Grey Knights NOT overpriced.

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**candy.man**

Brother SRM wrote:That's because I'm tired of people whining about things that really aren't worth going Chicken Little over.

Not a valid reason to derail the discussion. If you don’t like a particular thread ignore it. There are plenty of other active threads in dakka for you to participate in.

**Thunder555**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Deadshot wrote: I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.

Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

Meanwhile, the Tactical Squad can take a meltagun, plasma gun, missile launcher, lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter, combi-melta/flamer/plasma or flamer. They also have combat tactics and die just as easily as the Grey Knight.

In fact:

Ultramarine Tactical Squad (meltagun and power fist) vs. Grey Knight Strike Squad (both at 10 men):

Ultramarines charging:
Bolt pistols and meltagun fires. 0,75 unsaved wounds from pistols, 0,555(...) wounds from meltagun, rounding total to 1 dead. Let's be generous and assume that the entire Strike Squad has halberds, with the exception of the Daemonhammer Justicar, and that they get hammerhand off.

8 attacks, 4 hits, 2,666(...) rounded to 3 wounds, 3 dead Ultramarines.

Ultramarines swing: 14 attacks, 7 hit, 3,5 wounds, around 1 dead Knight.

Fist and Hammer swings: Fist gets 3 attacks, 1,5 hit and 1 kill after rounding. Hammer swings, 2 attacks, 1,5 rounded to two hits due to master-crafting, 2 more dead. Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights. Cost of dead Ultramarines: 80 points. Cost of dead Grey Knights: 75 points.

Total cost of units: 195 (UM) vs. 255 (Grey Knights).

A unit for 195 points that isn't known for it's fabulous CC prowess can, on the charge, equal the damage output of a pimped out Grey Knight Strike Squad. Replace the Ultramarines with Grey Hunters, Assault Marines or similar and laugh at those who call Grey Knights OP. I see nothing wrong with the fact that a squad for 255 points can win combat vs. one that costs 195 and is inferior in CC due to it's very nature.

Deadshot wrote:they can get Hammers that are also force weapons! And have SBs and the grendaes and all the rest! i have never realaised how OP that was. if I were to wright the codex, Termies would cost at LEAST 60pts. That would be fair. Your opponent gets 1.5 for every one of yours.

They also don't get the crucial piece of equipment that makes Assault Terminators good: storm shields.

Also in fact:

10 man strike squad assaulting Ultramarine squad. Let's not be as generous and take away those halberds and hammer.
Grey knights shoot with 10 stormbolters first. Causing 2 casulties already.
Assault phase. Both sides attack with iniative 4, except powerfist guy. Ultramarines would cause 2 wounds and grey knights would cause 8 wounds with hammerhand active. losing 1 knight in process.
Ultramarines are dead by now. And that's how a 200pts unit killed a 195pts unit

and as for stormshield.. they do get an improved inv save and keep their iniative. with hammerhand they'll get better strength too. Which makes them dangerous to TH/SS guys.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Thunder555 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Deadshot wrote: I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.

Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

Meanwhile, the Tactical Squad can take a meltagun, plasma gun, missile launcher, lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter, combi-melta/flamer/plasma or flamer. They also have combat tactics and die just as easily as the Grey Knight.

In fact:

Ultramarine Tactical Squad (meltagun and power fist) vs. Grey Knight Strike Squad (both at 10 men):

Ultramarines charging:
Bolt pistols and meltagun fires. 0,75 unsaved wounds from pistols, 0,555(...) wounds from meltagun, rounding total to 1 dead. Let's be generous and assume that the entire Strike Squad has halberds, with the exception of the Daemonhammer Justicar, and that they get hammerhand off.

8 attacks, 4 hits, 2,666(...) rounded to 3 wounds, 3 dead Ultramarines.

Ultramarines swing: 14 attacks, 7 hit, 3,5 wounds, around 1 dead Knight.

Fist and Hammer swings: Fist gets 3 attacks, 1,5 hit and 1 kill after rounding. Hammer swings, 2 attacks, 1,5 rounded to two hits due to master-crafting, 2 more dead. Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights. Cost of dead Ultramarines: 80 points. Cost of dead Grey Knights: 75 points.

