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If you folks are so offended by even the reference to Nazis, who do you feel about anybody in Germany playing against Imperial guard, that are so obviously modeled after British or American forces in WWII?

Nazis or no, we killed Germans.

No apology required, this is ridiculous.

First of all the German Cross is not a symbol of Nazism, it's a symbol of GERMANY.

Even if your army did look like Nazi's I dont understand what the problem is.... It's an army in a Sci Fi tabletop game... I would love to play against an opponent feilding an army of Nazi's. Who doesnt wanna fight/kill Nazi's!?

Next time someone give you flak for feilding an army that looks like Nazi's ask them if they think its appropriate to go home and play as an Axis soldier on thier Xbox in Battlefield or some other game.

But...but 40k is...it's a PARODY of most of the worst things in human history! The crusades, Nazi Germany, stalinist russia, imperialist japan, the mongolian hordes, all the worst excesses of all the worst regimes.

Monsterous catholic style cathedrals built on human suffering, massess being oppressed by a horrible religion based on a martyred god, loyalty to the fascist state causing mankind to turn on itself.

HOW IS IT EVER OK TO GET IN TROUBLE FOR PLAYING A NAZI INSPIRED ARMY!? I mean...what!? Thats...thats the point of the game! Or at least A point of the game.

And you people are defending the store owner? For kicking out someone for playing with official models!?

And, taking the OP at his word (obviously the conversation and tone could have been much worse than he is implying) his 'snarky' comments...No.

No. You say NO. Like when a puppy pees on the ground NO. NO.

This hurts my head. It is simply INNAPROPRIATE to be this sensitive when playing in such a parody universe like this. When you are offended by the very CORE of the experience the onus is on YOU to avoid things you find offensive. I'm not saying it's bad to be offended, but it IS bad to complain about in and punish others because you don't like the nature of the hobby.

And it is not right for the store owner to punish people for being in the spirit of the game. His comments weren't offensive, at least not to the point where there is any grounds for punishments.

This is just dumb and hurts my head. grr

I'm not faulting him for playing a nazi army (although it is silly since it will cause controversy). I'm faulting him for following criticism with a joke in poor taste that just proved everyone's point.

Yeah baring more information the 'sniff test' is someone who made his own problem. No one is going to throw you out of a store for a well researched and painted army... however they will knock it to the curb if paired with arse-hatness.

I think you were in the right. There aren't any insultive symbols in your army just a mark of the german army that they just happened to be using in WW2 all armies have something that they are ashamed of but picking you up on the crosses and the german style uniform is just being fussy. I mean people dont yell at you for building a sail ship for it looking to much like a slavers ship do they? The jew comment was out of line though and the maneger did have right to ask you to leave for it. I see no problem with the army though as most of the imperial gaurd armies are based on historical armies.
Vostryans are based on 1700-1800's british soldiers.
Catachans are based on the american troops in vietnam
Picking you up for painting your army in the style of the germans is just being silly, I own a model of a WW2 german tank and nobody yells at me for that other wise hundreds of model making companies would be shuting down.
I have no problem with your army and find it perfectly acceptable, the man who picked you up on your army was probably somebody who just wanted to look good infront of all the people at your games-workshop. there is nothing wrong with painting your army in that style as they arent meant to be hounoring the germans in any way, you just gave them a cool paintjob and somebody disagreed with it possibley because they had been picked up on something similar and wanted to redeem himself in the eyes of his fellow gamers. There are several armies that could be considered dis-respectfull but nobody asks chaos players to leave because they are using an army that is meant to worship fake God's or Necron player's who can actually field the C'tan. I think you should go back to the shop and have a quiet discussion with the manager explaining that your army is not meant to be a nazi army and is just an army that is painted in a particular style and if he really is fed up with your army either re-paint them or play with them somewhere else.

I thought Vostroyans were based on Czarist Russia.
I think you're thinking of Praetorians.

