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Ghaz wrote:Because what you are doing requires the scarabs to be created sequentially. They join the existing unit all at once.

A couple of things to point out:

1) The Spyder rule doesn't mention the scarabs are created simultaneously. The rules state at the start of the Movement phase a Spyder can create a scarab. Nothing states this all happens all at once, each Spyder is permitted to create a scarab. Yes, this happens at the start of the phase but not necessarily simultaneously. I could alternate Spyders from different units creating scarabs for instance.

2) It doesn't matter if the scarabs are created sequentially or simultaneously. Either way gets the scarab models into unit coherency immediately. Do note, there is some level of abstraction to the game and the notion of "instantaneously". The player is not required to actually place all the scarabs on the board instantaneously, if the notion of the scarab creation is meant to be instantaneous then, by normal game play, once all the scarabs are placed on the table the models have been "instantaneously" created.

That means you can't use a base of scarabs you've created in the same turn to determine coherency.

Please provide a rule, with page number, that supports this claim. The Spyder Scarab Hive rule specifically states the created scarab can move and act normally the turn it is created.

Avatar's got you on that one. Take reanimation protocols for example, THAT rule works as you're suggesting Ghaz. Specifically with the phrasing "placed in coherency with a model from its unit that has not itself returned through Reanimation Protocols this phase."

If the spyder rule was phrased as the above, you'd be entirely correct. However, it is not.

Sorry, but you only have one 'start of the Necron Movement phase'. If you do anything else, then its no longer the start of the Movement phase, is it? No. Hence they are created simultaneously as that is the only way that they can meet the requirement of the start of the Movement phase.

I should grow some extra arms then? Kind of hard to place 3 scarabs at the exact same second on the board.

They are all CREATED simultaneously, as in one set of dice thrown for the unit of spyders, but the only restriction on them that is that they are placed in coherency with a unit of scarabs within 6"

You'll notice that when they wanted to stop this behavior (ie. in reanimation protocols), they used substantially different wording for almost the exact same effect.

In game terms they are created and then placed simultaneously. How many arms you have to place the models does not change the rules. You only have one start of the Necron Movement phase.

Ghaz wrote:Sorry, but you only have one 'start of the Necron Movement phase'. If you do anything else, then its no longer the start of the Movement phase, is it? No. Hence they are created simultaneously as that is the only way that they can meet the requirement of the start of the Movement phase.

The actual physical act of placing the models on the table obviously isn't instantaneous. The rules are abstract and as such the notion of instantaneous is in terms of the game not the physical world. Placing the models around the unit or in one long line all happens simultaneously in game terms.

However, the Spyder's rule doesn't state the Scarabs are all created at once. The rules state each Spyder can create a Scarab and each rolls a D6 when the Scarab is created to determine if any damage is done generating the Scarab. The Scarab is then placed in unit coherency with the Scarab unit. Again, nothing in the rule states I can't alternate between Spyder units creating Scarab from each Spyder.

In the end, it doesn't matter if the Scarabs are generated in sequential order or all are generated simultaneously thus as that moment the Scarabs are created the can move and act as normal Scarabs.

What constitutes the start of the Movement phase is a red herring and not relevant to the discussion.

There is one "start" of the movement phase, so while you may place them sequentially you can only place them in coherency with Scarabs that were already there. If you place them in coherency with a scarab created later then you have not created it at the start of the phase, but later.

Ghaz is correct. NO you are not going to conga ine

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is one "start" of the movement phase, so while you may place them sequentially you can only place them in coherency with Scarabs that were already there. If you place them in coherency with a scarab created later then you have not created it at the start of the phase, but later.

Ghaz is correct. NO you are not going to conga ine

Discussing the start of the movement phase is a straw man. The best you are going to get me to say about the issue is there are many actions that can happen at the start of the movement phase and doing one doesn't exclude doing the others.

IF you accept the Scarabs are created instantaneously, then the conga line is a valid placement as once the Scarabs are created they will be, by definition, in unit coherency. Remember, page 46 of the Necron codex states the created Scarab "can move and act normally."

Now, the rule on page 46 of the codex doesn't stipulate the Scarabs are created all simultaneously. I can alternate from unit to unit picking a different Spyder and different Scarab unit each time I roll for the Scarab Hive wargear. Based on the RAW, the Scarabs are created sequentially.

