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I keep finding that deepstriking a unit just isn't worth it. Especially units like assault marines. I am a BA player and whenever I try to deepstrike I normally scatter and mishhap or end up to far away. Another big problem is theat you can't assault. And with your 10 man squad so close one Basalisk or vindicator shell and it is game over for most of the squad. Even a regualr squads shooting can normally take them down. The only unit that is ever sucsesfull for me is terminators as they can survive. But Assault squads I am not so sure about even with DOA.

So now I am asking you what you think about deepstriking. With shooting units I think it is good to pop a tank with meltas. But when your IG opponent leaves you no room to deepstrike by very cleverly spreading his troops out and putting his basilisks next to the board edge behind a building, man that was a good game, it is difficult to suceed.

So what do you think?

Try using Dante with a squad carrying meltas-no deviation.

Dont like Dante he isnt worth his points.

redkeyboard wrote:Dont like Dante he isnt worth his points.

I'm sorry that's just a bit hilarious to me. He specifically counters a mechanic of the game that has been so detrimental to you you are debating never doing it again, but he's "not worth his points"? He's one of a very small minority of characters/units that can be placed, with his unit, on a 2" strip of board directly behind (insert nasty vehicle threat hear). That ability alone should be worth the 100 points or so of dead vehicle it virtually guarantees you to take out.




To your point though, I do think DS needs to be tweaked. Personally I think it should be 2D6 choice the highest, with DoA being change to 2d^ choose the lowest, or something like that.

Eh, if they just gave a 3" consolidation move RIGHT after deepstriking, it would be much better balanced.

As it is now, you have the choice of spreading out, or firing and being template bait next turn.

As a daemons player I have no problems with deepstriking. Yes, my units mishap once and a while, but for the most part things don't end horribly.

Umm Redkeyboard the point is that Dante with no scatter melta deepstrike IS worth his points. Hence why Deep strike is also good for some units.

Units/armies that deepstrike and are worth it:
Drop pods
Chaos marines (daemons/oblits/termicide, icons work like homers)
Chaos daemons (whole army based only on deepstrike)
Deathwing (scouting teleport homers)
Decent of Angels (only scatter 1d6, good close combat and lots of melta access)

While there are some other units that can deep strike, the ones above function all the way up to the army level. Of course you have space marines with gate of infinity deepstrike, necrons with veil/ghostwalk mantle, tau with pathfinder guided crisis suits, GK with Mordrak+libby and/or gk strike squads, and other even less common builds like Duke Sliscus deepstriking venoms/raiders/ravagers.

So deepstriking is not a dying art by any means, its just you have to understand the power and limitations to deepstriking, and what wargear/special rules your army has to enhance deepstrike.

Really the only thing that annoys deepstriking right now is Warp quake spam. Grey Knights can potentially make the entire board unsafe to deepstrike on, which means that armies like Daemons who must deepstrike can be prevented from even playing the game of 40k. That mechanic is SO TERRIBLE that it has driven some players I know from the game, because its not possible to have fun if your army prevents your opponents army from ever playing the game, and your opponent can do nothing to change the situation.

Dante is definitely worth it if you build a squad tailored to his ability to negate scatter. My favorite was always Dante with an honor guard squad with jump packs and 4 plasma guns or 2 melta guns/2 plasma guns. If there was a land raider on the field that NEEDED to die, my honor guard would do the job. Then I would ensure I had some RAS standing by to charge whatever came out of the land raider for an extremely effective assault phase.

Yes, Dante is expensive. But if you design around him and tailor 1-2 units to his abilities, he can be very useful.

Deep Striking is a lost art in my opinion. I used to really avoid it at all costs, as I always seemed to scatter and mishap. I researched the topic, and I apologize I don't have a link for you, and found a great thread on bolter and chainsword that mathematically explained how to DS. It boiled down to I was simply choosing incorrect distance and direction when DS'ing my units, resulting in poor results. I always had the urge to DS in a spot that, if I rolled a hit, would have been damning for my opponent, but I never did roll a hit :/ and I would scatter into oblivion. In a nutshell, the math analysis involved analyzing the size of arc that an enemy model or unit represented to the DS'ing unit and the distance between said unit and target. What makes DOA so useful to BA is the reduction in a whole D6 greatly reduces the chance of wrongly estimating the chances of scattering into mishap range. For instance- if you need to destroy a rhino tank, try landing behind it. Aside from the obvious weak rear armor, the arc of threat to mishapping on top of it is relatively small (as the back of a rhino is thin) when compared to all of the other directions the squad could scatter to and be unharmed (ie directly away from the tank). Compared to DS'ing the squad on the flank of the rhino, which represents an arc of maybe 50% threat, the chances of scattering in a direction landing you on top of the rhino are greatly increased. Now consider distance from the target- assume you have a MG in that squad. Clearly you want to be within 6" to maximize use of this weapon. This is where DOA comes in handy- pick a point within melta range of the rhino and chances or good (on 1 D6) that you won't scatter too far out of range. I would choose to DS maybe 2" behind the rhino (or whatever depending on squad size...just make sure you can arrange your DS models so they end 1" away from the tank and that last model can be placed close enough into melta range), since chances are small the scatter arrow will drive me onto the rhino, and chances are high it will scatter me in a direction further from the rhino. But thats ok, because now we are hoping to roll a 4 or less on 1 D6 which, at no matter what angle from the tank, will keep us in melta range. For example, if I scatter left or right of the rear of the tank, and back 4" or less in either direction, I'll still be within effective range. Or I could land due backwards to the 6 O' Clock direction, and if I roll a 4 or less, I'm still in range. And a 4 or less on D6 are decent odds.

Although this is by no means a garuantee that DS will never result in mishaps, it should help you consider ways of lowering the risk of DS by just simply taking a step back and conducting some tried-and-true analysis of the situation.

That being said, things like Drop Pods also solve most (if not at all) of people's issues with Deep Striking and should be utilized if you still are not convinced or comfortable.

Sorry for the soapbox, I just really like the mathhammer behind stuff like deep striking!

OIF knight, while you make a good point, is there a way to make a diagram describing your arc?

Another point is that when placing models in a circle, knowing where to place your guns is huge. IE, if you scatter back, then the meltas go on the ring closer to the enemy. If you are on the enemies side, placing your guns to closer to the rear can often give them rear armor arc.

I dont use a lot of deep striking units, but I love my Drop pods. Yes, it is a fiddly rule but i dont think its gonna die.

I find Imperial Guard storm troopers with the "airborne" mission are good at deep-striking, too. I use them all the time.

Deep striking Legionares are NASTY. Put a plasma gun and missile launcher in there, a 10 man relentless squad with 3+ invulns? Say hello to a shooting palooza wherever you land.

My brother uses this on me every game, then he uses a librarian to blink them around the board, NASTY mobile fire platform.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:Dont like Dante he isnt worth his points.

I'm sorry that's just a bit hilarious to me. He specifically counters a mechanic of the game that has been so detrimental to you you are debating never doing it again, but he's "not worth his points"? He's one of a very small minority of characters/units that can be placed, with his unit, on a 2" strip of board directly behind (insert nasty vehicle threat hear). That ability alone should be worth the 100 points or so of dead vehicle it virtually guarantees you to take out.

At which point, you're investing over 500 points just to pop a single vehicle and then lose it all to a blast marker on the opponent's turn.

Dante is rarely worth it. His deep strike ability is awesome, but the costs associated with it are just way too high to make it viable.

He's really only vulnerable if you don't support him properly. Drop him and his Honour Guard to hit one target, hit the lower prkority vehicles with dropped ASM squads, and engage a counterattck threat with Vanguards.

DoA relies on saturation, just like any other spam list, though. Drop one squad alone and they are meat. Drop 6 or 8 combat squads with good FNP coverage, and pick your landing zones riht and it works just fine.

OIF knight, while you make a good point, is there a way to make a diagram describing your arc?

here you go, this demonstrates the threat arc theory. Although it may seem obvious to most, it wasn't to me, and a simple visual diagram made me realize why I kept mishapping onto tanks/models. In the small arc picture, there is a small chance of the arrow pointing towards the tank and thus remotely possibly causing a mishap. The large threat arc offers a much larger chance of the arrow landing towards the tank.

The idea behind distance to the target can also be seen

Fafnir wrote:At which point, you're investing over 500 points just to pop a single vehicle and then lose it all to a blast marker on the opponent's turn.