If the OP had just said, nah, it's not Nazi it's just Iron Crosses reminiscent of early WWI German military, he would have been golden.

This issue comes up every now and then in gaming circles and I never understand why. First of all this is a game, one side against the other, somebody has to look like the bad guy. Who is a bigger stereotype for bad guys then Nazis? I understand the “it’s offensive” remarks, but what do people say when people are playing historical two tables over. So it’s ok for the flames of war players to have German looking troops but not the 40K players, that really does not make sense. People play both sides in video games like call of duty all the time and nobody screams about being offended. I also find it ironic that people who are huge drooling fan boys for the 40K universe could be offended by Nazi looking models when they play Chaos or Imperial armies. If people read any of the dribble that GW puts out they will see that both the Imperiaum and Chaos do evil things just as bad if not worse than anything done in Nazi Germany. GW stories are full of torture, genocide, racism, murder and worse, but nobody says they are offended. In a way it is sadder to imitate these traits in a fictional world then it is to create a historical recreation. If nobody wants to be offended then we should all give up the game or play Tau and fight for the greater good. So for all those offended people out there you should take a closer look at your own army before you make comments about other peoples. Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion. Let us not read too much into a collection of toy soldiers on a table top.

I don't think anyone is faulting him for painting his guys like germans with WWII iconography, Mr. S Baldrick, you're misreading the thread.

We're faulting him for not expecting some sort of response in the real world when he did it and then acting like a tool in response.

Simmer down a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion.

Also, the difference is that the Nazis were real and killed real people, who someone might be related to. The DE and the Imperium are fake. Guaranteed no one you meet is going to have had their grandmother raped and killed by a DE. Slight distinction, I know, but I can see how someone might be a bit touchy about it if their family had a personal experience.

pretre wrote:I don't think anyone is faulting him for painting his guys like germans with WWII iconography, Mr. S Baldrick, you're misreading the thread.

We're faulting him for not expecting some sort of response in the real world when he did it and then acting like a tool in response.

Simmer down a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion.

Also, the difference is that the Nazis were real and killed real people, who someone might be related to. The DE and the Imperium are fake. Guaranteed no one you meet is going to have had their grandmother raped and killed by a DE. Slight distinction, I know, but I can see how someone might be a bit touchy about it if their family had a personal experience.

So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.

Yes, I absolutely think it is okay to applaud behavior in a fictional world and condemn it in the real world.

- I do not think it is okay to fire guns at people and make them dead in the real world. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it it okay for someone to walk into a bar, tell a story and then kill every MF'er in the bar. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it is okay for a government to oppress its people, convince them they have always been at war with their neighbor and persecute them for their very thoughts. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.

You getting the idea here?

There is a big leap between fiction and reality. Thinking that dystopian sci-fi societies that kill mutants and psykers are pretty cool is a lot different than thinking a real society responsible for killing a couple million jews is cool.

Also, how else can you mean "I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here" in reference to " it looks to much like a NAZI army"?

edit: Taken apart, his army's appearance and the comment aren't that bad and wouldn't be cause for much comment. Taken together, they form a certain picture.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.

Yes, I think it's absolutely okay (even a good thing) to have a healthy separation between fantasy and reality. From the context of his OP I'm inclined to think he knew Swastikas would be offensive and that he could "get away with" using the Iron Cross.
If that's the case, I'd consider him 100% in the wrong.

This thread reminds me of this...



That said, the comment about not knowing there were Jewish people in the store was not the best of moves on the OP's part, especially considering the atmosphere that was forming. Personally, I see nothing wrong with German Military iconography, though if the iconography was specifically related to Nazism (e.g: the Swastika, an unfortunately misappropriated Hindu symbol) and was not intended for historical accuracy, then that's out of line.

I'd advise, before using historical symbols, to research them fully in future so if you use them on models and these sorts of situations arise you can educate the person about them rather than making comments which can be seen as either smart-arsed or misunderstood (remember, on the internet no one can hear your tone of voice!).

