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Grundz wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons.

man, that was some good lucky plasma fire or way more than one squad of devestators

True, but I don't even need to use the devestators. I was simply making a point that it's never as simple as one squad vs. another squad.

Norsehawk wrote:I'd be happy really with the Bone'ead being able to take a power bayonet on his ripper gun like the Ogryns can in Dawn of War. that would at least give them some utility against things wearing armor.

To be honest, I always want Ogres to be decent, but every edition they end up lacking. At least we got the Penal Legion back in a rather interesting form. Maybe if the Ogryns got a chart to roll on like the Penal Legion that could give them better abilities (maybe based on how well they were fed before the battle?) A point cost reduction is a given. Quick idea just popped into my head, they get power bayonets that work for the first round of combat, but afterwards the abuse they take from being used as clubs renders them non functional for the rest of the battle? (power bayonet = regular power weapon for rules sake)

No one-use power weapons please. The Tallarn Rough Riders (and their horses) would like to have a word with you.

Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

I've seen a couple people take a squad of five and a Lord Commissar and outflank using Creed to smash into enemy held objectives or combo-assault transports. It works to a degree but doesn't really make up their points, but its fun to watch a Long Fang's eyes pop out of their sockets when a hulking monstrosity clobbers the Alpo out of him.

I like the idea of their own 'combat drugs' chart, since their considered Ab-Human Mutants anyway. They could have a Mutation Chart which affects their statlines...

Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

kavyaanshrike wrote:Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

It's simply that you don't take a whole unit of them, else any decent opponent will wipe them out first turn with plasma cannon fire. 3 TH/SS minimum works well, more than 3 invun saves is either unlucky or the squad's had it anyway.

Well, ogryns are not supposed to fight things with a save better than 3+, since you have demolisher cannons and battle cannons that does that job. No, imagine this.
Your big combined squad is in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. This melee could take a LONG time, and your big squad is all but tied up. Massed lasguns? they can't fire into melee, so good luck with them. Buuuuut.... enter the ogryns. They cant fire, but since the melee is already in action, they get a gauranteed charge. they can clobber a lot of Warriors, and while some might clamber to their feet, the RO makes sure that power weapons wouldn't have made as much difference. If you have a commissar with power fist/PW you can end the melee swiftly, and necrons are certainly not cheap. (yeah, i know, necrons will get new codex that doesnt seem....good) but this should work.

StormForged wrote:
Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

Yes, but that's a silly thing to say, an Ogryn Squad cannot be wiped out by a single Krak missile can it? But a Leman Russ Tank can, it's too simplistic to say this is better than this because it is the same points.

Comparing like for like is fairer, for example a tactical Squad with a Grey Hunter Squad etc, etc. Saying things like take ML's instead of HB's because of longer range and the ability to be Anti Tank and anti infantry makes it more flexible than a Heavy Bolter is pretty fair.

kavyaanshrike wrote:Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

Agreed, people who have hammernators only, will be vulnerable to high initiative assault units, like Genestealers with adrenal sacs and poison claws or DE assault units for example . On equal initiative, the LC's really help thin the ranks of attacks, with the re-roll to wound and that people get no armour save, so unless they have Inv, they is dead. The real killer is theThunderhammer but you need to protect them as they take time to strike, force enough wounds and you are laughing. 1/3 to kill on the Storm shield, so 15 PW or equivalent wounds will kill the Squad outright. But you don't even have to kill them all, just kill a few and instantly you have reduced the amount of returning attacks.

Lightning Claws get the re-role to wound, and don't suffer initiative problems, you get a pair so +1 attack, on the charge +1 attack. Lightning claws are design to thin enemy ranks before their weight on numbers cripples the Storm shield and hammer termies in the strike back. Terminator Chaplains and Assault termies are devastating.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, ogryns are not supposed to fight things with a save better than 3+, since you have demolisher cannons and battle cannons that does that job. No, imagine this.
Your big combined squad is in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. This melee could take a LONG time, and your big squad is all but tied up. Massed lasguns? they can't fire into melee, so good luck with them. Buuuuut.... enter the ogryns. They cant fire, but since the melee is already in action, they get a gauranteed charge. they can clobber a lot of Warriors, and while some might clamber to their feet, the RO makes sure that power weapons wouldn't have made as much difference. If you have a commissar with power fist/PW you can end the melee swiftly, and necrons are certainly not cheap. (yeah, i know, necrons will get new codex that doesnt seem....good) but this should work.

