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I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.



Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

I've never heard of them being overpriced. This thread is pointless.

You would think that in a mega MEQ army, the models would cost near 30pts per model, so you have balance, but no. I finally understand, just how OP they are. I am definatly getting them!

Deadshot wrote: I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.



Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

Never noticed. Or the 10+ other threads start the same ways.

I've never heard that complaint either, though I've heard of some units and wargear options being "uncompetitive" Is that what you mean?

Deadshot wrote:You would think that in a mega MEQ army, the models would cost near 30pts per model, so you have balance, but no. I finally understand, just how OP they are. I am definatly getting them!

They are balanced. People who rave on about how overpowered some armies that really aren't overpowered are deluded. Go and fill out an army with Strike Squads, give them all upgrades, see how well you do at 1500.

No I mean that for FOUR, 4 pts, you get a FW, psychic poweers, replace your bolter with a Stormbolter and get far better options, along with the abilty to reduce Daemons/Psykers to Int, and make enermy psykers take -1 to tests.

Evcen worse is the Interceptors. they are jut the same. They get a FAR better CCW than Assault Squdas, a better gun with longer range and twice the shots, the above mentioned abilties, but their JP allows them a one use 30" move, all for 8pts more!? That is outrageous.

All I am sayinbg is that you get a lot more than what you pay for.

Even Terminators!

They cost the same as regular Termies, but gain Frag, Krak and Psykout Grenades, replace their PF with FWs, gain the psychic abilties, are scoring TROOPS! All for the same price as regualr Terminators?

iproxtaco wrote:

Deadshot wrote:You would think that in a mega MEQ army, the models would cost near 30pts per model, so you have balance, but no. I finally understand, just how OP they are. I am definatly getting them!

They are balanced. People who rave on about how overpowered some armies that really aren't overpowered are deluded. Go and fill out an army with Strike Squads, give them all upgrades, see how well you do at 1500.

Its not that strike squads are amazing, but for TROOPS, they are far superior to any other armies in terms of value / points.

They replace their HF optin for an Incinerator option, which is a HF with +1 Str, and Assault cannon for their Psycannon, which is the same but has +1 Str. they lose out on CML, but normally you take Assauklt termies.

they can get Hammers that are also force weapons! And have SBs and the grendaes and all the rest! i have never realaised how OP that was. if I were to wright the codex, Termies would cost at LEAST 60pts. That would be fair. Your opponent gets 1.5 for every one of yours.

Deadshot wrote:No I mean that for FOUR, 4 pts, you get a FW, psychic poweers, replace your bolter with a Stormbolter and get far better options, along with the abilty to reduce Daemons/Psykers to Int, and make enermy psykers take -1 to tests.

Evcen worse is the Interceptors. they are jut the same. They get a FAR better CCW than Assault Squdas, a better gun with longer range and twice the shots, the above mentioned abilties, but their JP allows them a one use 30" move, all for 8pts more!? That is outrageous.

All I am sayinbg is that you get a lot more than what you pay for.

Even Terminators!

They cost the same as regular Termies, but gain Frag, Krak and Psykout Grenades, replace their PF with FWs, gain the psychic abilties, are scoring TROOPS! All for the same price as regualr Terminators?

And? You aren't going to be filling up on huge numbers of them, are you?

Hell yeah! that's ALL I'm fgetting from Santa this year.


Just for the record that was a figure of speech.

4 points may not sound like much, but its actually a significant cost increase over a vanilla marine. a 25% price increase to be precise.

Really i think looking at one or two choices in a list and saying they are OP is rather stupid. You have to look at the synergy of the codex/army as a whole. Sure they have awsome troops but what AS AN ARMY do they loose for having those awesome troops. Im sure you will find many things to balance them out.

No I dont own them, dont want to own them, but I have played them, and they seemed fine to me.

Just making general statements about an army from a few choices is wrong.

Deadshot wrote: I had a look at the GK codex and saw the price for a regular GK in a Strioke Squad. He costs 4 pts more than his Tac squad equvilent in C:SM. Those 4 pts give him the same profile but adds ther following.



Psykout Grenades
NFW
upgrades Bolter to SB
Gains Hammerhand, Warp Quake, psychic powers, and Aegis
options for a Psycannon
can take a N Daeon Hammer, warding Stave, Flachions, or Halberd
The Justcar can make his weapons MC, unlike the Sgt.

Meanwhile, the Tactical Squad can take a meltagun, plasma gun, missile launcher, lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter, combi-melta/flamer/plasma or flamer. They also have combat tactics and die just as easily as the Grey Knight.