I have no issues with the use of the Balkenkreuz myself - DKoK are inspired, as others said, from French, Belgian & German WW1 troops and the Balkenkreuz came into use mid-1918. I'd also not mind if the troops were painted in a close approximation to the Wehrmacht feld-grau. As Lord_Vader says, outside of a historical context using Nazi iconography would be, as he put it, out of line.

jbunny wrote:If you can't do Nazi stuff how do you play Flames of War?

Simple, you use a Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe force. SS =/= German army of 1939-45.

pretre wrote:
Yes, I absolutely think it is okay to applaud behavior in a fictional world and condemn it in the real world.

- I do not think it is okay to fire guns at people and make them dead in the real world. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it it okay for someone to walk into a bar, tell a story and then kill every MF'er in the bar. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it is okay for a government to oppress its people, convince them they have always been at war with their neighbor and persecute them for their very thoughts. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.

You getting the idea here?

Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.

To the OP I say play on, and don't let people bother you. If your models look like modern US/UK somebody will be offended if they are against the war in Iraq. If you have catachans they will be offended if they were against Vietnam. If you have tallarens they will be offended if they are from NY (have a true story on that for another time). Or people just may not like the color blue either way don't let it get you down and remember this is America. If anyone has a proplem with it tell them to look at the 1st amendment of the constitution.

It is amazing that nobody gets up set over a vahallen army made to look like Soviet Russians, who by the way killed more people that the Nazis and in just as horrible of ways.

Several peole in this thread have missed this. Granted its poorly expressed

Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he (the store owner) told me it would just be best if i go home so he (the guy complaining) would shut up

He did not get kicked out, he was asked to leave (possibly even politely) so the store owner and other patrons could get some peace from the guy whinging.

See my OP for my views but it seems to me anyway the store owner was partially if not fully on his side. He (the store owner) simply didnt want to deal with the conflict, which in itself is poor and another issue altogether.

Take out the German Luftwaffe symbol and explain your army after that.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.

It is fine for them to do so, but they should expect that someone might get offended. That's just the nature of using controversial symbols in your gaming.

To the OP I say play on, and don't let people bother you. If your models look like modern US/UK somebody will be offended if they are against the war in Iraq. If you have catachans they will be offended if they were against Vietnam. If you have tallarens they will be offended if they are from NY (have a true story on that for another time). Or people just may not like the color blue either way don't let it get you down and remember this is America. If anyone has a proplem with it tell them to look at the 1st amendment of the constitution.

It is amazing that nobody gets up set over a vahallen army made to look like Soviet Russians, who by the way killed more people that the Nazis and in just as horrible of ways.

The difference is of degree. All of those are controversial, but none are as controversial as Nazis. You shouldn't be surprised to be called out on any army if you paint them to be historically accurate rather than staying in the sci-fi/fantasy setting. But if you paint your army as Nazis, you're just asking for it.

1st Amendment of the Constitution doesn't allow you to play in a private store if the owner doesn't want you to be there. You have the freedom to say what you want in public. So go take your anti-semitism to the public park and play 40k there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, again Baldrick, you missed the point. No one cares that he painted his army as Nazis. They cared that he was a douche AND painted his army as Nazis. If he wasn't a douche, he could have explained himself and gotten to play. Instead, the store owner's decision was justified by his behavior.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.

And if someone is offended, the right thing to do is to mock the situation and play on amirite!

Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.


See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.

agnosto wrote:Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.


See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.

Thanks, Captain NonSequitor.

There's a couple big differences:
- No living person was affected by the crusades directly or even had their parents affected in the same way that living people were affected by the Nazis.
- Of someone WAS offended by your crusader army and, instead of explaining that it has nothing to do with the rape and pillage of the so-called Holy Land by non-muslim western europeans, you just said 'There's no Muslims here, what's the problem?', I would probably still think you were a douche and ask you to leave.

