Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he told me it would just be best if i go home so he would shut up. But I dont plan to change the flags or models what should I do?

Not sure your jew response was appropriate. You dont have to be Jewish to find Nazism and its beliefs offensive.

If the store manager had no problem with it and the army genuinely has no Nazi connotations just clearly explain to him the reasoning behind your paintscheme/build.

If he continues try and ignore him or ask the store manager to have a word with him. He is probably a loudmouth looking to make a name for himself in the store.

Try and explain the army first, many people may not have seen a DKOK army since its FW.

Commissar41.0 wrote:and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. [/b]

That's where you fethed up. Being a smartass in the situation makes you wrong. Full stop. Go back to the store, remain calm, and have a rational discussion with the store manager/owner/whatever. Bring a couple of models with you to show him again.

If you act like a spoiled, entitled 15 year old, you won't get anywhere in life.

If your army looks just like Nazis without swastikas - but including other symbols that clearly indicate the inspiration - then yes you are 'in the wrong'.

By 'in the wrong' I mean that you are free to paint your guys however you wish, but to think that what you've chosen won't cause offense is utterly naive. Nazi Germany's actions and policies, aside from being genocidal towards Jews, are pretty repugnant to any decent human beings. The store owner was completely within his rights to ask you to leave, since you could offend other patrons.

I would guess the damage has already been done and the army won't be welcome there anymore sadly.


You might try again, but avoid any potentially any problematic language. Just explain that you have a DkoK army. Look it up on Forge World. Explain that they are based off of WW1 trench warfare. yadda yadda...

Be nice and civil. If that guy complains again, it will make him look like the duche that he is. If he asks you to leave, remind him that its not his decision.


Maybe go in and talk to the store manager at a time when no one is playing and explain the situation. Apologise for the jew comment, but say that you felt insulted you couldn't use your well painted and expensive Forge World models because someone got a hangnail over it. Its not like you had them painted like the SS or anything. I doubt anyone would have recognised the Luftwaffe symbol so the only point of contention would be the uniform, and besides the Luftwaffe weren't the political thugs in the german army. Maybe point out how just about every 40k army resembles some historical or modern faction in some way. Would people get insulted if you came in with a Tallern army? Or an army full of Commissars? or a Dark Eldar army? Or a Daemon army?

My point is that the whole 40k universe is full of highly unpleasent things that any number of people could get all wound up about. If this is a fixture of the store, I would find another place to play.

I think we need to see pictures of the army before deciding how legitimate the 'nazi' concerns are.

Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+).

Could we get some pictures?

First off, the DKoK models are not WWII Germans - and that's really only because their helmet resembles the German Stahlhelm. Without that, they're essentially WWI soldiers with laser guns. Unless you aren't using the DKoK models, and have instead gotten actual WWII German minis. Which compounds the problem.

And I want to see just how well used the Balkenkreuz is in your army. If it's just the occasional mark, then you can just say you were inspired by the Prussian/German Iron Cross.

But the whole 'Jewish' remark? Yeah, that was stupid. I really can't tell your age, but the situation could have definitely been handled in a better manner. Ah, ok. You're 17. Yeah, that definitely could have been handled better.

DKoK are just WWI soldiers...
The jewish remark, as others have said, was a silly thing to do.
You should have just explained to him that it has nothing to do with the Nazi's...

Here's a pic out of his gallery.

^ Well, that's ok. But he mentioned flags - that's what I want to see.

For DKOK, they are rather a brightly colored and cheery looking lot.

I've never seen this symbol as offensive, if the army had swastikas painted all over it I may understand the managers concerns but I don't see any problems. Also please don't say something about Jews, sadly people always interpret these as bad things, but don't try to be a smart arse ether.

Well yeah, the pic above isn't very illuminating... but I saw it so I thought I'd toss it up for consideration since it is from the army in question.

purplefood wrote:DKoK are just WWI soldiers...
The jewish remark, as others have said, was a silly thing to do.
You should have just explained to him that it has nothing to do with the Nazi's...