I will also direct you to the wording RP which has wording explicitly that prevents the forming of a RP conga line. This verbiage is lacking the Scarab Hive wargear rule.

Either way, the conga line can be formed with Scarabs.

Using that ideaology I can deepstrike a raider with Haem using duke siliscus, disembark and deploy a webway portal. Then deploy models from the webway portal during the same reserve phase and move/shoot/assault out of it since I obviously do not have enough hands to place all the models at once so there are seperate actions during the reserve phase

Of course you cannot do that because it has been faqed that you only count models already on the board for determining arrival of new units, which will probably be the same for scarabs.

blaktoof--disembarking models is not an action that happens at the start of the movement phase, so your example is flawed.

The answer (IMHO) is that 40k does not have a defined order of operations for simultaneous actions being resolved sequentially. They did make it a rule for the latest fantasy book, and pretty much every ruling so far has supported simultaneous events being resolved sequentially, with the caveat that actions that any action that requires a simultaneous but subsequent action not working for START OF (whatever) purposes only.

Example: A rhino suffers 9 glancing hits from a single big scary necron unit. These 9 glances cause 2 weapon destroyed and 1 immobilized result. Despite being simultaneous, the damage is resolved sequentially, such that the 3rd damage result causes the rhino to be destroyed, as it subsequently had lost its weapon and was immobilized.

Example 2: Eldar farseer in reserve. Reserves and farseer both have 'start of' actions. However, the farseer's psychic power action would require that the simultaneous yet subsequent action (coming in from reserve) be resolved. In a manner different from how we handle the glancing situation above, the farseer can not use his powers via simultaneous subsequent actions.

SO, for the OP. Placing a second scarab based off the position of the first scarab, when all scarabs are generated simultaneously at the 'start of,' should indicate that via teleport homers and the farseer, only preexisting models in the scarab swarm would apply for start of turn effects.

With that being said, however, the rule for placing scarabs is so criminally vague that I dont know why we were bothering to place them in coherency in the first place. IF we were forced to place scarabs in coherency, then I would say that congo lines are not legal (based on precedent) BUT nothing forces us to place the scarabs in coherency currently.

Coherency must be met at the end of the units movement. No pre-measuring distance at the start of the movement phase (before the new scarabs have moved or had a chance to move!) to check 2" coherency should be allowed. Instead, place the new scarabs anywhere on the table, and if at the start of the movement phase they are not in coherency, per the movement rules, then the unit must move to be in coherency that turn. Scarabs are basicly the opposite of removing casualties it seems, and like removing casualties we dont check if the unit is in coherency when we remove the models from a unit. So likewise, when adding models to a unit, we do not check coherency.

EDIT: by the way, its not just scarabs that have this issue. The new Ghost Ark also creates models for a warrior unit within 6 inches, and like the spyders the ghost ark only says that they go in a unit that is within 6, so basily anywhere you want. THEN you can move them, and must move into coherency.

TGA - see the other thread. You are very wrong on this.

Was the scarab there at the start of the phase? If the answer is "No", then it is not part of the unit you can spawn the squad into .

No conga line, youre wrong. Multiple start of phase is allowable UNTIL you create a sequence that requires on something that happens EARLIER in the start of phase. This is ewhy, in case you havent noticed, you cannot DS a homing beacon in and then use it to avoid scatter on other units.

You are creating a sequence when a) this is denied and b) when doing so wouls top you spawning more in.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - see the other thread. You are very wrong on this.

Was the scarab there at the start of the phase? If the answer is "No", then it is not part of the unit you can spawn the squad into .

No conga line, youre wrong. Multiple start of phase is allowable UNTIL you create a sequence that requires on something that happens EARLIER in the start of phase. This is ewhy, in case you havent noticed, you cannot DS a homing beacon in and then use it to avoid scatter on other units.

You are creating a sequence when a) this is denied and b) when doing so wouls top you spawning more in.

Again, show me where in the rules a) the creation of Scarabs are ALL created simultaneously (and not just at a nebulous period of time) or b) the instantaneous creation of the models in a line doesn't place the models in unit coherency.

The Scarab Hive rule states once the Scarab is created it can move and act the moment they are created. So, at one moment the Scarabs don't exist, the the next moment, all the Scarabs are on the table, in unit coherency. That's what instantaneous means.

