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Armless Failure wrote:Also DCA don't quite compare to:
3*Acolyte with meltagun in las/plas 'back or psyback, and adding a Jokearo if they're feeling froggy.

I would crap myself if I were against someone ran 6 of those in a coteaz list. That being said, running that list makes you a terrible person, but still nasty. and even one of those units is a deathstar for cheap, and under Coteaz it can hold objectives.

this is the base of my croteze list, also goodies are.
-3 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera with an inquisitor+psioccolum and techmarine w/ beamer, nothing like dropping BS10 plasma cannons and a beamer on a librarians deathstar
-many, many rifle dreads, I run 5
-interceptors to deal with things you dont or can't shoot up

it is a seriously vicious army, ive almost wiped out armies (weak ones that is) in one shooting phase >.>

Armless Failure wrote:Also DCA don't quite compare to:
3*Acolyte with meltagun in las/plas 'back or psyback, and adding a Jokearo if they're feeling froggy.

I would crap myself if I were against someone ran 6 of those in a coteaz list. That being said, running that list makes you a terrible person, but still nasty. and even one of those units is a deathstar for cheap, and under Coteaz it can hold objectives.

Really? Oh noes, Razorback spam. If any of those vehicles get blown, the 3 guys inside will lose at least one guy and potentially fail their morale check. Those are not solid troops choices.

pretre wrote:Oh noes, Razorback spam. If any of those vehicles get blown, the 3 guys inside will lose at least one guy and potentially fail their morale check. Those are not solid troops choices.

The trick to this is padding out the squad with a few stormbolter, hotshot lasguns, or empty bodies.

ColdSadHungry wrote:On a slight side note, do DCA HAVE to be female?

Nah. Even if the fluff said they did, which it doesn't, they still wouldn't have to be.

I made my DCA out of Fantasy Wood Elves and Cadian parts. Pretty much like the Tanith conversions floating around here on dakka, except with swords instead of guns...

I love the Death Cult assassin. I have 2 squads of them both in a Stormraven, one unit with a Techmarine and they other with Corteaz. Very cheap for 15 points, with PW, I6, str 4 and WS 5 w/4 attacks on the charge. They are great going against other Gk players that has Terminer in their list. Plus I used my 3rd edition DE Wyches models for Death Cults.

I think that people are missing a rather important point with DCAs. Do you REALLY need to cause 20+ PW wounds? No, almost never when you are going as fast as DCA. Also use the LRC so you get grenades the turn you disembark. Fixes issue with transport being shot up and the grenade issue (stopping a GK LRC is very hard to do).

Run 3-5 DCAs, then some crusaders to soak wounds, and maybe some SW shooting guys so the unit can handle anything. The nice thing about Inq squads is they are very customizable. Add the rad grenade hammerhand inquisitor (who gets a good weapon of his own for the upgrade IIRC) and you have a nasty handle anything unit for a reasonable cost. Sure LRs are expensive, but the crusader can almost hold its own in mobile FP (due to defensive weapons and PotMS and MM/Assault Cannon combo). The unit should draw quite a bit of attention, but GKs still have dreads and other nasty things to worry about that won't be getting shot up if the enemy focuses on a LR (not the best plan TBH, but I've made it work enough times to see the merit in a hard to stop LR distraction).

notabot187 wrote:I think that people are missing a rather important point with DCAs. Do you REALLY need to cause 20+ PW wounds? No, almost never when you are going as fast as DCA. Also use the LRC so you get grenades the turn you disembark. Fixes issue with transport being shot up and the grenade issue (stopping a GK LRC is very hard to do).

Yes.
Keep in mind that 20 PW attacks (5 DCA as you recommend) sounds cool until you hit a big squad or even a small squad with T5 or above. Those 5 DCA and Crusaders will get plastered by a Boy Squad or TWC , etc. Not to mention more DCA mean you can lose a couple and still be functional. I run 7 DCA, 2 Crusaders and Uriah. Generally I can take out two to three good-sized squads before running out of steam. GK Players don't get the +1 Att/FNP so need to be even more careful to kill multiple targets.

pretre wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I think that people are missing a rather important point with DCAs. Do you REALLY need to cause 20+ PW wounds? No, almost never when you are going as fast as DCA. Also use the LRC so you get grenades the turn you disembark. Fixes issue with transport being shot up and the grenade issue (stopping a GK LRC is very hard to do).

Yes.
Keep in mind that 20 PW attacks (5 DCA as you recommend) sounds cool until you hit a big squad or even a small squad with T5 or above. Those 5 DCA and Crusaders will get plastered by a Boy Squad or TWC , etc. Not to mention more DCA mean you can lose a couple and still be functional. I run 7 DCA, 2 Crusaders and Uriah. Generally I can take out two to three good-sized squads before running out of steam. GK Players don't get the +1 Att/FNP so need to be even more careful to kill multiple targets.

