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ph34r wrote:This is just goofy. It would be understandable for a vanilla SM player to complain that deepstriking AM isn't worth it.

But this is a BA player.

Complaining that his DoA assault marines aren't accurate enough.

...for him to land in meltarange, and he's also complaining about dieing horribly after landing. Did you read the OP, or skim through it?

It is worth it with WS

I tried a sort of DoA list against my IG friend...
He won the roll off, told me to go first and then reserved his entire army. I managed a grand total of 1 weapon destroyed and a Stunned result on his vehicles before I conceded with 4 marines left. Ofc, my shooting could've gone better and his could've gone worse, but he's never stomped me so hard before. We were only playing 1000p, so every lost marine put a rather large dent in my retaliation capabilities.

DoA/deepstrike has got some potential in lot of scenarios, but as far as I'm concerned, I won't use it against IG anymore. And I will only use it across my entire army if I know for sure my opponent will deploy something on the board.

I've found that when it comes to firepower heavy armies like IG, or the new necrons, dropping works just fine, if you're cagey about where you drop.

If he reserves everything, drop defensively, use your Run moves to tuck further out of LoS. And don't forget to use your DoA reroll to keep things off the table as long as possible.

It means they take one round of shooting getting into combat when they DS.

They would take quite a bit more shooting crossing the entire board to get into combat.

Jihallah wrote:

ph34r wrote:This is just goofy. It would be understandable for a vanilla SM player to complain that deepstriking AM isn't worth it.

But this is a BA player.

Complaining that his DoA assault marines aren't accurate enough.

...for him to land in meltarange, and he's also complaining about dieing horribly after landing. Did you read the OP, or skim through it?

Oh I read it. I've also faced enough DoA lists to know that "dieing horrible after landing" is a not as big an issue as he thinks. DoA lists win tournaments.

I am not saying that they do not win tournemants I am just saying that deepstriking is not always worth it if you arent running a full deepstrike army. If only one or two squads come in it is not hard to divert a small amount of shooting to render the unit almost useless.

Im seeing what you are doing here...

opinion: if you have drop pods (as long as you Dont fight GK) they are EPIC... (especially because yours are free).

Only free with Assault squads but yes you are correct but they can still be shot at and can't assault. But drop pods make them less vunerable to template and blast weapons whicj is always a plus.

I'm also a BA player and i can basically deep-strike my entire army.

I have Terminators (with terminator librarian)

Furisoso Dreadnaught with blood talons (and drop pod)

Two assault marine squads

And everything else gets a rhino and razorback for transport.

It's not going away, plain and simple. If anything, they'll make it more viable to armies without special rules dictating its use.

For example, necrons have, and always will get eaten by blasts when they deep strike around. Veil of darkness in the old codex made deepstriking useful, but you had to choose between shooting the immortals it was tied to, or running them to get them out of that damnable blast pattern. In the new codex, we have a lot of stuff that deep strikes on the enemy's turn, which at current is 100% useless.

This, if anything, points to them looking to mess around with deep strike rather than out-right remove it / make it useless. If it were going to become useless/removed, why put it on so much of the new necrons. Ergo, they are probably revamping it in 6th if anything...

I am not saying that they should remove it. I am just saying when less than 50% of an army is in deepstrike is it worth it to deepstrike.

redkeyboard wrote:I am not saying that they should remove it. I am just saying when less than 50% of an army is in deepstrike is it worth it to deepstrike.

If it fits into the plan, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

WanderingFox wrote:It's not going away, plain and simple. If anything, they'll make it more viable to armies without special rules dictating its use.

For example, necrons have, and always will get eaten by blasts when they deep strike around. Veil of darkness in the old codex made deepstriking useful, but you had to choose between shooting the immortals it was tied to, or running them to get them out of that damnable blast pattern. In the new codex, we have a lot of stuff that deep strikes on the enemy's turn, which at current is 100% useless.

This, if anything, points to them looking to mess around with deep strike rather than out-right remove it / make it useless. If it were going to become useless/removed, why put it on so much of the new necrons. Ergo, they are probably revamping it in 6th if anything...

Good points, plus DE is suppose to be a "6th edition codex" and their is a healthy spattering of DS special rules for them too.

I will point out that at the moment DSing on your opponets turn isn't 100% useless, but rather mostly useless . It does guarantee the reserve roll and allow you to move and assault as normal on your own turn. Its basically the same as DSing on your own turn the turn before, except you can't shoot (but for a dedicated CC unit this doesn't really matter).

I like it as a BA player. I wouldn't use Deep Striking as any other army outside of BA though. I wonder what 6th edition will bring in the way of Deep Striking.

ServoSkulls. that's the panacea.

in my case i play with GK. and they do very well with DS.
incinerators are the best option for this. St 6 is very good, specially against DE.

not really. necrons have a whol bunch of it now

redkeyboard wrote:I keep finding that deepstriking a unit just isn't worth it. Especially units like assault marines. I am a BA player and whenever I try to deepstrike I normally scatter and mishhap or end up to far away. Another big problem is theat you can't assault. And with your 10 man squad so close one Basalisk or vindicator shell and it is game over for most of the squad. Even a regualr squads shooting can normally take them down. The only unit that is ever sucsesfull for me is terminators as they can survive. But Assault squads I am not so sure about even with DOA.

So now I am asking you what you think about deepstriking. With shooting units I think it is good to pop a tank with meltas. But when your IG opponent leaves you no room to deepstrike by very cleverly spreading his troops out and putting his basilisks next to the board edge behind a building, man that was a good game, it is difficult to suceed.

Deep Striking is potentially a powerful advantage, but can be a liability as well, depending on the terrain, the army makeup and the tactics of your opponent. With careful use of "bubblewrap" tactics, an opponent can often make it so that you cannot reach his most important/valuable vehicles on the drop, at least not without running an excessively-high risk of mishap. In 5th edition with the option to voluntarily Reserve all or part of their forces, opponents can deny you the alpha strike you want, and turn the tables- making it so that they can respond to and immediately attack your Deep-Strikers right after you land them.

If your opponent has nasty blast weapons, you have a couple of options, depending on how numerous, how well protected, and how clear sight lines they are/have. If not too numerous or carefully-deployed, you may be able to just target them first to negate or reduce the threat. If they are well-protected, you may still be able to do well by Deep Striking out of their LOS, possibly behind hills or on the flanks of the enemy force. If they are well protected and have good LOS, your better bet is not to shoot on arrival, and instead Run to spread out in cover and minimize the damage they can do to you. Remember, also, that you can use both friendly and enemy vehicles for cover. After a squad lands, maybe zoom up a Rhino or LR to give them cover or block LOS to them entirely. In a recent game against IG my opponent had multiple Leman Russ tanks carefully deployed deep in his force, well-screened by other units. On one flank of his force terrain allowed me to drop a unit out of their LOS; on the other I was able to use one of my opponent's own Chimeras, which had been Immobilized, to hide my unit on the drop.

Another option for many units, of course, is simply not to Deep Strike. The decision should never be automatic. It should always be carefully made based on the opponent in question, their deployment (if known), the table in question, and the mission.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote: And don't forget to use your DoA reroll to keep things off the table as long as possible.

You cannot use the reroll to keep things off the table. Check your codex: you can only reroll *failed* reserves rolls with the DoA ability.

No foul, DaddyWarcrimes--three posters in this thread made the same mistake, and so has just about every BA player I've ever played. Because the going second and starting in reserve trick is one of my favorites, I wind up having to show BA players the rule in their own codex very regularly.

I also play a non-BA army with a lot of assault marines, but I never deepstrike them. Mostly because they can't have melta, but jump pack marines deploying on the tabletop can be in the opponent's grill on turn 2 anyway, without having to depend on the randomness of reserve rolls.

Drop Pod Assault is a little annoying, if you're opponent chooses to go all Reserve, then they can get a free shot at whatever comes in.

With BA, though, you can re-roll failed Reserve dice, so most (if not all) of your units are coming in when you want them.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you also only scatter 1D6? That should be plenty of leeway, scatter wise.

EDIT: ninja corrected by Flavius!

Myself, I've been using an all Deepstriking list with my Tyranids, and I haven't had any issues with it. Of course, Spods have all the advantages of Drop Pods without the "drawback" of Drop Pod Assault, so maybe I'm spoiled.

Deep striking is useless now with Grey Knights having 60% of armies taken to tournaments because of their ' You can not deep strike with in 12'' next to us or you will mishap rule'

Being given first turn as BA is easy. You don't HAVE to deepstrike. With 24" movement and two run moves you can get into an excellent position to tear apart the piecemeal army that comes in if they choose to reserve EVERYTHING. I'd reserve Vanguard and that's it.

If they don't, they have one turn of shooting against a wall of T4 3+ with FNP, which is pretty much where you're at as DOA anyway.

Monoliths deap strike EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DE Spider thing web portal asdf.-...
is treated as deep strike?. i ask this because of Coteaz, and GK Earthquake.

Haflpast_Yellow, my sentiments exactly. My DoA playing buddy has done this a million times.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote: And don't forget to use your DoA reroll to keep things off the table as long as possible.

You cannot use the reroll to keep things off the table. Check your codex: you can only reroll *failed* reserves rolls with the DoA ability.

No foul, DaddyWarcrimes--three posters in this thread made the same mistake, and so has just about every BA player I've ever played. Because the going second and starting in reserve trick is one of my favorites, I wind up having to show BA players the rule in their own codex very regularly.

I also play a non-BA army with a lot of assault marines, but I never deepstrike them. Mostly because they can't have melta, but jump pack marines deploying on the tabletop can be in the opponent's grill on turn 2 anyway, without having to depend on the randomness of reserve rolls.

I stand corrected.

I do like the idea of bouncing forward for two turns, and hanging out in two clusters in the middle of each of your opponent's table quarters, ready to use your third turn to engage anything he drives onto the board.

Wow, tons of advice here....

Hmmm, Grey Nights ruin the fun in deepstrike, YES.

Dante is worth the points if you do it right, YES.

Truth: Without using your chapters specual abilities for Deep Striking, ALL your Deep Strikes will be GAMBLES. Just like using Febious Bile, Possessed Space Marines, and Spawns.

When used with chapters specual Deep striking abilities, it is no longer a gamble but a tactic. Less units on the board before the game starts; the more suprises in store for your enemy. Drop Pods get are anoying with a free storm bolter in the back and cover for your dread on the turn he comes in. Assaulting turn one is a great way to ruin your enemies plan, and the more you kill turn one the bigger advantage you will have turn 2.

For my scouts I use scout bike with homer and come in with melta storms. The bike infaltrates and can turbo boost behind any tank, then the meltas can blow it while the CC scouts tie up the force for a turn or two.

Deepstriking should grant a cover save of 4+ on the turn that unit comes in. If vehicles get it for moving from one position where you saw them and then move to another position and you saw it the whole time, why shouldn't deep strikers get it?

Turbo boosting/flat out sacrifice firing. Deep striking doesn't.

I think that deep strike is an incredible annoyance. Seriously, you drop a set of marines down, and if he wants to be in good range he has to draw the attention of short ranged weapons from whoever he is targeting.
The best way to defeat Necrons, for example, is assault, but when you deep strike your precious DoA assault squad close enough to get there, every single weapon is going to be blasting you. Your squad of marines is most likely to be obliterated, and there is no way around that until next turn.
As a rule, I think you should be allowed to make assaults on the turn you arrive, but you have to roll Dangerous terrain for it. This would make DS worthwhile.