It may be kosher by the rules (I'm not convinced either way) but are you really going to exploit something that you know is going to be FAQed out of existence?

This move is possible, but not very effective as you will still only have about 3 bases worth able to attack.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:This move is possible, but not very effective as you will still only have about 3 bases worth able to attack.

False. 6" move , 1d6" fleet and 12" charge range.

deploy 12" in, gain 3" for every base (2 inch coherency, 1 inch base) at 9 bases is an extra 27". 39" from your end of the table and you're *inside* his deployment zone. Add 19-24" and there's more than 3 bases.

I agree with two points others have brought up:

1) At no point are you told the new models have to be placed in coherancy. You can place them anywhere on the table and simply state they belong to the unit of scarabs within 6" of the creating tombspyder. Once you get to moving the scarab unit, if all the models in the unit (including the new ones) are not in coherancy, then you must move them so they are, up to thier maximum move. If they are in coherancy when it is their turn to move, then move as normal. In abusing this oversight, yes, the conga line is possible.

2) This will get FAQed into the ground.

At no point are you told the new models have to be placed in coherancy. You can place them anywhere on the table and simply state they belong to the unit of scarabs within 6" of the creating tombspyder.

The only way you could do that is if the Canoptek Scarab unit is considered to cover the entire table. If not, then you haven't added a base to the unit, have you? No.

Sure you have. Coherancy does not have any bearing upon what models are part of that unit, except in the case of ICs. If a unit gets blasted out of coherancy by taking casualties, do the models that are out of coherancy cease being a part of the unit? No, so it's the same issue here.

No you haven't. Once again, show is a rule that says that the squad occupies the entire table. It doesn't.

Maelstrom - if a model isn't in coherency with the rest of the unit, it can't be part of the unit.

This is how I see things:

Scarabs are spawned simultaneously. This is because it's done at the "start of the move phase". One can't do it after another, because then it's no longer the start. Clear cut.

You're then asked to place a scarab base to the existing unit if you pass a roll. You have to place within coherency, because otherwise it wouldn't be part of the unit, and thus an illegal move.

Having multiple scarabs repeat the same operation changes nothing - the "unit" will only ever consist of that one scarab until they're all placed - and since you're asked to place a base IN THE UNIT - you have to be coherent (2") to that one base. Conga lining is therefore impossible.

Additionally, anyone pulling this maneouvre is clearly a bad sport as it doesn't make sense lorewise or in the game design - it's rule lawyering to the maximum and I suggest anyone who comes across it to shame their opponent!

Just tossing in my 2 cents, while it's shady it's legal.

You roll the spyders one at a time, you are not forced to roll them all at once (though most will). Nothing states that placing that once that model is place down it's not part of the unit, thus allows the congo line.

The teleport homer really has no bearing since that has to do with the use of wargear and it's timing. Placement of models in a unit is a whole separate animal that hasn't been covered by any FAQs to my knowledge.


I"ll get FAQed into the ground and playing it will probably piss off your opponent. Ask yourself how badly you want to win a game of toy soldiers.

TGA - Again, show that "Start of the turn" has a duration.
If you cannot show it has ANY duration, which you cannot as it defies the term "start" to apply a sequence then what you are attempting to do is halted as soon as you place the second scarab, as you have broken a rule.

Over to you: prove you have ANY period of time that is not a single instant "Start" of phase. If you cannot do so, and you CANNOT DO SO, you are still wrong on this.

Also, you cannot claim you have placed a Scarab "with" a unit if you are placing it 30" away. the other Scarabs you have just placed are entirely unimportant for this, as EACH scarab you place must be placed "With" the unit - not another scarab you have just placed, as remember this scarab you have just placed doesnt yet exist, ok?

I am a necron player. I will have to say 'no line' either. I will say at most(b.c of RAW and no FAQ) you will get no more than 2 inches(not including the new scarab) b/c you have to place them around the original unit within 2 inches.

I have to say, it took a while to read whats here already and if 'That guy' (that wants to make a line of scarabs) comes into the store wants to play a game with me and tried to do this 'scarab line' BullS and tried to spend said time with me arguing a rule hes trying to make broken, I would play someone else...