With rad grenades and hammer hand the DCAs wound T5 on 3s. Wounding TMC on 4s is not something nid players like. Running PW squads into full boyz squads or good invul squads is not a good idea either (though most TWC don't go all out on shields anymore, and the DCA actually do well point for point... and the Inquisitor might even do something nice with his weapon due to rad grenades).

Also your squad is from the WD SoB? Different army, what the Codex:GK inq does for the squad is not something to be underestimated.

notabot187 wrote:Also your squad is from the WD SoB? Different army, what the Codex:GK inq does for the squad is not something to be underestimated.

Actually, the GK Inq is pretty similar to what Uriah does for a squad. Uriah gives +1 Attack, Stubborn, Rerolls on the Charge and FNP to the squad for 90 points. A Xenos inquisitor can give +1 Str, -1 Toughness and Stubborn for 70 Points.

Rads and Hammerhand are cooler, but only work for one phase (Rads) or need to be cast (HH). Uriah's stuff is always on (and cannot fail fast, perils, be hooded, shadows or runed) and FNP dramatically reduces the need for Crusaders in the squad, allowing you to go more offensive. Not to mention Uriah's rerolls on the charge mean that 8/9 of those 20-30 attacks are hitting.

Uriah buffs + lack of any other decent counter charge units in C:SoB are the main reason why SoB is much more likely to run a bunch of them. C:SoB has 2 melee units, and 1 of them always strikes last and is toughness 3 with only a 6++, the other is Ecclesiarchal warband, which since Uriah is THE HQ of the SoB, you have access to at least one, 2 if you like Krynov. Unnamed confessors are so outclassed it's sick.

That and the fact that a Uriah Bomb is disgustingly effective. It is rare that I don't get a charge off with them (generally because my opponent pours their army at that one rhino) and when I do, they kill everything. So far, the only close combat I lost with them was when I charged a Greater Daemon and didn't kill it. In the subsequent turn, a Chaos Lord, Sorceror, 6 Noise Marines and 5 CSM charged my Bomb. We took a chunk out of them, but did die.

Siphen wrote:Topic explains it all. I'm not going to go on a rant or anything, but they're pretty ridiculous.

I know they can get shot to death without much trouble, but stick them in a Land Raider or Storm Raven. I'm sure this isn't the "best" setup for them, but just think about this unit:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
- PA
- Rad Grenades
- Psyker with Hammerhand
10 Death Cult Assassins

That should come to 228 points. Slightly more than a Terminator Squad. On the charge, that would be ~22 power weapon wounds (on average) against T4 models, striking at Initiative 6. Against T3 models, all the hits will ID them...so things like Scarabs and Ripper Swarms can't soak the wounds. If anything could possibly live through that, they all have 5+ invulnerable saves. To top everything off, they don't take up a slot in your FOC.

I know they're probably not as good as they seem on paper...but even if they're half as good as they seem, I would expect to see them more often. So the big question of the topic - why are DCA's so rare in Grey Knight lists?

GK players (of which I am one) don't use them for two main reasons: Durability and delivery.

Don't get me wrong, they're very, very killy for their cost. But that's not everything in life. For one thing, you have to get them to the enemy. yes you can get them a rhino or chimera, but the fact is that DCAs are delicate enough they're fairly likely to die in the crash.

You can put them in something like an LRC, of course, but then they aren't nearly so cheap.

The sqaud you describe is actually way TOO killy. It will kill almost whatever it hits, and that's great, but I guarantee it will die the round after. The easy answer is of course to give them some crusaders, but then you're reducing the kill to cost ratio a bit. Not too mcuh, still incredibly nasty.

Bottom line is no staying power. No matter how you figure it, they're pretty much good for one shot, then they're done. I think they make pretty good counter-assaulters for a henchmen gunline. They're a pretty hilarious overkill unit in an LRC. But so would 10 purifiers, for instance, and you could use them more than once.

In the end I don't think they have a role in a traditional list made of actual Grey Knights.

Armless Failure wrote:Also DCA don't quite compare to:
3*Acolyte with meltagun in las/plas 'back or psyback, and adding a Jokearo if they're feeling froggy.

I would crap myself if I were against someone ran 6 of those in a coteaz list. That being said, running that list makes you a terrible person, but still nasty. and even one of those units is a deathstar for cheap, and under Coteaz it can hold objectives.

shhhh I have that list. it also comes with 6 psybolt autocannon dreadnaughts.