Dante and 5 Assault Marines with 2 Meltaguns is 325 points. If he nerfs the enemy's beatstick and blows up his ride, I'd call that a good investment. Then he's going to need to spend a lot of shooting to kill the 5 Assault Marines (even more than normal because Dante can save some hits) before finishing Dante off with a S8 hit. I'm not saying he'll survive, just that he'll absorb at least his point's worth of shooting before he dies. Even if the enemy lobs a perfect Battlecannon, Dante will survive. Whatever you send to take him out is going to be more than 100 points. 3 Obliterators pumping the squad full of Plasmacannons: Dante will still survive, and you'll need to finish him off.

For all the Dante haters... dont forget hit and run! I actually prefer Dante with a troop of 10 assault marines with a priest and libby in tow. You want a libby anyway, you want a priest anyway, and 10 ASM is not that expensive and very survivable plus scoring. Now that it has hit and run, you can bound through the enemy, or just use it to get more furious charge rounds of combat.

Fafnir wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

redkeyboard wrote:Dont like Dante he isnt worth his points.

I'm sorry that's just a bit hilarious to me. He specifically counters a mechanic of the game that has been so detrimental to you you are debating never doing it again, but he's "not worth his points"? He's one of a very small minority of characters/units that can be placed, with his unit, on a 2" strip of board directly behind (insert nasty vehicle threat hear). That ability alone should be worth the 100 points or so of dead vehicle it virtually guarantees you to take out.

At which point, you're investing over 500 points just to pop a single vehicle and then lose it all to a blast marker on the opponent's turn.

Dante is rarely worth it. His deep strike ability is awesome, but the costs associated with it are just way too high to make it viable.

You mean you DSed Dante and didn't kill the Pie Plate Launcher? Ooops, I would say that's a good case of your doing it wrong.

As others have stated, a well designed DoA army will eliminate its top 3 or 4 threats the turn it arrive. The fact that you can basically "start the game" with a good chunk of your opponents list already dead is what give DSing so much potential (particularly with the BAs).

DS armies have trouble against smart opponents who start in reserve. That is their true weakness. It is even worse for DS armies, if their opponent wins the role, makes them DS army go first, and then chooses to start in reserve. Now the DS army's units have nothing to fire at when they drop, and they can be manuevered around as the opposing units enter the table far from them. Worst of all, it exposes the DS army to enemy firepower, before they get kill anything, basically reversing the DS army's alpha strike capability onto itself.

This makes DS far more valuable as an addition to units that start on the table, that it does as a pure DS list. IF you can start a decent amount heavies, or other long range firepowwer on the table, it makes it much harder for your opponent to start in reseve against you. Coming in piece-mail and getting shot up by all that longe range firepower must now me wieghed against the benefit of forcing DS units to come in first.

SO, against savvy opponts, the key to making DS work is all about balance in you list.

DoA is a top/high tier list for a reason, they always deploy very close to the best possible position for them to deploy in, early enough in the game to make a difference. If your opponent still has pie plate droppers after your guys drop, they are at least without the good ones.

Armless Failure wrote:DoA is a top/high tier list for a reason, they always deploy very close to the best possible position for them to deploy in, early enough in the game to make a difference. If your opponent still has pie plate droppers after your guys drop, they are at least without the good ones.

Again...unless the opponent starts in reserve. DoA w/o any targets to hit as it comes in, especially if it has to go first, typically gets shot off the table, espeically if you are unfortunate enough to get stuck with your heavy hitters on the table before the enmey comes in. BA rerolling reserves can help, but if your dice are not with you on those reserve rolls, DoA can get massacred by a smart opponent who begins in reserve.

I'd say Dante is worth the extra 100pts for his deathmask alone... What's that mr.ork player, you have a kan wall protected by a KFF? Okay, your big mek has only 1 wound now! (proceed to DS a drop pod next to him, then kans suddenly shake as their cover senses stop tinggling...)

Or else you can effective neuter an otherwise superior IC by nerfing his initiative and WS.
Then you get the added bonuses of 100% safe deep striking for an entire squad, plus hit and run fun which allows you to get the furious charge bonus of a sanguinary priest every turn...

Dante by his stats & personal combat abilities isn't worth his cost. Dante for how he synergises with the BA's assaulty playbook and being able to gimp any enemy IC is probably a bit too cheap for his cost!



As a daemons player, I can only wish I could have a Dante-type character... And really, if daemons can still win games when the entire army is forced to deep strike, I'd say the rules are decent enough. (warp quake shouldn't exist however!!! )

Alerian wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:DoA is a top/high tier list for a reason, they always deploy very close to the best possible position for them to deploy in, early enough in the game to make a difference. If your opponent still has pie plate droppers after your guys drop, they are at least without the good ones.

Again...unless the opponent starts in reserve. DoA w/o any targets to hit as it comes in, especially if it has to go first, typically gets shot off the table, espeically if you are unfortunate enough to get stuck with your heavy hitters on the table before the enmey comes in. BA rerolling reserves can help, but if your dice are not with you on those reserve rolls, DoA can get massacred by a smart opponent who begins in reserve.

You're both starting in reserve and letting die rolls decide when things come into play, but you get to reroll the dice that decide when you come in. You have a big advantage, you have a reasonable chance of deciding when your guy drops. Your opponent starting in reserves is smart, but your tactics already have a built in work around.

If your opponent reserved everything you have great mobility to get any where in one or two turns. You have an 18 inch assault range. That's 3 feet across. Two units cover the majority of the board. You can also use cover when you come in too defend before attacking next turn. Also use vets to assault when they deepstrike to take out threats such as pie plates.

Does anyone deepstrike/use deepstrike to get somewhere that isn't in the enemies grill? Daemons exception of course. With my wolves use two derp pod dreads (AC/DCCW:HF) in their half of the board, but only a bit forward from the midline usually. They've worked great for me dictating the flow of battle, and forcing my opponents to deal with them whilst the rest of the army moves up into a more effective range. I found that by derping them into the enemies line, your asking for 1) alot of firepower 2) meltaguns. 12" range. 6" meltagun. Would YOU like to be the dread who gets dropped in front of one? 3) if they don't get wrecked/destroyed/immobolized and weap destroyed, they get charged by either a) something that can and will hurt it or b) a tarpit.

The problem with dropping in their face is that every thing they have can be pointed at you. Dropping midfield still helps provide the distraction and the target saturation of 4 AV12 targets -except those pieces of armor suddenly aren't in metla range! Especially with a unit that can have a decent effect on the enemy in CC and still reach out and touch the enemy, midfield dropping has worked so much better for me than dropping in their face.

Jihallah wrote:Does anyone deepstrike/use deepstrike to get somewhere that isn't in the enemies grill?

My Main Army (SoB) Doesn't deepstrike, but my secondary (BA), what unit with deepstrike in their entire codex that can deepstrike, would want to be anywhere else.

Most units with the ability want to be your Grill. Marine drop pods tend to buck this trend somewhat, since you can drop half your list with those. I could see loading up a devastator squad/TL/LC + Missile Dread in one and having them placed in a perfect spot, but beyond that, I see deepstriking as a surprise knife in the back.

deep striking one guy is usually meaning that he's bolterr bait and if you use your men as suicide units, it's not a bad trade off.

The key is to deep strike I've found is to deep strike and push with ALOT of guys at the other end. Target saturation with jump troops moving in along with some backfield action will force people to decide what they want to shoot at and that means rear armor shots next round as well as buy time for one side or the other to close in for the choppy choppy.

It'd be easy to decide to shoot your one assault marine squad. How about deciding to shoot that or the storm raven x2 that are moving flat out and will be comming into assault range next turn?

Armless Failure wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Does anyone deepstrike/use deepstrike to get somewhere that isn't in the enemies grill?

My Main Army (SoB) Doesn't deepstrike, but my secondary (BA), what unit with deepstrike in their entire codex that can deepstrike, would want to be anywhere else.

Most units with the ability want to be your Grill. Marine drop pods tend to buck this trend somewhat, since you can drop half your list with those. I could see loading up a devastator squad/TL/LC + Missile Dread in one and having them placed in a perfect spot, but beyond that, I see deepstriking as a surprise knife in the back.

Yes, a "surprise" knife in the back that you declare to your enemy at the start of the game.

You do realize you could drop midfield with a unit like the above dread, that can reach out and touch enemies but still be a CC threat, get the enemy to shuffle forward to you, then deepstrike behind them to knife them in the back?

The reason I can drop two derp pods at the start, as ya'll should know, is because there has to be a third one, which I'm surprised no one picked up on. 8GH, 1 WG, 1 RP, one pod of shenanigans

That is tactics, in a game when you must tell your opponent your going to stick a knife in their back.

DakkaDakka wrote:

This is just goofy. It would be understandable for a vanilla SM player to complain that deepstriking AM isn't worth it.

But this is a BA player.

Complaining that his DoA assault marines aren't accurate enough.