pants off stuff like Tau.

They aren't useless, but it has nothing to do with Terminators. On the other hand, they still aren't that great.

Again, I would love to see the math on ogryns v. harder hitting power amor squads, or against things like orks

SOFDC wrote:Again, I would love to see the math on ogryns v. harder hitting power amor squads, or against things like orks

How many orks? Points equivilent? Problem with that would be figuring out how many could actually be within 2" of an ogryn.
Maybe nobs would be interesting but i've no idea what their stats are.

mwnciboo wrote:Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

Avoid them the whole game? Probably not.

Avoid them for at least 2 turns? No problem. Objectives don't matter until turn 5.

The point is that avoiding them for 2 turns makes the battle somewhat lopsided.

Oh yeah, and that's with C:SM. With DE I could avoid them for as long as I wanted.

SOFDC wrote:I'd be more interested in a test up against the biggest, "Wow that's cheezy" unit of grey hunters possible or against Strike Squad.

Yes sir!

GREY HUNTERS UNIT ALPHA
9x Grey Hunters: Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Weapon - 180pts
Wolf Guard: Combi-melta and Powerfist - 43pts
Rhino - 35pts
TOTAL - 258pts

For pretty much the same price (250pts) we can get 5 Ogryns and a Bone 'ead. Just for fun, we'll see how this would play out when...

EVERYTHING GOES THE OGRYNS' WAY

Ogryns shoot at the Grey Hunters (for this, we'll assume they don't, or can't, use the Wolf Standard):
18 S5 shots at BS3 = 9 hit, 5.94 wound (let's round to 6), 2 Grey Hunters die.

The Ogryns then charge, and the Space Wolves fail their counter-attack roll. Poor buggers. Space Wolves strike first, however (except for the Wolf Guard).
WS4 vs WS4
10 attacks from the regular Grey Hunters = 5 hit, 1.65 wound (we'll round to 2), 1.32 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 1).
2 attacks from the power weapon = 1 hit, .33 wound (we'll round to 0).
On average, about 4 attacks for the Wulfen = 2 hit, 0.66 wound (we'll assume this doesn't rend), 0.43 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 0).

So, so far, only 1 wounded Ogryn. Ogryns' turn to strike back:
25 attacks at S6 (!!!) for Furious Charge = 12.5 hit, 10.38 wound, 3.42 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 3).

However, the Wolf Guard gets to strike back now.
2 attacks at S8 = 1 hit, 0.69 unsaved wounds... so probably 1 dead Ogryn.

So, at the end of the turn, we've got 5 dead Grey Hunters, 1 dead Ogryn and an Ogryn with 1 wound... assuming I did my Mathhammer right. Of course, that's with everything to their advantage, and even then it's about even, but to be fair they're fighting Grey Hunters.

They are very good against Lightly armored infantry

ChocolateGork wrote:They are very good against Lightly armored infantry

So are 20 Guardsmen with lasguns and two flamers.

Ogryn are neat, but a CC Elite should be able to steamroll a Troop choice that it gets to shoot and assault.

I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.