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DeffDred wrote:I feel like they shouldmove the story forward on the marines and say the High Lords decided it was time to make a massive founding and when marine crazy.
They make like a few million marines (say it was necissary for all the current threats) and use this as a way to explain the massive number of marine armies we see in gaming stores.
They don't need to make a real big deal out of it. All the main chapters could send 100 marines to go lead a new chapter and thus we have such a wide range of marines we actually see in the real world.

...no. There's already enough chapters to incorporate pretty much any idea. The galaxy is a big place.

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them.

Content of character was not taken into account. Obviously they didn't screen for susceptibility to Chaos. The were producing Astares at an incredible rate back then. They had standards but they were lower.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them.

Content of character was not taken into account. Obviously they didn't screen for susceptibility to Chaos. The were producing Astares at an incredible rate back then. They had standards but they were lower.

That's a bit different to "they let anybody in".

While it is true that 30K marines were not screened for Chaos corruption (though, given that psychic powers did exist and were known, they were probably screened for a lot of mental stability), it's also true that ultimately, there has been deterioration of the geneseed. Several chapters have lost entire organs, or the function of the organ in question has ceased, or become corrupted. Thus, I don't see any way NOT to say that, overall, the genetic 'strength' of the Marines has been reduced (of course, some Chapters have lost no functions of their geneseed, such as the Ultramarines and Dark Angels).

Given that technological development was at its height before the Heresy, and technologies have been lost since then (loss of Forge Worlds, etc), I don't see any way to avoid saying that technologically, the 'strength' of the Marines has been reduced. They can no longer field entire armored divisions of Land Raiders, squads of Imperial Jet Bikes, hundreds of Assault craft (note the regrets of the Silver Skull in the new Gaunt's Ghosts novel).

Given that military strategy and tactics are no longer written by the Emperor and his Primarchs, but by lesser, mortal beings, I don't see any way to avoid saying that strategically, Marines have been weakened over the years. While I can't point to a single specific example of this, given that the Emperor and the Primarchs were regarded as 'pretty darn smart', losing your best generals should have some effect, right?

Chaos Space Marines are right. They don't make Marines like they used to.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

I had always assumed that natural selection had been slowly culling out the weaker SMs (and hummies) over the intervening millennia, slowing making them stronger and more resistant to Chaos. It would a depressing level of incompetence (perhaps making it more Grid-Markie) for the AdMech to not even be able to maintain a level footing with the geneseed tithes.

UselessSage wrote:a depressing level of incompetence

That sums up the AdMech for me.

Get Bjorn to duel with some other recently-interred Dread?

1hadhq wrote:Aren't the things in the "old days" always better?

That is what is claimed. It's almost alwys false though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackster wrote:No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It does when they're weak-willed beings of questionable loyalty to begin with...

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Aren't the things in the "old days" always better?

That is what is claimed. It's almost alwys false though.

It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.

Jackster wrote:No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It does when they're weak-willed beings of questionable loyalty to begin with...

Chapters are generally friendly to ones that descend from the same primarch anyway I think. And they all worship the Ultramarines apparently. HERESY!

Durza wrote:It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.

Not in 30k. They had just barely recovered technology back then. In 40k they've had 10,000 years to study them, and the Mechanicus has been doing EXACTLY that the entire time along with searching for more and making new things.

Honestly, why do people think the mechanicus just sits on its arse all day burning incense and praying tot he almighty computer god? That has never been part of the Mechanicus' lore.

I'd say no, 40K Marines probably aren't as good as 30K Marines. Fighting with your Primarch leading you shouldn't be underestimated, for a whole host of reasons.

Melissia wrote:

Durza wrote:It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.

Not in 30k. They had just barely recovered technology back then. In 40k they've had 10,000 years to study them, and the Mechanicus has been doing EXACTLY that the entire time along with searching for more and making new things.

Honestly, why do people think the mechanicus just sits on its arse all day burning incense and praying tot he almighty computer god? That has never been part of the Mechanicus' lore.

Yeah, the Mechanicus has spent the last 10,000 years determining which combination of ritual kicks and curse words best appeases the machine spirits of every random piece of tech. The Mechanicus is pretty good on the 'what' and the 'how' of getting technology to work, but they're absolute garbage on the 'why'. They're basically a cargo cult with a really good machine shop.

daveNYC wrote:Yeah, the Mechanicus has spent the last 10,000 years determining which combination of ritual kicks and curse words best appeases the machine spirits of every random piece of tech. The Mechanicus is pretty good on the 'what' and the 'how' of getting technology to work, but they're absolute garbage on the 'why'.