See how that works? It's logic, take the broomstick out of your butt and think.

This may sound like trolling but.....
I would have packed my army, then walked aroungd the store and pulled probably a solid dozen board games from the shelves and laid them on the table I was supposed to play at... Starting with "Axis and Allies", a game where one player actually is PLAYING the Nazis, Pointed this out to the owner and then left.
Let them deal with their own hypocrisy.

helgrenze wrote:This may sound like trolling but.....
I would have packed my army, then walked aroungd the store and pulled probably a solid dozen board games from the shelves and laid them on the table I was supposed to play at... Starting with "Axis and Allies", a game where one player actually is PLAYING the Nazis, Pointed this out to the owner and then left.
Let them deal with their own hypocrisy.

That's a much more mature response than just explaining that your army is built on a historical german regiment and not meant to glorify Nazi-ism (which is what the OP should have said).

See my post Hel, he wasnt kicked by the owner for the army per se, jaysus, can we leave that point aside?

Well, the right way to handle it is to punch the offended gamer in the testicles as hard as possible so as to prevent him from reproducing more silly and weak human beings. However, that might cause you legal troubles.

But, when you painted your DKOK to look like the Wehrmacht, you should have known it would upset some people. And it's in the store manager's best interest to prohibit things that contain controversial imagery. There are certain things you don't make positive reference to in general company. Nazi Germany is probably one of them. I mean, I saw an authentic SS helmet for sale at a gun show once that somebody's grandpa or uncle must have brought back from WWII, and I thought "Wow, that's a pretty cool piece of history". And then I tried to figure out how I explain having that helmet to anyone who came to visit my house. Reason won out.

If you want to play that army in public arenas, reason dictates you should probably change the iconography. It may not be "right" but it's what is prudent.

I dont know why anyone would want to play Nazis, but as the opponent I wouldnt really mind; I mean, I get to kill them, right?

Ok so the complainer had an issue with the army.... fine. does that invalidate the point that there are other games that actually include and encourage the playing of an actual nazi... not german-based... army?

Yeah the OP could have handled things differently, but it would have not likely quieted the complainer who obviously wanted to be offended by the "nazi-based" army.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you want to play that army in public arenas, reason dictates you should probably change the iconography. It may not be "right" but it's what is prudent.

Or be prepared to discuss your choice like an adult with other adults.

It's a wonderful, rose colored universe you live in where you can change the minds of offended simpletons through rational discourse and where rational appeals to merchants overcome good business sense.

I mean, he probably could have handled it better, and without the Jew comments. But really, in the end it wouldn't have made a difference. He'd have a moral victory, and hundreds of dollars of still useless Forgeworld resin.

pretre wrote:

agnosto wrote:Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.


See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.

Thanks, Captain NonSequitor.

There's a couple big differences:
- No living person was affected by the crusades directly or even had their parents affected in the same way that living people were affected by the Nazis.
- Of someone WAS offended by your crusader army and, instead of explaining that it has nothing to do with the rape and pillage of the so-called Holy Land by non-muslim western europeans, you just said 'There's no Muslims here, what's the problem?', I would probably still think you were a douche and ask you to leave.

See how that works? It's logic, take the broomstick out of your butt and think.

I fail to see how my post is not relevant and you may note, if you weren't so busy attacking me personally, that I never defended the OP's statement, simply the fact that overreacting about his army theme has nothing whatsoever to do with politics or even his personal views...unless of course he has white supremacist tattoos all over his body.

As to the relevancy of the crusades. You may recall that the term "crusader" is still used in the Arab world as a derogatory statement much like the term "Nazi" is in the western world. One might say that crusaders are even more relevant a point of angst in this day and age, considering the high Muslim population in the world and how said population still feels about the crusades, than Nazism. Yeah, logic and a basic grasp of history and current events.