Total cost of units: 195 (UM) vs. 255 (Grey Knights).

A unit for 195 points that isn't known for it's fabulous CC prowess can, on the charge, equal the damage output of a pimped out Grey Knight Strike Squad. Replace the Ultramarines with Grey Hunters, Assault Marines or similar and laugh at those who call Grey Knights OP. I see nothing wrong with the fact that a squad for 255 points can win combat vs. one that costs 195 and is inferior in CC due to it's very nature.

Deadshot wrote:they can get Hammers that are also force weapons! And have SBs and the grendaes and all the rest! i have never realaised how OP that was. if I were to wright the codex, Termies would cost at LEAST 60pts. That would be fair. Your opponent gets 1.5 for every one of yours.

They also don't get the crucial piece of equipment that makes Assault Terminators good: storm shields.

Also in fact:

10 man strike squad assaulting Ultramarine squad. Let's not be as generous and take away those halberds and hammer.
Grey knights shoot with 10 stormbolters first. Causing 2 casulties already.
Assault phase. Both sides attack with iniative 4, except powerfist guy. Ultramarines would cause 2 wounds and grey knights would cause 8 wounds with hammerhand active. losing 1 knight in process.
Ultramarines are dead by now. And that's how a 200pts unit killed a 195pts unit

And if the Ultramarines charged that unit, THEY would win. Which means it's down to who charges, which in turn mean it's balanced. Thanks for proving my point.

EDIT: I also don't know how you count, but ((21/2)*2/3)=7, not 8. This means the power fist dude gets to fight back. Granted, the UMs will still lose, but they'll take some of the Knights with them.

**Thunder555**

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights.

In the example you made, Ultramarines are still losing the match. Just not as badly.

**Deadshot**

candy.man wrote:I definitely agree that Grey Knights are undercosted but then again, all Matt Ward codices contain grossly undercosted units (e.g. Sanguinary Priests, fast vehicles). I sure miss the old days where all codices had a greater point cost consistency in comparison to today.

It’s very easy to field a large amount of bodies in a 5th Ed GK list which doesn’t sit well with me given how the previous Daemonhunters codex used to operate (elite, small numbers, take all comers, type force). What’s also odd is that given how cheap Strike Squads and Henchmen are, it’s very easy to squeeze in a lot of dakka into a GK list (which was another weakness of the old Daemonhunters book).

Makes me worry how the next CSM codex is going to turn out.

@Deadshot
By God man, use some grammar.

Yeah sorry. I spilled paint water on my keyboard so have to use this one, that has TINY keys, no bigger than a blackberry, and it is REALLY hard to not hit 6 or 7 keys when trying to type. I'll try to keep it under control, but 1 or 2 mistakes may slip through.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to whoever said that I am paying 200pts for my Terms, evry other army is paying that for Termies, QWITHOUT frag Grenades, a FW, better ranged guns than Tac Terms, better Hammer than TH/SS Termies, and Psychic Powers.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Thunder555 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights.

In the example you made, Ultramarines are still losing the match. Just not as badly.

Note how those 5 Ultramarines are 5 points more than the 3 Grey Knights. Also note how a Tactical Squad isn't good at melee at all.
Now let's run a comparison to Grey Hunters. Let's assume that we have 10 Grey Hunters with mark of the wulfen, 2 meltaguns and a wolf standard. That's 205 points.

On the charge:

2 melta shots, 8 bolt pistols. 1 melta hits, 1 melta wound after rounding, 4 bolt pistol hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead after rounding. 2 dead to start with.

24 attacks, 14 hits (reroll 1's), 7,58333(...) wounds, which means 3 unsaved wounds after rounding. The guy with the Mark of the Wulfen strikes with an average 4 attacks, 2 of which wounds. If I haven't failed with the annoying calculations, there's a 38% chance of getting a rend, which we round down to 0. These 2 wounds will, after rounding, kill another Grey Knight.

The Grey Knights strike simultaneously with 9 attacks, 4,5 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Grey Hunters.

The Power Fist strikes, 3 attacks, 1,75 hits which after rounding is 2 dead Grey Knights. All in all, 5 dead Grey Knights versus 3 dead Grey Hunters. Glory to Russ!

**Rocky1**

And to whoever said that I am paying 200pts for my Terms, evry other army is paying that for Termies, QWITHOUT frag Grenades, a FW, better ranged guns than Tac Terms, better Hammer than TH/SS Termies, and Psychic Powers.

If you bothered to do the math on it you would see TH/SS termies beat GK termies in melee any day.There is a huge difference between a 3++ and a 4++.And most people run halberds on their termies so it's only a 5++.

**Thunder555**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Thunder555 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights.

In the example you made, Ultramarines are still losing the match. Just not as badly.

Note how those 5 Ultramarines are 5 points more than the 3 Grey Knights. Also note how a Tactical Squad isn't good at melee at all.
Now let's run a comparison to Grey Hunters. Let's assume that we have 10 Grey Hunters with mark of the wulfen, 2 meltaguns and a wolf standard. That's 205 points.

On the charge:

2 melta shots, 8 bolt pistols. 1 melta hits, 1 melta wound after rounding, 4 bolt pistol hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead after rounding. 2 dead to start with.

24 attacks, 14 hits (reroll 1's), 7,58333(...) wounds, which means 3 unsaved wounds after rounding. The guy with the Mark of the Wulfen strikes with an average 4 attacks, 2 of which wounds. If I haven't failed with the annoying calculations, there's a 38% chance of getting a rend, which we round down to 0. These 2 wounds will, after rounding, kill another Grey Knight.

The Grey Knights strike simultaneously with 9 attacks, 4,5 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Grey Hunters.

The Power Fist strikes, 3 attacks, 1,75 hits which after rounding is 2 dead Grey Knights. All in all, 5 dead Grey Knights versus 3 dead Grey Hunters. Glory to Russ!

what about following assault phases? I don't have a Space Wolves codex to do this with.

**nosferatu1001**

LOL, not this again

SS are NOT undercosted, because you utterly fail at opp costs. You HAVE to pay for all of that, even if all you want the unit to do is castle up on an objective. 25% more for a unit that dies as well as a normal tac marine? No thanks.

TH/SS termies rape GKs, every time. Firstly you cannot shoot them effectively on the way in, as that 3++ is active ALL the time vs a 5++ / 4++ in cc if youve taken the sword - which noone does. At best you need a rad nade IC in there and then you MUST get HHand off, otherwise you dont cause enough 3++ saves to drop them before they kill you

The only undercosted units in the codex are henchmen and DCA, the former because you only have to take 3 and get to unlock a cheap but good dedicated transport, and can still take melta, and the latter because nothing with that many PW attacks should be that cheap.

And thats it, really. GK, if you actually USE GK, dont do antitank outside of S8 psyriflemen - they need to do it in CC. Meaning you lose, as the squad inside hops out and kills you next turn.

SS have one use: warp quake. Thats it.

**Thunder555**

nosferatu1001 wrote:LOL, not this again

SS are NOT undercosted, because you utterly fail at opp costs. You HAVE to pay for all of that, even if all you want the unit to do is castle up on an objective. 25% more for a unit that dies as well as a normal tac marine? No thanks.

apparently how well the unit kills doesn't matter? also, they cost only 10-15% more. 90pts vs 100pts when having just 5 guys and 170 vs 200pts when full squad.

Also.. here's a funny thing to think about
tactical squad of 5 guys with stormbolters and powerweapons (using the costs listed for sergeant since he's the only one who could normally take them), without psychic stuff, psyk-out grenades and aegis etc. would cost 215pts. Slight difference with GK?

**ZombieJoe**

I had an amusing game against GK the other day. My opponent brought ten pallies and ther brother hood of you're dead banner. I had two flying hive tyrants that I just baited them with. They deepstriked down and I lured them to the other side of the table while the rest of my army came up and devoured all his other toys. Mean while I never engaged his termies

**nosferatu1001**

20pts per model vs 16 is not 10-15% more. A strike squad barely kills more marines than a tac squad, that same tac squad that gets a FREE heavy weapon with more range than anything a GK SS can take.