In fact:

Ultramarine Tactical Squad (meltagun and power fist) vs. Grey Knight Strike Squad (both at 10 men):

Ultramarines charging:
Bolt pistols and meltagun fires. 0,75 unsaved wounds from pistols, 0,555(...) wounds from meltagun, rounding total to 1 dead. Let's be generous and assume that the entire Strike Squad has halberds, with the exception of the Daemonhammer Justicar, and that they get hammerhand off.

8 attacks, 4 hits, 2,666(...) rounded to 3 wounds, 3 dead Ultramarines.

Ultramarines swing: 14 attacks, 7 hit, 3,5 wounds, around 1 dead Knight.

Fist and Hammer swings: Fist gets 3 attacks, 1,5 hit and 1 kill after rounding. Hammer swings, 2 attacks, 1,5 rounded to two hits due to master-crafting, 2 more dead. Total tally: 5 dead Ultramarines vs. 3 dead Grey Knights. Cost of dead Ultramarines: 80 points. Cost of dead Grey Knights: 75 points.

Total cost of units: 195 (UM) vs. 255 (Grey Knights).

A unit for 195 points that isn't known for it's fabulous CC prowess can, on the charge, equal the damage output of a pimped out Grey Knight Strike Squad. Replace the Ultramarines with Grey Hunters, Assault Marines or similar and laugh at those who call Grey Knights OP. I see nothing wrong with the fact that a squad for 255 points can win combat vs. one that costs 195 and is inferior in CC due to it's very nature.

Deadshot wrote:they can get Hammers that are also force weapons! And have SBs and the grendaes and all the rest! i have never realaised how OP that was. if I were to wright the codex, Termies would cost at LEAST 60pts. That would be fair. Your opponent gets 1.5 for every one of yours.

They also don't get the crucial piece of equipment that makes Assault Terminators good: storm shields.

Deadshot wrote:They replace their HF optin for an Incinerator option, which is a HF with +1 Str, and Assault cannon for their Psycannon, which is the same but has +1 Str. they lose out on CML, but normally you take Assauklt termies.

they can get Hammers that are also force weapons! And have SBs and the grendaes and all the rest! i have never realaised how OP that was. if I were to wright the codex, Termies would cost at LEAST 60pts. That would be fair. Your opponent gets 1.5 for every one of yours.

And no DT LR. So it protect them so the get across the feild or take Dread and watch the Termies die before the do anything. Look at the whole picture, as in the whole army not one unit at a time, you know how the book was writing.

Deadshot wrote:Hell yeah! that's ALL I'm fgetting from Santa this year.


Just for the record that was a figure of speech.

I know, and for the record, what I said was rhetorical. You aren't going to be filling up on huge numbers of Terminators, because they cost at least 200 points for five.

I definitely agree that Grey Knights are undercosted but then again, all Matt Ward codices contain grossly undercosted units (e.g. Sanguinary Priests, fast vehicles). I sure miss the old days where all codices had a greater point cost consistency in comparison to today.

It’s very easy to field a large amount of bodies in a 5th Ed GK list which doesn’t sit well with me given how the previous Daemonhunters codex used to operate (elite, small numbers, take all comers, type force). What’s also odd is that given how cheap Strike Squads and Henchmen are, it’s very easy to squeeze in a lot of dakka into a GK list (which was another weakness of the old Daemonhunters book).

Makes me worry how the next CSM codex is going to turn out.

@Deadshot
By God man, use some grammar.

Actually, think of GKs as being the new standard for costing. This makes all the older codices over-priced with their unit costs. GW appears to be shifting the points to a lower cost per model, to encourage larger armies and thus more purchasing.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, think of GKs as being the new standard for costing. This makes all the older codices over-priced with their unit costs. GW appears to be shifting the points to a lower cost per model, to encourage larger armies and thus more purchasing.

+1 to this.

Their all gearing up for 6th edition...thus the new codexs aren't overpowered...the other ones are underpowered....

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, think of GKs as being the new standard for costing. This makes all the older codices over-priced with their unit costs. GW appears to be shifting the points to a lower cost per model, to encourage larger armies and thus more purchasing.

There in lies the core problem of the issue. You can’t cost a new faction under a different model without creating power creep. I’ll also agree that with the above that the decision to do so was probably more of a marketing decision rather than a balance decision.

Grey Knights are overpowered and underpriced! I can't beat them ever!
*battlecannon kills 200 points a turn and doesn't have to worry about getting shot at from long range*

Brother SRM wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered and underpriced! I can't beat them ever!
*battlecannon kills 200 points a turn and doesn't have to worry about getting shot at from long range*

I'll be sure to put those in all my ork lists!

Brother SRM wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered and underpriced! I can't beat them ever!
*battlecannon kills 200 points a turn and doesn't have to worry about getting shot at from long range*

You’ve missed the point of the thread.

The discussion is about GK units being undercosted in comparison to the point costings in other 5th edition codices, not about how they can be beaten. It is possible for a codex to be unbalanced and still be beatable on the table.

Judging by the tone of some of your recent posts in similar threads, all I can recommend is for you to avoid threads like these if you don’t like them.

candy.man wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered and underpriced! I can't beat them ever!
*battlecannon kills 200 points a turn and doesn't have to worry about getting shot at from long range*

You’ve missed the point of the thread.

The discussion is about GK units being undercosted in comparison to the point costings in other 5th edition codices, not about how they can be beaten. It is possible for a codex to be unbalanced and still be beatable on the table.

Judging by the tone of some of your recent posts in similar threads, all I can recommend is for you to avoid threads like these if you don’t like them.

The main problem is that threads like these pop up at least once per weak. Gets pretty tiring after a while.

Actually, this topic has been popping twice a day recently. I hate the GK codex and even I'M getting sick and tired of them

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, think of GKs as being the new standard for costing. This makes all the older codices over-priced with their unit costs. GW appears to be shifting the points to a lower cost per model, to encourage larger armies and thus more purchasing.

I don't see how you can say that considering GK and the shown lists for Necron on the GW site showing mid to low price for the necron armies.

So wait.... You think GK are OP cheddar, so that's your reason for going out and buying them?

WAAC much?

Personally, I find GKSS to be extremely underwhelming for their cost. I would describe them as probably the worst of the MEQ troops units, inferior to even Chaos Marines-- to say nothing of Grey Hunters or Tacs. Then again, one great part about this hobby is that people can run what they like, and if it works for them, great! If you think Grey Knight Strike Squads are good, by all means run them-- but whether or not something is "overpriced" will ultimately be decided in the eye of the beholder.

Namica wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, think of GKs as being the new standard for costing. This makes all the older codices over-priced with their unit costs. GW appears to be shifting the points to a lower cost per model, to encourage larger armies and thus more purchasing.

I don't see how you can say that considering GK and the shown lists for Necron on the GW site showing mid to low price for the necron armies.

Do you mean mid to low points cost or low $ cost?


Low $ cost is still going to encourage people to buy the army, people with existing armies will buy all the new shiny stuff, and people with low money will buy an elite low model count army.

I mean how many people went out and bought the GK codex, Draigo, and 3 boxs of GK terminators and called it good? Even though that particular build is a horriblely uncompetitive list people still bought it because it was cheap relative to other armies and their finished cost.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered and underpriced! I can't beat them ever!
*battlecannon kills 200 points a turn and doesn't have to worry about getting shot at from long range*

I'll be sure to put those in all my ork lists!

The only thing in a GK army that you really need to worry about as Orks are Purifiers, and they die as easily as any other Marines. Weight of fire will waste them. Paladins can generally just be avoided, like most deathstars. Grey Knight Strike Squads are not that much more expensive than Space Marines, but they only have one attack. 10 power weapon attacks is not scary to an Ork boy at all. The only army I would be scared of GK at all with are one of my Marine armies, and even then that depends on my list.

GK die like regular Marines, there's just not as many of them. The only reason people think they're overpowered is because they're flavor of the month and the number of bandwagon jumpers is disproportionate now to how many there will be once things even out. That and Daemonhunters used to be pretty awful so the new codex is comparatively amazing. I won't say it's a bad codex by any stretch, but most of what people whine about are things that can easily be avoided or killed with what you already have. The only things that are really worrisome to everybody are tons of henchmen squads with meltaguns, death cult assassins/crusader squads, psybolt ammo on riflemen and razorbacks (expensive and fragile), and purifiers if you run a horde army. Just about everything they have can be countered reasonably well if your army list doesn't solely consist of tactical Marines and assault Marines.

candy.man wrote:Judging by the tone of some of your recent posts in similar threads, all I can recommend is for you to avoid threads like these if you don’t like them.

That's because I'm tired of people whining about things that really aren't worth going Chicken Little over. I will say that having stormbolters, psychic powers, and power weapons for like 5 points more than Tactical Marines is a great deal on paper, but then you realize they've only got one attack each, are still T4 3+, and have strength 4 AP5 guns.