Apart from the fact that theyre from 40000 years in the future and in an imaginary universe. Dkok do not resemble the Wermacht (i think thats how its spelt) at all. people just connect them because the helmets and overalls look midly simalar to an SS officer in the field. Why this person had a go at you OP i have no idea but making a smartass comment to do with jews was way out of line.

I've never seen the Balkenkreuz as offensive. Germany adopted it really really late into WW1, if I'm not mistaken. I've never seen it as a Nazi symbol or anything. If you had swastikas on your models then you would be in the wrong, but initially, you're in the right. Then you said "I'm not aware we have any Jews here" which is when you went from "skirting on the edge of okay" to "so far in the wrong you can't tell which way is up". I'm not Jewish, and I still find that comment sort of offensive. I also would find a bunch of swastikas painted on your models pretty offensive, unless we were specifically playing a World War 2 game.

In short, you were in the right, said something you shouldn't, and now are in the wrong.

The Balkenkreuz has it's origins in WW1, the DKoK models are German only inso much as they have Stahlhelm (created in WW1) inspired helmets and German style WW1 gas masks, the uniforms are primarily French inspired and the color scheme in the pic matches the French WW1 uniform very closely.

All in all, store owner being a jerk and blasting his mouth without knowing what he's talking about probably just because of the helmets and crosses.

that said, you probably shot yourself in the foot with the ill informed ethnic remark.

Grey Templar wrote:I would guess the damage has already been done and the army won't be welcome there anymore sadly.


You might try again, but avoid any potentially any problematic language. Just explain that you have a DkoK army. Look it up on Forge World. Explain that they are based off of WW1 trench warfare. yadda yadda...

Be nice and civil. If that guy complains again, it will make him look like the duche that he is. If he asks you to leave, remind him that its not his decision.


Maybe go in and talk to the store manager at a time when no one is playing and explain the situation. Apologise for the jew comment, but say that you felt insulted you couldn't use your well painted and expensive Forge World models because someone got a hangnail over it. Its not like you had them painted like the SS or anything. I doubt anyone would have recognised the Luftwaffe symbol so the only point of contention would be the uniform, and besides the Luftwaffe weren't the political thugs in the german army. Maybe point out how just about every 40k army resembles some historical or modern faction in some way. Would people get insulted if you came in with a Tallern army? Or an army full of Commissars? or a Dark Eldar army? Or a Daemon army?

My point is that the whole 40k universe is full of highly unpleasent things that any number of people could get all wound up about. If this is a fixture of the store, I would find another place to play.

The WW1 Trench Warfare sounds fitting and like your best option, just go in and politely apologize, especially for the jew comment, and make an intelligent conversation/appeal with good reasons for your army to be allowed, with an appropriate theme.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:For DKOK, they are rather a brightly colored and cheery looking lot.

It's just after Candlemas, and they had a great time - apparently there was a rugby match out in no-man's land. Who knew the Orks could play so well?

Gitsplitta wrote:Here's a pic out of his gallery.

That doesn't look NAZI in any way shape or form. I have no idea how this started in the first place.


Regardless, I fear the damage has already been done. Although you should still go and talk to the manager. Do make a point of apoligizing for your comment though. it will make you look alot better and you will, should, get an apology in return. If you don't, find another place to play.

Vaktathi wrote:The Balkenkreuz has it's origins in WW1, the DKoK models are German only inso much as they have Stahlhelm (created in WW1) inspired helmets and German style WW1 gas masks, the uniforms are primarily French inspired and the color scheme in the pic matches the French WW1 uniform very closely.

All in all, store owner being a jerk and blasting his mouth without knowing what he's talking about probably just because of the helmets and crosses.

that said, you probably shot yourself in the foot with the ill informed ethnic remark.

Many, *many* people don't make much of a distinction between the Balkenkreuz and the Swastika (besides the obvious visual difference). They associate both with Nazi Germany - the Swastika is just more widely known.
The store owner was in the right, receiving a (perfectly valid) complaint from a customer and dealing with it the easiest way possible.

The complaining person might have been okay if the OP had explained that they weren't Nazi symbols and there was no attempt at making a Nazi army.
The OP definitely shot himself in the foot with the ethnic comment.

