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iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.

No, it's not irrelevant, because this is an issue that revolves around that event. The Codex Astartes happened because of the Heresy, you can't dismiss it when it doesn't back your point.

A chain of command like you want didn't exist during the Heresy either. Regardless, there is a chain of command that you refuse to see. The High Lords command the Astartes, but the High Lords are far away and aren't concerned with specifics, which is why a greater amount of autonomy is necessary for the Chapters to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions.

That suggest the current chain of command isnt working. And back in heresy and before there was a chain of command. Emperor (Then later Horus) commands the primarchs and primarchs command the legions.

Then there's the same problem. Neither the Emperor or Horus could have individually commanded every Crusade fleet, just like the High Lords don't individually command every Chapter.

Each Legion had their own command structure, just like the Chapters do now, the problems lie with their commanders, and examples of poor coordination between Chapters are few and far between.

iproxtaco wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions.

But those exceptions make all the difference in the world. "For want of a nail, a shoe was lost", and all that.

iproxtaco wrote:Then there's the same problem. Neither the Emperor or Horus could have individually commanded every Crusade fleet, just like the High Lords don't individually command every Chapter.

Each Legion had their own command structure, just like the Chapters do now, the problems lie with their commanders, and examples of poor coordination between Chapters are few and far between.

But at least legions as a more cohesive group has a clearer commands over their companies, rather than individual chapters today each with their own command.
For example, to stop a major invasion or wage a sector wide crusade would require many dozen chapters that would need to coordinate with one another. A task that a single Legion would be able to accomplish with better efficiency.

That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand.

iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

You're assuming that the entirety of the Legion is located at a single base, same as most Chapters are now (notible exception of the Black Templars). Each Legion would have a home planet, or system of planets, but it's forces would be spread out over the area that it is tasked to protect. So Planet X would be the main base, but Legion elements would be spread around Planets A through Q, and if Planet Z needed support, they would contact the nearest base.

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand.

The Legions were rarely in the same place, if ever.


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daveNYC wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

You're assuming that the entirety of the Legion is located at a single base, same as most Chapters are now (notible exception of the Black Templars). Each Legion would have a home planet, or system of planets, but it's forces would be spread out over the area that it is tasked to protect. So Planet X would be the main base, but Legion elements would be spread around Planets A through Q, and if Planet Z needed support, they would contact the nearest base.

I'm actually assuming the opposite. They would be spread out, any arrival of forces equivalent to several dozen Chapters would have to communicate with their command base, then link-up, then travel to the destination.

iproxtaco wrote:

Jackster wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand.

The Legions were rarely in the same place, if ever.

Heh? You mean that the Legions were rarely where they needed to be, or that the Legions were rarely traveling with full Army and Naval assets alongside the more Space Marine-ish craft?

The Legions were rarely ever in one place. There were hundreds, possibly thousands of Crusade fleets, the Legions were spread amongst them. Any significant show of force would require the Legion detachments to link up before travelling to the battle.

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Personally, I think the move to chapters was the worst decision they've ever made and one that was made in a time of fear and uncertainty.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

Well to be honest you wouldn't want for another large Astartes uprising, they barely defeated the Astral Claws and their allies in Badab War. Imagine if Astral Claws were Legion now.
Besides, chapter organisation is good for defense. And in case of extreme fighting they can always call upon several chapters to go to war.

The Badab war was complicated by the fact that two of the participants refused to fight each other and one one of the Imperial side fell to Chaos.

There were in fact (at the time of Horus Rising) some 3800 primary expedition fleets and 60,000 odd secondary ones. Most of which had a contingent of Astartes in some form. They seemed to deploy them in some variation of a company - half a company, several companies, etc. We're talking scores or hundreds of Marines, bolstered by an Army contingent, by the naval elements, and by Mechanicus troops. With that level of integrated, organic cooperation you didn't need a huge number of marines.

Also, in a logistical sense, most expeditionary fleets were not much smaller than a usual naval fleet or a Space Marine Chapter in its entirety, and those are not exactly unwieldy.

As far as 30K marines vs 40K Marines.. I guess that ultimatley depends on your source. 30K gene seed is purerr, the implants are less mutated (and generally have more of its capabilities), but it doesn't neccesarily mean they are better. For example, despite its drawbacks, the genetic flaws of the blood Angels certainly lend them some substantial strength and ferocity in combat. I also suppose it depends on who you recruit to join - even with their enhanced abilities Astartes can differ in capabilitles (some are taller, stronger, tougher, faster, better shots, etc.)

daveNYC wrote:That's why you have 1000 Marine strong chapters, with just enough naval capacity to get to a battle zone and perform a combat drop, but lacking other ground or air support units and without enough ships to be able to go toe to toe with serious orbital defenses.

Except Space Wolves, who get to have more battle barges than several chapters combined, and can fight off an entire Segmentum fleet, because being barbarians on a death world makes for awesome pilots and space admirals.