Firstly, I agree. Ogryns are good at taking out Fire Warriors.

Secondly, Imagine this. There is a combined squad in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. The melee could take a long time, so you decide to charge in the ogryns. Just before the ogryns reach the melee they are blown up by the new necron super-cannon-thing, or charged by flayed ones, or something else, and you lose the game.

What I'm saying is that, yes, in this situation ogryns work. However, what if they're on the other side of the board? or are blown up first turn? Or they're unlucky in close combat and get annihilated?

Ogryns can't be relied upon.


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mwnciboo wrote:

StormForged wrote:
Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

Yes, but that's a silly thing to say, an Ogryn Squad cannot be wiped out by a single Krak missile can it? But a Leman Russ Tank can, it's too simplistic to say this is better than this because it is the same points.

Comparing like for like is fairer, for example a tactical Squad with a Grey Hunter Squad etc, etc. Saying things like take ML's instead of HB's because of longer range and the ability to be Anti Tank and anti infantry makes it more flexible than a Heavy Bolter is pretty fair.

Firstly, one lucky krak missile, especially if against it's front armour: a hit, then a 6, then a 5 or 6!

Also, we compared ogryns with their like, termies, and found that they fell down dead at first sight of them.

There is no such thing as luck, it's just chance. Like everything in this universe.

mwnciboo wrote:There is no such thing as luck, it's just chance. Like everything in this universe.

I couldn't agree more. Chances are that ogryns will fall down dead when they meet any real resistance. Chances are that a leman russ will survive such resistance, even if it came out damaged.

Fair enough, I just don't see the logic of replacing an Assault Infantry formation with a Tank. However yes, it is unlikely head on, it is still possible to total a Leman Russ with a single missile. An Ogryn squad however will take a single wound, I agree with all your earlier comments however.

So we've decided that ogryns aren't worth their points, and I think everyone here has agreed with this. However, don't let this put you off getting them: They're good models and probably fun to play with. Just don't expect them to be competitive.

Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

I have seen ogryns work ok in 2 ways. One we played a few test games with 3 groups of 5 ogryns in chimera's running down the middle of the field and some cheap shooty vets for objectives. Didn't work great, still lost the games to be honest, but that many tough mutli-wound models is just tough to deal with. The gmaes I tested where they worked ok was advancing in front of blobs as a screen. They need to be taken out because of the cover save they confer to the unit behind them and draw anti tank weapons off of other targets because their hi T makes them resistant to low str guns. They will never shine as a unit, they do either need a points reduction or a rending/power weapon option.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

PraetorDave wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

I think we're missing the point here. IG have tanks and hordes of infantry that can deal with pretty much anything in the game. What they don't have is survivable units that aren't tanks, and even their tanks die if hit in the back with a heavy bolter.

Ogryns may be useful at surviving, and simply distracting any enemies. One possible tactic is charging towards Tau, and either using up their frepower for a turn, or do amazing amounts of damage.

However, I think it is their points cost that makes them so unusable

p_gray99 wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

I think we're missing the point here. IG have tanks and hordes of infantry that can deal with pretty much anything in the game. What they don't have is survivable units that aren't tanks, and even their tanks die if hit in the back with a heavy bolter.

Ogryns may be useful at surviving, and simply distracting any enemies. One possible tactic is charging towards Tau, and either using up their frepower for a turn, or do amazing amounts of damage.

However, I think it is their points cost that makes them so unusable

well the question mwnciboo posed was if orgyrns could hold up against something other than TH/SS terminators, and I posed a different unit. One that is also considered competitive, but for different reasons, and that would possibly be a more fair fight.

Norsehawk wrote:
What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit?

Win the assault. It's simple math.

Agreed, people who have hammernators only, will be vulnerable to high initiative assault units, like Genestealers with adrenal sacs and poison claws or DE assault units for example . On equal initiative, the LC's really help thin the ranks of attacks, with the re-roll to wound and that people get no armour save, so unless they have Inv, they is dead.

I'm sorry, but these are bad examples. Against dedicated DE assault units and genestealers (Or halberds, or LW + BS warriors, slaanesh marked CSM, hormagaunts, etc.) you swing last regardless of whether or not you have a hammer and shield, except some of your models are taking the heavy hits on a 5++ instead of a 3++. On equal initiative, you prevent nothing from coming in, and you again have reduced the amount of stormshields availible to take the harder smacks.

