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I've seen in various places references to the "current" generation of marines not being as good as the ones in the heresy era due to the geneseed being less pure or similar.

Is this commonly written about an excepted as canon?
Is it offset against the fact that the 40k marine has better wargear than the 30k marine?

If it is true, then why don't Chaos marines from the heresy absolutely hammer loyalist ones, given a) they are better marines b) they have the added benefits of chaos gifts.

I figure that there is a slight decay, but slightly improved training and wargear makes it all moot.

40k marines are better then 30k marines.
The answer is simple - there are not many of them like in the Heresy era.
Fewer number means better training can be given to all, since they don't rely on numbers but on actions of a single Marine.
And technology is slightly better then 10.000 years ago.

According to a comment in the Chaos codex, the current marines are worse than the 30k ones. But a Chaos Marine said that, so there's a slight possibility it may not be true.

Brother Coa wrote:40k marines are better then 30k marines.
The answer is simple - there are not many of them like in the Heresy era.
Fewer number means better training can be given to all, since they don't rely on numbers but on actions of a single Marine.
And technology is slightly better then 10.000 years ago.

I disagree

Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah

Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.

Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.

Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?


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Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.

Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah

Take the marines for example. Standard power armor in heresy time was mark 4 - 6 and 7 was rarely used being just out of production. Marines in 41'st millennium usually use mark 7 and new Mark 8 is being introduced into the chapters. And whiel most Chaos equipment is 10.000 years old Astartes equipment is new and upgraded sometimes.
And don't mistaken Mechanicus for their cult, they occasionally invent new things as well as Astartes. Take Land Raider Crusader for example - it's being invented by Black Templars.

Invented is a rather strong word to use for the Land Raider variations. All they really did was swap out some weapons and stick some claymores on the front.

Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.

Correct, the Mechanicus invents and upgrades things all the time.

It just has a very long and stringent testing period before widespread adoption most of the time.

daveNYC wrote:Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.

They have, they just don't bother with them as they're weaker than the current plasma weapons.


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daveNYC wrote:Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.

They have, they just don't bother with them as they're weaker than the current plasma weapons.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.

Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?

Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.

I was to understand that Chaos Marines (at least the ones that WERE 30k marines) believe they're better, and loyalist marines believe that to be so much bull hockey. Honestly, differences in training, numbers, technology, the presence or absence of warp induced mutation, the wind current, and so many other factors, makes it damn near impossible to claim one version of Marine or the other to be 'superior.' If there is a clear-cut division of quality, the margin is so slim as to be easily negatable.

Aren't the things in the "old days" always better? Most of the traitor legionaires are old farts and may favor this view upon the present.

Generally the marines lost the balance the Legions provided as unified force of 20 Legio's. This 'weakens' the astartes.
In quality and training the present is better since the Legions had to speed up recrutement to replenish the great losses in the great crusade.
The training and selection process was improved after the heresy and smaller units ( chapters ) didn't need to take anyone but could be picky.

The major loss was the loss of trust amongst brothers.

The marines themselves are still not a monolithic block of clones but altered humans and have the same chance on fail or greatness as it was during the last 10.000 years.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.

Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?

Of which many were either crippled by extensive campaigns or small to begin with.

Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.

Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.

Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah

Take the marines for example. Standard power armor in heresy time was mark 4 - 6 and 7 was rarely used being just out of production. Marines in 41'st millennium usually use mark 7 and new Mark 8 is being introduced into the chapters. And whiel most Chaos equipment is 10.000 years old Astartes equipment is new and upgraded sometimes.
And don't mistaken Mechanicus for their cult, they occasionally invent new things as well as Astartes. Take Land Raider Crusader for example - it's being invented by Black Templars.

Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385002.page

I think that it might have had more to do with numbers. In 30k a grand company (~1000 marines) would probably attack a particular area of a planet.

Durza wrote:
Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.

Tere are lot of examples, like Horus attaking an Ork Empire. He just rushed his entire Legion and break them, he teleported himself with Terminators at the Ork Warboss main base. Only he and Abbadon l;eft alive while his Legion swarmed the Orks outside.

At Istvaan V 3 Loyal legions rush Traitor one lines before they fall back.

World Eaters loved to orbital droped onto the planet, kill the defence force ass soon as possible and then move away.

My point is Astartes used Guard like tactics in the time of Great Crusade because they have 10.000, 20.000, up to 100.000 marines in Legion. 41'st millennium Astartes use Hit and Run tactics because they are only 1000 of them in a single chapter.

Brother Coa wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385002.page

All that 'proves' is that the Ultramarines were big, and other legions were small.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:
Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.

Tere are lot of examples, like Horus attaking an Ork Empire. He just rushed his entire Legion and break them, he teleported himself with Terminators at the Ork Warboss main base. Only he and Abbadon l;eft alive while his Legion swarmed the Orks outside.

At Istvaan V 3 Loyal legions rush Traitor one lines before they fall back.

World Eaters loved to orbital droped onto the planet, kill the defence force ass soon as possible and then move away.

My point is Astartes used Guard like tactics in the time of Great Crusade because they have 10.000, 20.000, up to 100.000 marines in Legion. 41'st millennium Astartes use Hit and Run tactics because they are only 1000 of them in a single chapter.

No, they had up to 10'000. Only the Ultramarines broke this standard, and most were far below it before the Heresy.

Istvaan was during the Heresy, rendering it invalid as a reply to my point, but it was a special case, using blitz tactics. That's different to swarming them anyway.

Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.

Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.

Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...

STC smesh TC... that doesn't really work... regardless, Iron Men STCs are heretical. So if the Mechanicum decided that one was heretical, they would've tried to destroy it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.

Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...

Technically the ad mech had it on the test runs already and everyone and his dog had a copy of the design so it wasn't possible to deny its existance and function.

1hadhq wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.

Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...

Technically the ad mech had it on the test runs already and everyone and his dog had a copy of the design so it wasn't possible to deny its existance and function.

After the Templars found it and spread it, yes.

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Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.

Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.

The 30K legions were more motivated and less dogmatic in their execution of the tasks at hand. However on a one for one basis, I think there is little or no difference between a 30k and a 40k marine. They are still genetically manipulated "monsters" that would make anyone in the imperium quake in their boots to have on their wrong side.

The Astartes of 30K were more "human". They were either raised on Terra before being turned into Space Marines, or they were compatriots of the Primarchs on their home planets. They were either raised or introduced to the Imperial Truth, rather than the Imperial Creed, so the indoctrination was far less severe.

I'm not sure if that makes them better or worse at war.

40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

Omegus wrote:
I'm not sure if that makes them better or worse at war.

It all depends.
Look at Ultramarines and Emperor's Children civility.
Then look at Night Lords and World Eaters barbarity.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them.

Legion was a better organization than Chapters.

It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

I feel like they shouldmove the story forward on the marines and say the High Lords decided it was time to make a massive founding and when marine crazy.
They make like a few million marines (say it was necissary for all the current threats) and use this as a way to explain the massive number of marine armies we see in gaming stores.
They don't need to make a real big deal out of it. All the main chapters could send 100 marines to go lead a new chapter and thus we have such a wide range of marines we actually see in the real world.