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@Grey Templar
You’re missing a key point in that whilst deepstriking does have its issues, what tactic doesn’t?

No one is saying that a Deepstriking squad is superior to a transport based squad. No they are not but rather a different tactic. GKSS do not have to pay extra for the deepstrike ability like other MEQ forces do and at 4pts over a tac marine, they are a bargain for what they can do (which is the point the OP was making). The point I was making earlier is that a deepstriking GKSS unit is viable, not useless which was the point other posters were trying to make. There’s been too much min maxing theory hammer posted in this thread.

As a side note, too many negative posters are getting wrapped up in talks of “power level” when the topic of this thread is to discuss how cheap/cost effective some of the GK units are versus other 5th edition codices. Grey Templar made an excellent point earlier in the thread about GK being costed under a cheaper model to drive sales and this is probably the core reason why. I reckon if GK and BA were written at the same time, the point costings in the book would be dramatically different.

Deadshot wrote: I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.



Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

15/10 troll effort.
That was simply amazing.

You forgot ATSKNF though. It's nice to never worry about sweeping advance or count as standing still after regrouping.

Jaon wrote:What the op fails to understand is that you don't necessarily want all those upgrades.

Id be happier with a 2point up from tags and just have storm bolters and the psychic powers. No matter how powerful these guys are, they are still a space marine with a 3+ save. They are quite squishy and are priced at a decent enough price so that you can't spam them. They also don't have any long range AT options, and their actual Melee weapon upgrades cost A LOT OF POINTS. They have no range above 24', there is literally nothing overpriced about them.

I play them and I win most friendly games, but I hardly use GKSS.

This is a good post. They're great value on paper compared to standard tactical Marines or what have you, but you don't always want all those baubles.

nosferatu1001 wrote: 20pts per model vs 16 is not 10-15% more.

Try 100pts for 5 models versus 90pts for 5. And with full squads it's 200pts versus 170pts. After all, that's their real cost.

nosferatu1001 wrote: A strike squad barely kills more marines than a tac squad, that same tac squad that gets a FREE heavy weapon with more range than anything a GK SS can take.

They just shoot more and in close combat they ignore armor saves. Also they have +1S unless they fail psychic test. Which happens every 12th time average.
You're right with tacticals getting a heavy weapon, which they can shoot only when they stand still. Grey knights do get cheap rending 24" autocannon which is either assault 2 or heavy 4. But upgrades are not an issue.

Sidenote:
when standing in the middle of the table, model with 24" range does cover 52,3% of regular 72" x 48" table. Doesn't look so bad.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, your "analysis" is stupid. It misses, yet again, that YOU DONT PAY sarge optional prices when things are mandatory. Or perhaps you would like to cost up Banshees and find that they all should cost 55points?

Of course I won't pay those points for tac marines since they cannot even have them. It was just an example about the point differences. Apparently you missed the point completely. Here's a "fixed" version following the actual rules:
Tactical squad with 4 marines and sergeant. Add stormbolter and power sword to sergeant and you'll have 115pts while grey knights have 5 force weapons and 5 stormbolters and all the extras.
That's why Strike Squads are way too cheap. Or tactical marines in other books are very overpriced.

But deep striking SS are really good against gunlines. A smart Guard or Tau player, or even cropn, but not so much, with powerful, longer rnaged weapons, will deploy along the back line, because GK have a threatening range of 24+6". Deep[ striking you strike squad helps insure that you get all those Str 5 SBs and Psycannons in range quickly, and then provide a target tio take your opponent's fire power.

candy.man wrote:@AlmightyWalrus
At no point did I say that they were OP. I said they were cheap in my previous post and underpriced in my other posts. Try not to jump to conclusions when you post.

In regards to your other points:

1. You don’t pay too much extra for hammer hand and crazy grenades. The xenos inquisitor still comes in well under 100pts after purchasing them, still making him a bargain. Cheap inquisitors are one of the reasons why GK are very good at low points games.

Point still stands, you have a T3 HQ with a 5+ save.

candy.man wrote:@AlmightyWalrus
At no point did I say that they were OP. I said they were cheap in my previous post and underpriced in my other posts. Try not to jump to conclusions when you post.

You're defending the OP in a thread where the topic is how undercosted and OP the Grey Knights are. QED.

candy.man wrote:
2. Your point regarding transports is not a valid point as it is a tactical preference as one could say rhinos/razorbacks are ineffective because it makes an IG player’s life a lot easier. If your opinion was true than DOA BA and termicide spam CSM would be invalid tactics. Also you forget that mystics and servo skulls make deepstriking GKS units viable.

One would be wrong then. Did you seriously just make the argument that rhinoes and razorbacks are bad because IG players have a lot of AT firepower?

As for DoA and Termicide, as has been stated already, DoA works because the majority of the army drops down simultaneously (simultaneous, devestating defensive deep strikes anyone? ), has FNP and meltaguns and scatters 1D6 anywhere on the table, as opposed to the predictable radius of a servo skull. Termicide squads work because they're cheap as chips and will almost always make an impression.

Deadshot wrote:But deep striking SS are really good against gunlines. A smart Guard or Tau player, or even cropn, but not so much, with powerful, longer rnaged weapons, will deploy along the back line, because GK have a threatening range of 24+6". Deep striking you strike squad helps insure that you get all those Str 5 SBs and Psycannons in range quickly, and then provide a target tio take your opponent's fire power.

So you deep strike your SS in (nevermind that they might not even show up until turn 5 unless you get a Grand Master), kill one vehicle or other target and then eat every AP3 weapon in the entire army while the long range stuff keeps hammering away at the rest of your army. Good job.

Speaking of ketchup, how come so many are brushing off the fact that tactical squads can have heavy weapons? They're so much better at holding backfield objectives that it is silly.

Thunder - since you still dont get it, try 20 points vs 15 point chaos marines. 33% more worth it yet?

OR how about a full squad of 10, CS into 2. You're not paying 90 points for 5 then, are you.

Sigh.

I love people stating inqs are "cheap" because the upgrades only get you up to about 100 points. So a 400% increase in points cost is "cheap" but a 25 - 33% one isnt? And ALL those mystics I'm seeing in actual armies that win tournaments? Theyre all over the place! My gods, noones ever thought of them before! The sheer power everyone has been missing to ..... deepstrike.... footslogging marines with no melta weaponry into a gun line!

DS SS are TERRIBLE against gunlines. So you take servo skulls to reduce your scatter to manageable levels - those same servo skulls that a) cannot be placed in your opponents Deployment zones (you know, where most gunline armies live) and b) die when a grot moves within 6" of them? THOSE servo skulls, THOSE are what youre planning on controlling DS with?

Side note: deploying 12" in and moving 12" first turn with a rhino puts you into the middle of the table, and with disembark you can cover more than half the table with 24" range. Deepstriking gets them into range SLOWER than simply putting them in a vehicle, make them more vulnerable to return fire (especially if you want them shooting) and leaves them slower moving. Gee, sounds a GREAT option doesnt it.

Thunder - it was a crap example using flawed logic, hence my comments about banshees. Upgrade items do NOT cost the same as MANDATORY items, ever because the MANDATORY items you are stuck paying for *even if you dont want them*.

And that is the point you are entirely missing - the opportunity cost. SM can take cheap Scouts if they want - GK cant, barring taking another HQ (that isnt as good a multiplier with GK squads as the other HQs) when HQ is their most contended slot. GK SS always pay the same, even when their abilities get hooded / RoW away (Ld9 vs Ld10 psyker looks pretty bad, and HtH is when youre most likely within range) or are, frankly, useless.

You know that free heavy weapon you dismiss so readily with tacs? Makes them a VERY effective objective sitter! Who'd have thought having >24" range would be useful! Side note: 24" range is useless when you're playing bore-draw and your objective is in a corner. 48" missile range isnt. SHocking, I know.

Also - you entirely missed that, in a straight up fight, the SS only just beats out the tac squad - if they charge. And the SS costs significantly more, in typical load out. For a A1 marine.

So no, saying SS are undercosted is not valid. It doesnt even nearly hold water. If they were 18 points each? Yes, that would be undercosted. But they arent.