Should White Scars get their own Codex?

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**Arandmoor**

Karnac wrote:Simply put. No.

The Vanilla rines Dex need the trait system from 4th edition back, then you can "flavour" your chapters.

No they don't.

The 4th edition trait system was awful, and should never have seen print. I mean...a blind, touched monkey should have been able to see how hands-down broken it was at ten paces with the cover closed and it still managed to make it past the editor somehow.

Maybe if they made something more like the original IG traits system where step 1 is roughly "we take away EVERYTHING" and step 2 is "we'll trade you a neat option for a pound of flesh or a variant rule for your soul" it could work, but the 4th ed trait system needs to stay buried.

**Deadshot**

Stormravens should be unique to BA. it marks them out as different.

**SilverMK2**

As much as Kan dislikes this; I would put all the SM chapters in a single codex and give each divergent chapter army wide rules, special characters and units as and where required.

I don't think that any SM chapter are that different from one another that they require an entire codex to themselves.

**BrainDeleted**

Special characters to represent all divergent SM chapters? You make me shiver. A fate worse than retcon.

**SilverMK2**

BrainDeleted wrote:Special characters to represent all divergent SM chapters? You make me shiver. A fate worse than retcon.

Read the rest - army wide special rules, FOC alterations, extra units/wargear/etc

**AlmightyWalrus**

Why stop at merging the Space Marine Codices? Why not merge the Eldar and Dark Eldar? They're both the same race after all!

**Deadshot**

Why merga them at all? Is that just because you don't want so many marine dexes?

Each amrine arfmy works differently. And besides that, having all the SM in one dex would make it the size of the BRB, and cost as much too.

**SilverMK2**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why stop at merging the Space Marine Codices? Why not merge the Eldar and Dark Eldar? They're both the same race after all!

Wow, that one didn't take long to crop up.

Have a cookie.

And yes, E and DE have similar playstyles and are the same race, but they are remarkably different armies with completely different units, weapons and so on.

Deadshot wrote:Is that just because you don't want so many marine dexes?

Partly, but also because I want to have the options in one book. I also think that CSM and Daemons should go in one book for example (with added legion rules).

having all the SM in one dex would make it the size of the BRB, and cost as much too.

What makes you think that? A large chunk of codexes is the army stats/options section and unit descriptions - and there are a lot of common units across the SM armies. Then you have a certain amount of common fluff - what an SM is, how they are made, etc, plus rubbish fluff just made to up the page count and fill some space. Same with the painting/model display sections.

I reckon you could make an SM omnidex without cutting out too much army specific fluff or flavour in a book maybe about twice the size of, say, the BA dex?

**Vaktathi**

Deadshot wrote:Stormravens should be unique to BA. it marks them out as different.

Except it's not, GK's have it too, and it's widely expected to be available to all Space Marine armies come 6E anyway, it's too capable a unit and too successful a kit not to be.

Each amrine arfmy works differently. And besides that, having all the SM in one dex would make it the size of the BRB, and cost as much too

not really, 90% of units, weapons, wargear, etc are shared or a variant off a common platform. The biggest thing would be the Characters section. Remember, each marine book needs a section to go over the Horus Heresy, the origins of the Space Marine and the fundamental nature of the Space Marines, a section for Tacs (or their equivalent), Terminators, Predators, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Land Raiders, etc that are all identical or near identical across every book that wouldn't need to be repeated and takes up a lot of space in each current book.

And the marine armies don't play that differently, I play a marine army (CSM's admittedly, but a marine army all the same) and play against them all the time. Playing against them, tactics don't change much unless it's GK's.

**kronk**

Another of those debates that comes up on occassion.

I like that there are different codecies for the Space Marines. I agree that Chaos should have 3: Daemons, Legions, Renegades.

But I don't see the white scars as any different than Codex: Space Marines. Sorry. No soup for you.

**Deadshot**

Because not only wouild you have all the fluff from all the codexes in there, but many more rules and a far longer army list.

To add to a SM codex, if all the SM codex ( bar GK, they are far different)

BA
Red Thirst for most units
DoA for Assault Squads
Furiosoes and Libby Dreads
DCD
Death Co.
Stormravens
Baal Preds
Sang Guard
All the Characters
Fluff
Psychic Powers
Chaplains would have Litanies of Blood
Reclusiarchs, possibly as an upgraded Chaplain in the fluffy entry.
Sang Priests
Fasts Vehicle upgrades

SW
Wolf Guard
Rune Priests
Psychic Powers
Rune Armour
No Deep Strike for Termies
Fenrisian Wolves
TWC
2 SW characters per HQ slot, but different wargear
Wargear, like Wolf Talismans, and belt of Russ
Lone Wolves
Long Fangs ( or not

)
Blood Claws
Grey Hunters
Wolf Guard Sgts
Special Characters

DA
Deathwing
Ravenwing
Fluff
Special Characters

BT
Vows
Emperor's Champion
Fluff
Special Characters
Command Units
Mixed Squads
No Redeemer LR
POTMS Vindicators

That is a liong list, especially the fluff.

**SilverMK2**

I have to say though that 90% of a codex fluff is pointless rubbish used to fill up pages and most of the pictures have been endlessly recycled.

The psychic powers can be listed and detailed on a couple of pages, tops. Most of the unit specific fluff is pretty terrible anyway, but you hardly need more than half a page each for each unit, maybe a page for special characters and their rules.

Most of the army wide special rules could probably go on 1/4 of a page.

As I say, you can probably cut out most of the dead wood, condense the quality and necessary information and fluff and end up with an omnidex only twice the size of the current crop of dexes.

**Deadshot**

The BRB is twice the size of the SM codex.

**Vaktathi**

Deadshot wrote:Because not only wouild you have all the fluff from all the codexes in there, but many more rules and a far longer army list.

To add to a SM codex, if all the SM codex ( bar GK, they are far different)

BA
Red Thirst for most units
DoA for Assault Squads

Toss into chapter upgrade package

Furiosoes and Libby Dreads

Basically weapon swaps on Ironclads, easily encompassed in existing entry.
DCD

**Blacksails**

Dear Vaktathi and SilverMK2,

I was going to write a long, winded response to this, but it seems you have written exactly my thoughts and feelings on the matter. I agree completely with what you two have said.

They're unnecessary, and books like DA, BT, SW, and BA could be included in a loyalist book by simply adding a few pages of options and wargear choices.

Grey Knights should be included in an Inquisition book. Oh wait...

**Deadshot**

Strugglking to get the quotes to work, eh?

It is not only the units them selves. it is the simplicity.

On an army liast, you take your codex and write what you want. You don't have to worry whther you captain is a suffering from vampire emoness, or is some Wolf Lord, or worry about whether or not your Termies can come in from deep strike first turn, or not at all. And siome of those ( Deathwing Assasult VS Wolves) clash.

You don't need to worry about power comboes like 30 man Death Company supported by Deathwing TH/SS Termies, and supproted by Long Fangs and Razorspam, while Sang Priests float about with FNP and FC.

**SilverMK2**

Deadshot wrote:You don't need to worry about power comboes like 30 man Death Company supported by Deathwing TH/SS Termies, and supproted by Long Fangs and Razorspam, while Sang Priests float about with FNP and FC.

What exactly are you smoking to think that a combined codex would allow that?

Just because you have the rules for each army in the same book, doesn't mean there will be that kind of cross over.

**Deadshot**

Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

**DarknessEternal**

They already have one.

**Durza**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why stop at merging the Space Marine Codices? Why not merge the Eldar and Dark Eldar? They're both the same race after all!

Because the Dark Eldar and Eldar are substantially different, whereas Marines are a basic force with a few small variations.

Deadshot wrote:Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

Simpler? Yes. But it would make GW more likely to loose money, so it won't happen.

**Deadshot**

That is what we have already!

**Vaktathi**

Deadshot wrote:Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

You mean like many of the pages in books that people never look at now? How often do you read the Horus Heresy section in each codex? With a combined book, You'd get some additional fluff to read and an easy way to try out something new if you desired, and the book might actually be worth what they charge for it with the current ~15% price increase on Codex books each year for the last 5 years.

**PoetNWar**

I really like the White Scars as a Marine force, but do they need their own Codex? Definately not..

Guess I'm one of those people who think SMs in general need to be condensed down. I am of the opinion (and that's all i offer it as) that there could be as few as 2 or at most 4 Marine books there. Grey Knights could be pushed into a single Inquisition Codex so wouldn't be part of the standard Astares lists.

What I'd like to see for Marines are the following (with more catchy titles, of course):

Codex: Standard Chapters (This would list all the basic options and standard marine rules and Army List. with a lot of historic fluff.. Basically what we have now in the C:SM)

Codex: Non-standard Chapter rules (This would list the top 5 or so NON-standard chapters with flavor abilities and modifications to the Army List in Standard Chapter codex, with a few possible unique Troops and Special characters. The basic Army List could be added to this edition so people wouldn't be forced to buy two books, but you don't need a seperate list for every single Chapter, but this version might be larger and cost a little more.)

Codex: Traitor Marines (Renegades) This could almost be put into the Non-standard book, if space permitted.
Codex: Chaos Marines (Legions)

As a side note, if GW continues the way they are, out of the chapters normally shown or played, Salamanders are possibly the only other chapter that might deserve their own codex, as they seem to have more non-standard chapter features and could be fluffed up to make a fun army to play.

Late night rambling stop.

**Arandmoor**

Deadshot wrote:Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

No. Individual codexes are definitely simpler, and far more fool-proof.

However, the shear number of marine codexes has been toxic to 40k for some time now, and is a big reason I've seen a lot of people stop playing. Some people don't want to play marines. Some because they don't want an army that does *everything* well, others because they don't want to play what's popular, others because marines don't do what they want them to do well enough while another army does, etc.

Yet, half the release schedule is devoted to marines.

If you got all the space marine armies over at once, you could spend the time freed up in the schedule developing the other armies.

I keep hearing this phrase whenever people talk in favor of the chapter codexes, "They're different enough they deserve their own codex!"

And the craftworlds aren't? They couldn't be further developed to deserve their own?
The dark eldar wytch cults couldn't?
The dark eldar haemonculus covens couldn't?
The dark eldar kabals couldn't?
What about the Adeptus Mechanacus and their Skitari Legions? I'd love to see whatever they're hiding from the rest of the imperium!
What about the SoB?
We're still waiting for an Ordo Xenos codex.
The Ork Kults?
How about more about the Tau Sept Worlds? Their technology develops so rapidly they could easily develop separate combat doctrines for garrisoning different kinds of worlds, and that's *just* the Tau I'm talking about. The more worlds they conquer the more aliens they draw into their empire.
The necrons have their dynasties now, and we're *missing* models from the old codex!

How about more IG? The Cadians vs. Catachans? I'd bet money assaulting a daemonic strongold with an army that's basically 100% stormtroopers (cadians are supposed to wear hardshell armor. Not flack) is infinitely different from fighting a guerrilla war on some emperor-forsaken jungle deathworld. Different enough, in fact, to warrant a separate codex.
*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%283rd_Edition%29#.TsM_20CiJdU*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%284th_Edition%29#.TsNABECiJdU*COUGH*

Must be some dust in the air or something. Maybe I'm catching a cold?

How about low gravity IG jump troops? The low grav world IG regiments are supposed to be the best paratroopers in the galaxy by imperial standards barring the obvious space marines that specialize in drop pod insertion.

Hell. How can the space marines "deserve" their chapter codexes, but the chaos legions don't? CSM *lost* the ability to play Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers in all but name.

The space marine chapter codexes need to all get stuffed into the same book mid or late 6th edition, and then left the hell alone until early 8th at the earliest. 40K is stagnating because of them.

**SilverMK2**

Arandmoor wrote:Stuff

Well posted

**Deadshot**

Arandmoor wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

No. Individual codexes are definitely simpler, and far more fool-proof.

However, the shear number of marine codexes has been toxic to 40k for some time now, and is a big reason I've seen a lot of people stop playing. Some people don't want to play marines. Some because they don't want an army that does *everything* well, others because they don't want to play what's popular, others because marines don't do what they want them to do well enough while another army does, etc.

Yet, half the release schedule is devoted to marines.

If you got all the space marine armies over at once, you could spend the time freed up in the schedule developing the other armies.

I keep hearing this phrase whenever people talk in favor of the chapter codexes, "They're different enough they deserve their own codex!"

And the craftworlds aren't? They couldn't be further developed to deserve their own?
The dark eldar wytch cults couldn't?
The dark eldar haemonculus covens couldn't?
The dark eldar kabals couldn't?
What about the Adeptus Mechanacus and their Skitari Legions? I'd love to see whatever they're hiding from the rest of the imperium!
What about the SoB?
We're still waiting for an Ordo Xenos codex.
The Ork Kults?
How about more about the Tau Sept Worlds? Their technology develops so rapidly they could easily develop separate combat doctrines for garrisoning different kinds of worlds, and that's *just* the Tau I'm talking about. The more worlds they conquer the more aliens they draw into their empire.
The necrons have their dynasties now, and we're *missing* models from the old codex!

How about more IG? The Cadians vs. Catachans? I'd bet money assaulting a daemonic strongold with an army that's basically 100% stormtroopers (cadians are supposed to wear hardshell armor. Not flack) is infinitely different from fighting a guerrilla war on some emperor-forsaken jungle deathworld. Different enough, in fact, to warrant a separate codex.
*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%283rd_Edition%29#.TsM_20CiJdU*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%284th_Edition%29#.TsNABECiJdU*COUGH*

Must be some dust in the air or something. Maybe I'm catching a cold?