Again, your "analysis" is stupid. It misses, yet again, that YOU DONT PAY sarge optional prices when things are mandatory. Or perhaps you would like to cost up Banshees and find that they all should cost 55points?

You fail at basic games design.

**Deadshot**

I just think they are far too underpriced. they should be MSU, but elite. They die easily, so they aren't elite, like that, but they are cheap.

Tghey have possibly the cheapest HQ out there. Inquisistors at 25pts. Outrageous.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Deadshot wrote:I just think they are far too underpriced. they should be MSU, but elite. They die easily, so they aren't elite, like that, but they are cheap.

Tghey have possibly the cheapest HQ out there. Inquisistors at 25pts. Outrageous.

Enjoy your T3 3 wound 5+ save HQ without wargear.

**Deadshot**

I will enjoy the Henchmen he can get me. And the compulsary HQ so you can fit in more awesome stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, I am NOT getting them becuase I want to win. I have always wanted to get them, even wirth Daemonhunters, but the models being all metal put me off. Now that they are all plastic, and ever since I saw them in the back of the Feb WD, I have known they are my next army.

And I am not WAAC. I want to enjoy this game. Sure, winning is fun, but winning is what you play a game for, otherwise it would be one of those crappy kids competitions where even 2000000039th place gets an award.

**Remulus**

Funny, I have never read anywhere of the grey knight strike squads being overpriced, over powered for their point cost maybe...

So this thread is kinda pointless

**nosferatu1001**

Deadshot - except theyre not underpriced. That 25% more expensive model dies as easily, and has as many attacks as a tactical squad, and doesnt have access to the free upgrades of a tac squad.

Yes, they can have a 25pt HQ, but thats a fairly poor HQ when HQ are some of the best force multipleirs in the codex. By far. Its actually their contested slot, when you move away from coteaz spam.

**Cryage**

Strike squads are hands down best troops ive used/seen. Power weapons by default w/ ASSAULT 2 bolter instead of rapid fire? Yes please! lol

**iproxtaco**

Deadshot wrote:I just think they are far too underpriced. they should be MSU, but elite. They die easily, so they aren't elite, like that, but they are cheap.

Tghey have possibly the cheapest HQ out there. Inquisistors at 25pts. Outrageous.

You really aren't looking at the whole picture, are you? Concentrating on one unit at a time causes exactly this kind of pointless discussion. Strike Squads aren't cheap. Their points cost is more than a regular squad of Marines, and yet it's already been proven in this thread that they do little better than a squad that costs less. Are regular tac squads underpriced? No, they aren't.

Oh, and good luck doing well with that supposed 25 point Inquisitor.

**Deadshot**

Its not the inquisitor, its the fact that with him, I have filled my HQ slot, so can afford more units in low point games, and include Henchmen. I understand it is not great, but by god its annoying.

**candy.man**

Deadshot has hit the nail on the head. The purpose of taking an inquisitor without upgrades is so that you can squeeze in more stuff in your army. The GK book has a lot of cheap toys and considering Crusader/DSA are 15pts each, the points it takes to tool up your inquisitor can easily be used to squeeze in 3-4 more henchmen into his warband. Xenos inquisitors are cheap source for providing hammerhand and crazy grenades to a pre existing unit, making it super killy.

@iproxtaco
GKSS are cheap because you’re failing to take into account their ability to deepstrike. A 10 man tac squad with a transport comes in at a similar price to a standard 10 man GKSS.

**AlmightyWalrus**

candy.man wrote:Deadshot has hit the nail on the head. The purpose of taking an inquisitor without upgrades is so that you can squeeze in more stuff in your army. The GK book has a lot of cheap toys and considering Crusader/DSA are 15pts each, the points it takes to tool up your inquisitor can easily be used to squeeze in 3-4 more henchmen into his warband. Xenos inquisitors are cheap source for providing hammerhand and crazy grenades to a pre existing unit, making it super killy.