Actually you would have to roll each spyder separately. They form a unit of 3 now and if they have differing wargear you would have to nominate for each spyder. Also the rule says "nominate a spyder", wouldn't that imply one at a time? Again I am just pointing this out and not using it to side with either answer. I am still very much neutral on this subject.

Dannygee wrote:I am a necron player. I will have to say 'no line' either. I will say at most(b.c of RAW and no FAQ) you will get no more than 2 inches(not including the new scarab) b/c you have to place them around the original unit within 2 inches.

I have to say, it took a while to read whats here already and if 'That guy' (that wants to make a line of scarabs) comes into the store wants to play a game with me and tried to do this 'scarab line' BullS and tried to spend said time with me arguing a rule hes trying to make broken, I would play someone else...

Can you leave the "that guy" crap out of this discussion please? I was enjoying the debate until this post. We have all heard that comment before and it doesn't need to be brought up again. Thanks.

You roll the spyders one at a time, you are not forced to roll them all at once.

It does not matter if you roll them one at a time or all at once. They are still considered to all have occurred at the same time and that is at the start of the Necron Movement phase.

Mesothere wrote:Maelstrom - if a model isn't in coherency with the rest of the unit, it can't be part of the unit.

This statement is 100% false. A model can be part of a unit and not be within coherency of it.

Example:

The letters below represent a Tactical Squad deployed in a straight line.

A=Sergeant, B=Meltagun, C=Regular Guy, D=Missile Launcher

ABCCCCCCCD

An opponent fires at the unit and kills everyone but the Sergeant and the Missile Launcher. Those models are no longer in coherency. Are they no longer part of the same unit? Obviously they are the same unit, they were purchased as one unit.

Maelstrom808 has the right of this. It's perfectly legal by the RAW since at no point are you required to place models in coherency with the unit. They are added to the unit, but they can be added anywhere on the board. Coherency is checked when the unit moves, and thus if they are no longer in coherency, they are required to move as fast as possible by the most direct path to restore coherency. So the models are placed in a conga line, and then coherency is checked when the models move. Obviously there is now coherency, so the unit moves as normal.

This will be FAQ'd almost immediately, but by the RAW I can find no flaw with it right now.

Apart from the RAW that this all occurs at the start?

Let them have their fun, the expense of buying 9 tomb Spiders both monetary and points for a one shot trick will give the "no camp" the final laugh when the FAQ comes out. Then the day after 200 tomb Spiders will go on E-bay. Until then just bubble wrap as usual.

Aldarionn wrote:

Mesothere wrote:Maelstrom - if a model isn't in coherency with the rest of the unit, it can't be part of the unit.

This statement is 100% false. A model can be part of a unit and not be within coherency of it.

Example:

The letters below represent a Tactical Squad deployed in a straight line.

A=Sergeant, B=Meltagun, C=Regular Guy, D=Missile Launcher

ABCCCCCCCD

An opponent fires at the unit and kills everyone but the Sergeant and the Missile Launcher. Those models are no longer in coherency. Are they no longer part of the same unit? Obviously they are the same unit, they were purchased as one unit.

Maelstrom808 has the right of this. It's perfectly legal by the RAW since at no point are you required to place models in coherency with the unit. They are added to the unit, but they can be added anywhere on the board. Coherency is checked when the unit moves, and thus if they are no longer in coherency, they are required to move as fast as possible by the most direct path to restore coherency. So the models are placed in a conga line, and then coherency is checked when the models move. Obviously there is now coherency, so the unit moves as normal.

This will be FAQ'd almost immediately, but by the RAW I can find no flaw with it right now.

I'm pretty sure you don't "check" for coherency on movement - you only attempt to fix it on that stage. Through that logic I could deploy my entire army out of coherency on the first turn?

You can't just say you add this base to a unit - 30 inches away. When you're placing your units they have to be within coherency... such is how reserves, deep striking and deployment works.

...because those rules specify that you have to place in coherancy. This is not reserves, deep strike, or deployment. Please show me the specific rule that states when you add a model to a unit already on the table, it must be in coherancy. Please show me the rule that states a model (other than an IC) that is out of coherancy with it's unit, ceases to be a part of that unit.

And just to be clear, I'm not advocating that people actually do this, as it is obviously not how this was intended to work. Just trying to point out another example of bad RAW.