The lowest level yes. Magos and higher have a better understanding of technology than we could ever dream of. They spend centuries studying and understanding their specialty.

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It doesn't different? It doesn't better? Ok then.

Anyway, yes, Chapters are better for the current situation. What's better? A huge single army based in one place that takes a long time to coordinate a small portion of the army to the battlefield, or a small garrison force that can be where they're needed much faster? Yeah, the latter is better, plus I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed.

Chapters are far less useful than the legions were. Right off the bat, you've got chain of command issues whenever you get two chapters operating in the same zone, not to mention conflicts when two Chapter Masters show up to a party. Plus, any request for aid would have to go out to multiple chapters, and with communication being what it is in the 40k universe, that's no small thing.

Then you have issues like the Mortifactors refusing to fight alongside the Lamenters at Corillia, or the Dark Angels tendency to throw any battle plan out the window if they get word of a Fallen in the area.

The massive combined arms units that were the Legions and their Expeditionary fleets are far, far superior to the current Chapter setup. And that's exactly how the Imperium wants it.

Superior for the Crusade, not for the defense of the Imperium. There were command issues with the Legions as well, read Horus Rising.

Durza wrote:And they all worship the Ultramarines apparently. HERESY!

They don't though. That quote has been mangled on the internet, it originally said that most Chapters considered Calgar their spiritual liege. Considering that a majority of the current Chapters are Ultramarine-derived, I don't find that too silly.

That's still no reason for them to consider Calgar anything more than a worthy ally.

iproxtaco wrote:I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed.

The Defense of Hive World Corillia. Mortifactors abandon the planet and the Lamenters to the fury of the 9th Black Crusade...Because they had a bad feeling about working together with the Lamenters.


Want more? I can give you tons of examples of chapters failing to work together, failing to respond to certain calls for aid, revolting, slaughtering civilians almost institutionally, ect.

Shattering your best troops into small, autonomous units is a dumb idea. They should have stuck with units but institutionalized checks and balances into the command hierarchy...Instead of always picking one dude to do the job.

iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It doesn't different? It doesn't better? Ok then.

Anyway, yes, Chapters are better for the current situation. What's better? A huge single army based in one place that takes a long time to coordinate a small portion of the army to the battlefield, or a small garrison force that can be where they're needed much faster? Yeah, the latter is better, plus I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed.

It doesnt make for a better defense force.
Legions arent all base in the same place all the time, they can clearly divide into task forces if they need to. Their greater amount of resources means they would be better at solving the problems when they get there. And with better manpower they can sustain more casualties and remain combat ready.
Chapters will have to spend a long time to recover from a bloody campaign and as individual groups they lack a unifying outlook at a larger picture

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

It does simplify things as far as being able to better put together something like the Great Crusade, or even defending the current Imperium.
Flip side is that it made things like the Horus Heresy that much easier to pull off.

That's why you have 1000 Marine strong chapters, with just enough naval capacity to get to a battle zone and perform a combat drop, but lacking other ground or air support units and without enough ships to be able to go toe to toe with serious orbital defenses.

I'd think it'd be obvious that the Expiditionary Fleet Legions were superior in effectiveness to the current split Chapter/IG/Navy setup; and the Imperium uses the current inefficient setup precisely because it is less effective. Worlds can be lost and won at retail quantites, but a full revolt of something equivalent to an old Legion would be the death of the Imperium.

Jackster wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, their sons, and the Emperor, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.

Personally, I think the move to chapters was the worst decision they've ever made and one that was made in a time of fear and uncertainty.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Personally, I think the move to chapters was the worst decision they've ever made and one that was made in a time of fear and uncertainty.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

Well to be honest you wouldn't want for another large Astartes uprising, they barely defeated the Astral Claws and their allies in Badab War. Imagine if Astral Claws were Legion now.
Besides, chapter organisation is good for defense. And in case of extreme fighting they can always call upon several chapters to go to war.

You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.

No, it's not irrelevant, because this is an issue that revolves around that event. The Codex Astartes happened because of the Heresy, you can't dismiss it when it doesn't back your point.

A chain of command like you want didn't exist during the Heresy either. Regardless, there is a chain of command that you refuse to see. The High Lords command the Astartes, but the High Lords are far away and aren't concerned with specifics, which is why a greater amount of autonomy is necessary for the Chapters to function.


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BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions.