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BlapBlapBlap wrote:I think that deep strike is an incredible annoyance. Seriously, you drop a set of marines down, and if he wants to be in good range he has to draw the attention of short ranged weapons from whoever he is targeting.
The best way to defeat Necrons, for example, is assault, but when you deep strike your precious DoA assault squad close enough to get there, every single weapon is going to be blasting you. Your squad of marines is most likely to be obliterated, and there is no way around that until next turn.
As a rule, I think you should be allowed to make assaults on the turn you arrive, but you have to roll Dangerous terrain for it. This would make DS worthwhile.

They can't turn every gun on every unit.

A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

It's better if you can buy wargear that makes it so that deepstrikes don't scatter. You're gonna be shot at the turn you arive anyway, might as well arrive precisely where you want to.

If you only deepstrike 1 or 2 squads then yeah, they'll get blasted. The idea is to drop an entire army in your opponents lap and force them to deal with it.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

As a frequent Daemon player I have learned to love the art of DS.

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

If you take a look at Mannanhin's post above, you'll see that it's possible to deepstrike using terrain and positioning in such a way that your opponent can't shoot you very well, but you're still in position to strike in your own turn. Enemy vehicles, enemy units, even your own drop pods can all provide cover for a skillful deepstrike. The rules and wargear that limit or eliminate scatter are the tools that let you go to that magic spot where you'll do the most damage.

Or, if there is no perfect spot, you can always deepstrike conservatively. I do this all the time with my IG stormtroopers--if I can melta a rifleman in the back, then that's worth the risk (and the loss of the unit). But if not, then might as well drop out of LoS and then move up into position next turn.

In the dark days of 4th edition before widespread deepstriking was available, the game was dominated by boring gunline armies. Deepstrike as it currently exists counterbalances the strength of gunlines.

I think your forgetting combat squadding and running in the shooting phase.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

DakkaDakka wrote:

I personally prefer Outflanking, I find it extremely useful. I recently played a game where I kept everything that could out flank in reserves. I got them all in on turn 2 (lucky). Completely surrounded the enemy!

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

And Daemons...

I run a mono-tzeentch list a lot.

Very shooty, sucks at CC

Mono-Khorne suck at shooting though

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

And Daemons...

Tzeentch power!!!!

I too use mono Tzeentch alot.

Ascalam wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

And Daemons...

I run a mono-tzeentch list a lot.

Very shooty, sucks at CC

Mono-Khorne suck at shooting though

I was about to say the same thing People always seem so shocked when I pick up two handsful of dice during the shooting phase.

Although I do add some Slaanesh for a lil bit o CC. Pavaning DPs do wonders for your Flamers

DakkaDakka wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Fafnir wrote:At which point, you're investing over 500 points just to pop a single vehicle and then lose it all to a blast marker on the opponent's turn.

Dante and 5 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns is 325 points. If he nerfs the enemy's beatstick and blows up his ride, I'd call that a good investment. Then he's going to need to spend a lot of shooting to kill the 5 Assault Marines (even more than normal because Dante can save some hits) before finishing Dante off with a S8 hit. I'm not saying he'll survive, just that he'll absorb at least his point's worth of shooting before he dies. Even if the enemy lobs a perfect Battlecannon, Dante will survive. Whatever you send to take him out is going to be more than 100 points. 3 Obliterators pumping the squad full of Plasmacannons: Dante will still survive, and you'll need to finish him off.

You do realise that the 2nd melta-gun is only unlocked when you have 10man squads.

Che-Vito wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

And Daemons...

I run a mono-tzeentch list a lot.

Very shooty, sucks at CC

Mono-Khorne suck at shooting though

Aw, sorry sweetheart.

I run Khorne/Slaanesh.
It either gets hosed down pretty quickly, or survives to beat face.

Sweetheart huh oookay then....

I've seen a mono-khorne list walk through gunlines and artillery with token casualties. No denying that they're effective, if the dice are on your side.. Khorne/Slaanesh can also be vicious if the dice are on your side (Rending FTW )

That said it's hilarious to have someone ignore the two units of flamers that deepstruck in their faces, chuckling about how only Fatecrusher or Mono-khorne is 'competitive' , then bug his eyes out as they obliterate his termies or his deathstar unit

I sometimes mix a little khorne, slaanesh or nurgle into my Tzeentch, but Tzeentch is the only one i like to play as a mono list. It isn't really the most competitive option out there, but it appeals to me.

Tzeentch is almost certainly the most competitive general-purpose option currently. The shooty Daemon stuff isn't nearly as screwed by Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:If you take a look at Mannanhin's post above, you'll see that it's possible to deepstrike using terrain and positioning in such a way that your opponent can't shoot you very well, but you're still in position to strike in your own turn. Enemy vehicles, enemy units, even your own drop pods can all provide cover for a skillful deepstrike. The rules and wargear that limit or eliminate scatter are the tools that let you go to that magic spot where you'll do the most damage.

Or, if there is no perfect spot, you can always deepstrike conservatively. I do this all the time with my IG stormtroopers--if I can melta a rifleman in the back, then that's worth the risk (and the loss of the unit). But if not, then might as well drop out of LoS and then move up into position next turn.

Exactly. If there's nowhere at all to land without getting shot to pieces, then either your opponent has totally outdeployed you, or there is too little LOS-blocking terrain on the table, or both.

I have come around to the idea of deepstriking. In 5th edition there are so many vehicles that deep striking can be a way to get a unit into the enemy backfield.

My current BA list is heavy on mech with one unit of assault marines with jumppacks, priest and a librarian. My own mech will engage the enemy in a firefight. This will create a dishelved enemy formation and disembarked units in the enemy backfield. I will almost always deep strike the assault marine unit into the enemy backfield. If I don't want them to get to close, I can drop them farther back and hit a unit with the librarians Fear the Darkness power.

The BA drop is far safer with only 1d6 scatter and the librarians Fear power gives me a longer range threat on units like Paladins and Long Fangs.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Beerhammer 40000 (proof) for the win

Mono- nurgle can really soak the damage, but it's too damn slow to do any in return. I've tried it a couple of times, but it always ended with me being outmaneuvered and shot up, especially against eldar of either variety...

Ascalam wrote:Beerhammer 40000 (proof) for the win

Mono- nurgle can really soak the damage, but it's too damn slow to do any in return. I've tried it a couple of times, but it always ended with me being outmaneuvered and shot up, especially against eldar of either variety...

Mono Nurgle just isn't good. Ever. Take a few Nurgl-y units and park them on an objective, then khorne them to death.

ph34r wrote:This is just goofy. It would be understandable for a vanilla SM player to complain that deepstriking AM isn't worth it.

But this is a BA player.

Complaining that his DoA assault marines aren't accurate enough.

QFT - Add in what a 3 - 5, sanguinary priests, oh and the fact the BA's get lots of Melta and Melta pistol options. They land, relatively intact, maybe losing one or two model to Dangerous terrain tests. They have what maybe, sanguinary guard, maybe a Librarian with a jump pack. They melta your back line any vehicles there (unless they are in reserve, so instead when they roll on they get melta'd with their 12" jump range). Then they have FNP so even 50% of the wounds you put on them get ignored (Standfast double strength and PW attacks etc).

Deepstriking is very much alive and kicking, in the tournaments I go to, especially if you run with Locator Beacons on Drop Pods, Tac squads or Bikers.

Deep striking can be risky, but in the right sort of scenario it can be quite strong. The thing is that unless you can make their arrival more reliable by turn (adding or subtracting to reserve rolls) then it can be risky to dedicate more than 10% of the point value to deep striking.

spyguyyoda wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:A lot of guns will be shot at you however, and there is no escaping that truth.

A lot of guns will be shot any ANY unit regardless of circumstances. That's called wh40k.

The point is that any DS unit will be shot by weaponary of all kinds, including short ranged ones (Meltaguns, Flamers, Bolt Pistols)
If you're fighting a shooty army (Think Tau) then you have to come up and deal with them if your short ranged weapons are going to see any use.

...They're ALL shooty armies, barring perhaps nids.

And Daemons...

I run a mono-tzeentch list a lot.

Very shooty, sucks at CC

Mono-Khorne suck at shooting though

I was about to say the same thing People always seem so shocked when I pick up two handsful of dice during the shooting phase.

Although I do add some Slaanesh for a lil bit o CC. Pavaning DPs do wonders for your Flamers

Even funnier when your 18-strong horror squad hides the changeling! Your opponent *has* to get rid of that threat, (or else eat 54/ap4 shots to the face), but does he *really* trust the dice to be on his side for thos Ld tests!?!

I wouldnt say mono nurlge is terrible, epedemius certainly makes the nurglies quite good if you get the kills up.

Biggest thing is getting out manouvered and lack of shooting, hence my preference for mono tzeentch over nurgle.

redkeyboard wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Fafnir wrote:At which point, you're investing over 500 points just to pop a single vehicle and then lose it all to a blast marker on the opponent's turn.

Dante and 5 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns is 325 points. If he nerfs the enemy's beatstick and blows up his ride, I'd call that a good investment. Then he's going to need to spend a lot of shooting to kill the 5 Assault Marines (even more than normal because Dante can save some hits) before finishing Dante off with a S8 hit. I'm not saying he'll survive, just that he'll absorb at least his point's worth of shooting before he dies. Even if the enemy lobs a perfect Battlecannon, Dante will survive. Whatever you send to take him out is going to be more than 100 points. 3 Obliterators pumping the squad full of Plasmacannons: Dante will still survive, and you'll need to finish him off.

You do realise that the 2nd melta-gun is only unlocked when you have 10man squads.

Aye, but the Emperor gave you Combat Squads.

personally i think if your going to deepstrike keep a few things in mind.

- do with units that have a good amount of effective ranged shooting. good BS, high shots, melta/plasma etc.
- do so with more then 1 unit!

for example, a single drop pod is not much threat. but drop 5 of them, and suddenly you have a pretty good force of marines blasting away. same for terminaters. a single squad wont do much, and is pretty much suicide unit. but 3 or 4 units of termies teleporting into the enemy ranks not only gets you within 24" but helps mitigate return fire.

DONT deepstrike assault units. unless they have some way of making an assault after deepstriking. showing up that close to enemy without having anything to do the turn of arrival is sucky. even en masse, your likley to suffer a lot of casualties. at least ranged units can do some alpha strike damage before they get shot back.