@iproxtaco
GKSS are cheap because you’re failing to take into account their ability to deepstrike. A 10 man tac squad with a transport comes in at a similar price to a standard 10 man GKSS.

About the bolded part, you're not getting that for 25 points. You pay quite a bit extra to unlock that stuff.

And transports don't mishap, can contest objectives on their own, often come with good weapons and protect the guys inside. Claiming that GKSS are OP because they can deep strike is silly, to say the least. There's a reason why no one deep strikes TH/SS Terminators.

**iproxtaco**

candy.man wrote:
@iproxtaco
GKSS are cheap because you’re failing to take into account their ability to deepstrike. A 10 man tac squad with a transport comes in at a similar price to a standard 10 man GKSS.

Oh wow, deepstriking?! That's amazing for a footslogging unit that needs to get into CC! The transport is better, in pretty much every way. Like Walrus said, there's a reason you take predominantly CC units in a transport.

**candy.man**

@AlmightyWalrus
At no point did I say that they were OP. I said they were cheap in my previous post and underpriced in my other posts. Try not to jump to conclusions when you post.

In regards to your other points:

1. You don’t pay too much extra for hammer hand and crazy grenades. The xenos inquisitor still comes in well under 100pts after purchasing them, still making him a bargain. Cheap inquisitors are one of the reasons why GK are very good at low points games.

2. Your point regarding transports is not a valid point as it is a tactical preference as one could say rhinos/razorbacks are ineffective because it makes an IG player’s life a lot easier. If your opinion was true than DOA BA and termicide spam CSM would be invalid tactics. Also you forget that mystics and servo skulls make deepstriking GKS units viable.

3. GKSS aren’t a CC unit. They are a 24” range harassment unit. Cheap Str5 bolters and cheap psycannons/psilencers are the reasons why. You deepstrike the unit, harass enemy units at 24” range and assault if needs be with their str5 power weapons.

**Noir**

candy.man wrote:

3. GKSS aren’t a CC unit. They are a 24” range harassment unit. Cheap Str5 bolters and cheap psycannons/psilencers are the reasons why. You deepstrike the unit, harass enemy units at 24” range and assault if needs be with their str5 power weapons.

Why, Interceptor are 10x better for this with no DS scatter issue. Look I place both the flame templetes right were they will hit the most people every time.

**iproxtaco**

It's valid. You could have had a case if you hadn't cited two examples of tactics that work due to their own specific reasons. DOA BA works because of DOA. Termicide works because the Terminators are expendable, it's almost their objective.

**Jaon**

What the op fails to understand is that you don't necessarily want all those upgrades.

Id be happier with a 2point up from tags and just have storm bolters and the psychic powers. No matter how powerful these guys are, they are still a space marine with a 3+ save. They are quite squishy and are priced at a decent enough price so that you can't spam them. They also don't have any long range AT options, and their actual Melee weapon upgrades cost A LOT OF POINTS. They have no range above 24', there is literally nothing overpriced about them.

I play them and I win most friendly games, but I hardly use GKSS.

**candy.man**

@Noir
GKSS are cheaper than interceptors. A GKSS marines costs 20pts where an interceptor costs 26pts. GKSS can claim objects and can fill mandatory troop requirements. Both aren’t mutually exclusive like your post suggests and a good list would make use of both. In fact there’s a player in Dakka to runs a list using this exact setup.

@Ipraxcto
You’re forgetting that the Grey Knights codex also have access to servo skulls and mystics to prevent scatter. A cheap inquisitor can bring both of these, allowing a GKSS to function at maximum potential.

**Grey Templar**

Even with no scatter, Deep Striking isn't really the optimal thing to be doing because you will be nicly bunched up for templating, exposed to a round of shooting before you can do any CC damage, and your enemy gets to react to your arrival before you get into CC.

Servo Skulls also go away when someone comes too close, so the enemy can possably get rid of the skulls before you get to use them.

**iproxtaco**

Uhuh, yeah, but how much more does it then cost you have the same effect? A lot more points, is the answer, and an HQ slot.