The best use I have found for taking LCs outside of a BA or BT list is to open up a second wound allocation group. That's about it. The lack of reliable access to furious charge or straight I5 makes them pretty horrible for forgoing the stormshield, the anti tank/MC/character ability of the hammer, the perks like one would get from vulkan in vanilla marines, etc. If you want to soften something up for the hammer units...Shoot it. Lightning claws are less than stellar at the role. (SW Wierdos, this does not apply to you. The huge cost increase you people take for the TH/SS combo gives you a very real reason to take claws instead. Yours are better than ours too.)

Anyway, back on topic. The new necrons are out, and it appears that almost everything they have to throw into CC is at I2, barring wraiths and HQs, and not many have better than a 3+ to protect them. So, this opens up new avenues for the Ogryns to prove their worth. Let's run the numbers on Ogryns against...say... Lychguard and Praetorians.

Ogryns got the triple whammy of ignored units: Does bad against the meta, goes against the army's style, and is not uniquely useful. They can be useful, with the current points, with the currents options, they just don't do well now.

I don't have the necron codex, but it looks like they are really similar. It would be hard to say, since Ogryns have more attacks, and if they get the charge, they swing first, but the lychguard have 3+ saves. I would probably give it to the lychguard, since they ignore the orgryns (admittedly awful) save, and have a good save. However, if the ogryns get the charge, they would definitely do a lot of damage.

I've tried Ogryns a few times and have been pretty disappointed.

Despite decent offensive presence, they aren't a true "hammer" unit.

And T5 with 3 Wounds does not a rock unit make. They do ok against most things, but anything that can throw out a large number of S5 hits will be taking them down quickly. I.e., BA on the charge, Berzerkers, most Tyranids.... you see what I'm driving at.

If they where about 10 points less, than I could forgive those deficiencies, but as it is... they're pretty tough to work with.

The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

I don't see where else this post can go. We've worked out that ogryns aren't viable pointswise: They aren't tough enough, they aren't strong enough, they aren't cheap enough. Whatever anyone else says, it won't really matter. They may be able to do a little damage to necrons, so will be taken out by numerous S10 blasts before they get there.
The thread may as well be closed. We've pretty much looked at every single aspect of the Ogryn and found that it isn't quite good enough. Don't bother arguing: There's 3 pages of posts before this to argue against before you argue with this one.

Ogryns are good to use as full backs in a foot slogging army and thats about it IMO. If the enemy shoots them then your big guns get close if they don't they have really disruptive melee units in thier ranks. but yeah ogryns are over costed and underpowered.


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Config2 wrote:The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

and points wise is proabably the wost buy in the whole codex

Majsharan wrote:Ogryns are good to use as full backs in a foot slogging army and thats about it IMO. If the enemy shoots them then your big guns get close if they don't they have really disruptive melee units in thier ranks. but yeah ogryns are over costed and underpowered.


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Config2 wrote:The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

and points wise is proabably the wost buy in the whole codex

And saying that he is the best non-space marine in the game is ridiculous. You claim that he is better than Ghazzy? Or Eldrad? Or Vect? The list goes on...

This thread can be summarized with a title change-

"Ogryns are NOT useless... Just mediocre"

And mediocre isn't particularly bad, depending on your local environment.

As part of a traditional British gaming club, ogryns fit in perfectly fine here,

Anyone thought to use the new mantic orc warboss or 'nob' equivalent units to model ogyns cheaply?

I love the ogryns. Everybody whines about how they can be oneshotted by demolisher cannons and such. Hello? Wake up please. If you know the slightest bit about IG, you have heard the word Chimera.

Simply hold them back, and either 1. the enemy shoots your army, in which case you win due to your artillery, or 2. the enemy charges forward. When in range, you just jump out of the chimera, take a turn of shooting (should be possible if you hide behind the chimera) and assault in, and what you do not crush is now held up for the rest of the game (unless they're supermonsters, in which case you should use lascannons and assault something else) Ogryns take care of almost everything, and what they don't kill, your vendettas can.



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Supermonsters and terminators.

I don't think IG want Ogryns to tangle with terminators unless there is no other choice. However there is evidence the IG player might need some Ogryns to help repel a Necron scarab swarm attack. I would think the Ogryns would be a good choice to help IG deal with that.

scarab farms can get to 28 scarabs on turn 2 and when spread out no amount of templates can do much damage to them, but when spread out to mitigate templates, then the scarabs are weakened versus an Ogryns attack on an edge.