TBH, I would've been fine playing against an army like that until I heard the comment he made. Then I would've asked for the OP to asked to leave. There was no reason for it.

Having a few vague comments from you about your army, your secondhand recounting what others have said, and a single picture, I can't really say how I feel about your army.

But, with that horrible, terrible comment you made, and the fact that you think just because there's no Jewish players around, a Nazi-inspired army is okay, I'm inclined not to give you the benefit of the doubt.

If you can't do Nazi stuff how do you play Flames of War?

rigeld2 wrote:
The store owner was in the right, receiving a (perfectly valid) complaint from a customer and dealing with it the easiest way possible.

Telling a customer they can't use an army with valid models and a decent paintjob without inquiring further isn't the right way to go about doing that, especially if its an independent where they run stuff like Flames of War where such iconography is of course routine and tolerated. If it was a GW store, it's even sillier given that there's art of DKoK and Steel Legion (fallschirmjaeger clones) troopers bearing flags with german military crosses in several pieces of 40k artwork and the DKoK models are valid Citadel miniatures.

The complaining person might have been okay if the OP had explained that they weren't Nazi symbols and there was no attempt at making a Nazi army.

Or if the complainers had taken the time to ask about the army that, at least from the available pic above, has more in common visually with French Poilu's than anything else.

The OP definitely shot himself in the foot with the ethnic comment.

Yup

Grakmar wrote:But, with that horrible, terrible comment you made, and the fact that you think just because there's no Jewish players around, a Nazi-inspired army is okay, I'm inclined not to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I was with you on your story until you got to that part. DKOK with Iron Crosses = OK. DKOK with Iron Crosses and Anti-Semitic opinions = Not OK.

Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here

Yes, you are in the wrong.

Everything was gold for ya till the ethnic comment. You need to apologize for that. And then point out that they're DKoK and the paint job ain't nothing like Nazis. Hell, I think the Luftwaffe symbol is actually kinda cool.

And technically you could get away with swastikas if you were Hindu or had some connection with Hinduism (though they'd have to be inverted)

Isn't that symbol the Iron Cross or what have you?

Doesn't Germany still paint that on their tanks? If so, then how does a symbol that Germany uses TODAY possibly have any connection with the Nazis? Doesn't modern Germany absolutely deplore Nazism? Don't people know this? We aren't teenage girls who think the USSR was a submarine... people should know better. Especially people who probably visit a store and went through that awkward phase of being semi-obsessed with world war two.

This whole situation is filled with people who don't know enough to be able to comment on the situation. And now I want to buy FW DKoK.... shoot.

He doesn't need to apologize for any statements he made; this isn't elementary school.

The fact is that I doubt he meant the comment in a snarky way; I read it as an earnest statement from someone who probably doesn't realize others are sensitive about the subject and just thought that only Jewish people in the store would be offended. This may be slightly misguided, but I doubt he meant it to be offensive or snarky; remember that text is hard to convey true meaning.

So no, you don't have to apologize for this.

If you made a comment that offended people because you put it across other than you intended it then, no, techinically there is no reason to apologise. However, the better man would do so.

jbunny wrote:If you can't do Nazi stuff how do you play Flames of War?

You don't get a choice with that, you make the army as it is. And there's a genuine historical argument.

But to take a fantasy army, and then consciously model them up to look like nazis is douchebaggery. Like the kid that desperately wants to get attention, or maybe it simply shows a lack of understanding that it is 'not cool' to even hint at some degree of glorification.

What the difference between nazi tanks and IG tanks painted in panzer grey with crosses? None, because WW2 german tanks weren't marked with swastikas, they carried the cross. So if you make IG tanks and paint them grey and put crosses on them, well they look rather like the source material and bleating that they aren't anything to do with nazis even though they are styled after their armed forces isn't going to convince.

I personally think it's telling that when the OP was faced with the nazi connotations being pointed out, he didn't react with genuine surprise that someone could draw such a terrible connection but immediately said "but there aren't any jews around". That makes me think he knew exactly what he had modelled before even going in the shop but didn't expect to be called on it.