How about low gravity IG jump troops? The low grav world IG regiments are supposed to be the best paratroopers in the galaxy by imperial standards barring the obvious space marines that specialize in drop pod insertion.

Hell. How can the space marines "deserve" their chapter codexes, but the chaos legions don't? CSM *lost* the ability to play Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers in all but name.

The space marine chapter codexes need to all get stuffed into the same book mid or late 6th edition, and then left the hell alone until early 8th at the earliest. 40K is stagnating because of them.

There is only 6 marine codexes, 7 if you count CSM.

MEQ
SM
BA
DA
BT
SW
GK

Xenos and other
Necrons
Tau
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Orks
Tyranids
Daemons
I count Chaos Marines as non SM.

So it is either 6:8 or 7:7 depending on where you place CSM.

**juraigamer**

Instead of that, why not just make the next vanilla codex give you bonus options for playing themed armies. For all the original chapters.

**Deadshot**

Arandmoor wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Would it then not be simplier to have individual codexes, instaed of wasting money on sections, large sections, which you won't use?

No. Individual codexes are definitely simpler, and far more fool-proof.

However, the shear number of marine codexes has been toxic to 40k for some time now, and is a big reason I've seen a lot of people stop playing. Some people don't want to play marines. Some because they don't want an army that does *everything* well, others because they don't want to play what's popular, others because marines don't do what they want them to do well enough while another army does, etc.

Yet, half the release schedule is devoted to marines.

Because SM are the flagship of GW and 40K

If you got all the space marine armies over at once, you could spend the time freed up in the schedule developing the other armies.

see above. GW want Marine codexes because that is what 40K is based around.
I keep hearing this phrase whenever people talk in favor of the chapter codexes, "They're different enough they deserve their own codex!"

And the craftworlds aren't? They couldn't be further developed to deserve their own?
The dark eldar wytch cults couldn't?
The dark eldar haemonculus covens couldn't?
The dark eldar kabals couldn't?
Yet no one who hasn't read the fluff knows bout nothing. They're al the same

What about the Adeptus Mechanacus and their Skitari Legions? I'd love to see whatever they're hiding from the rest of the imperium!
Their super poowerful Technolgy

What about the SoB?
Tghey have a (fake, badly written) minidex.

We're still waiting for an Ordo Xenos codex.
GK

The Ork Kults?
They all think the same. No need

How about more about the Tau Sept Worlds? Their technology develops so rapidly they could easily develop separate combat doctrines for garrisoning different kinds of worlds, and that's *just* the Tau I'm talking about. The more worlds they conquer the more aliens they draw into their empire.
The necrons have their dynasties now, and we're *missing* models from the old codex!

How about more IG? The Cadians vs. Catachans? I'd bet money assaulting a daemonic strongold with an army that's basically 100% stormtroopers (cadians are supposed to wear hardshell armor. Not flack) is infinitely different from fighting a guerrilla war on some emperor-forsaken jungle deathworld. Different enough, in fact, to warrant a separate codex.
*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%283rd_Edition%29#.TsM_20CiJdU*COUGH*http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Catachans_%284th_Edition%29#.TsNABECiJdU*COUGH*

Must be some dust in the air or something. Maybe I'm catching a cold?

How about low gravity IG jump troops? The low grav world IG regiments are supposed to be the best paratroopers in the galaxy by imperial standards barring the obvious space marines that specialize in drop pod insertion.

Hell. How can the space marines "deserve" their chapter codexes, but the chaos legions don't? CSM *lost* the ability to play Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers in all but name.

Iron Warriors are easily made with lots of Oblits, and WB with Daemons and Icons.

**Shigematsu**

You forgot Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. So its 6:10 Marines:Not Marines or 8:8 for Imperium:Xenos. The fact that almost 40% of the codecies are Space Marines is a tad ridiculous.

A good balance for Space Marines might be a Codex Adherent book, a non-Codex Adherent Book, and Grey Knights/Deathwatch book.

**AlmightyWalrus**

If the complaint is that Marines are too similar, how is merging them into one book where you make everything "weapon swaps" going to help?

Furthermore, GW releases Marines because they sell. People seem to be under the impression that the number of Xenos players would skyrocket if the Marines were folded into one book. This just won't happen unless people jump ship from the Marine Codex because it sucks, in which case someone else's army will have had to suffer in order to please you.

I think the real issue is that the current Space Wolves, Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Blood Angels Codices are so damn good. We could use a Xenos Codex up there with the Wolves so that some bandwagon-jumpers start playing Xenos instead.