I've also been experimenting with throwing in one or two battle psykers in the acolyte squads. It goes from essentially just anti-armor to now slightly anti-horde as well by dropping very cheap pie plates which are going to be like a big bolter essentially

The quick answer to your question is that the best players already use them.
DCA's in a land raider is just broken. If you have Cortez with the unit (and you will), you can use hammer hand to push their STR to 5.

Either the GK codex was released with careful foresight into the 6th edition rules, or GW cannot balance their game worth a damn.

notabot187 wrote:I think that people are missing a rather important point with DCAs. Do you REALLY need to cause 20+ PW wounds? No, almost never when you are going as fast as DCA. Also use the LRC so you get grenades the turn you disembark. Fixes issue with transport being shot up and the grenade issue (stopping a GK LRC is very hard to do).

Run 3-5 DCAs, then some crusaders to soak wounds, and maybe some SW shooting guys so the unit can handle anything. The nice thing about Inq squads is they are very customizable. Add the rad grenade hammerhand inquisitor (who gets a good weapon of his own for the upgrade IIRC) and you have a nasty handle anything unit for a reasonable cost. Sure LRs are expensive, but the crusader can almost hold its own in mobile FP (due to defensive weapons and PotMS and MM/Assault Cannon combo). The unit should draw quite a bit of attention, but GKs still have dreads and other nasty things to worry about that won't be getting shot up if the enemy focuses on a LR (not the best plan TBH, but I've made it work enough times to see the merit in a hard to stop LR distraction).

I agree with just about everything he said. Thing is, of course, once you do that, is it all that more cost efficient then some purifiers in same slot? On a pure assault, yeah, it is, but not by a wide margin. And the purifiers are going to survive outside of their boar for a much longer period and be able to put out some decent dakka, hurt tanks, be fearless, etc.

I'm not trying to knock DCAs by any means, they're great. They're just not quite as "ZOMG Awesome!"

Also Inq warbands can only be 12 models. Every DCA is one less Jokearo.

I really wish that Inq Warband troops were unlocked by having an Inquisitor, instead of having to use one specific Malleus Inquisitor which is annoying.

.............you're going to use 12 jokaero?!?

Jokers don't really fit in DCA/Crusader squads that well. There's no result that is really good for the squad (the improve armor save is just armor and doesn't affect Storm Shield or Dodge). Not sure why you would put one in there.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:.............you're going to use 12 jokaero?!?

You wouldn't?

pretre wrote:Jokers don't really fit in DCA/Crusader squads that well. There's no result that is really good for the squad (the improve armor save is just armor and doesn't affect Storm Shield or Dodge). Not sure why you would put one in there.

It was mostly a joke....aro, ba dum ting. honestly though I would like one monkey in that squad, just for the heavy flamer, and if they can't move/awesome opportunity at a vehicle, the multi-melta/lascannon are very nice options. It's not great, but I really like my monkeys.

If I was inclined to run more than one henchman squad (I'm mostly not) I might run 2 or 3, no more.

Standard naked DCA's + Arco's in 2:1 ratios, pretty nasty. The DCA's serve for killing anything with legs and the arcos help kill vehicles. Whilst they aren't as resilient as a storm shield, a 4+ cover & 4+ FNP, against shooting, is in fact better. Against Melee; your winning anyway!

Grenades (all types) a cheap inquisitor. Unless you really want/need shrouding, run two. Even a 25pt naked inquisitor is worth it for the frag grenades & stubborn LD10.

Please do not field crusaders. The only use I can forsee is as a tarpit unit. And GK's are just so good at killing things, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Frags don't transfer to the squad.

Griever wrote:

C) Most people don't build lists specifically to win, but with models they like the look/fluff of.

Right, and people are playing scarab farm because the scarabs are such kick-ass models...

I would wager that if the GK didnt have a power build option that half the current players would be playing something else...

pretre wrote:Frags don't transfer to the squad.

as long as one model in the unit has frag grenades, the whole squad is counted as having it.

it's the same for psycho and rad grenades

The attached inquisitor I'd asume would be carrying them.

sudojoe wrote:

pretre wrote:Frags don't transfer to the squad.

as long as one model in the unit has frag grenades, the whole squad is counted as having it.

it's the same for psycho and rad grenades

The attached inquisitor I'd asume would be carrying them.

This is wrong (the frag part). Bold emphasis is all mine. Otherwise, DCA would be even more badass and the Uriah Bomb would be ridiculous (not that it isn't already).

P36, Main Rulebook: Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to initiative for assaulting enemies through cover.

Compare to Rad Grenades
'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a ...'

Psychos
'When a unit equipped with psychotroke grenades launches an assault, or is asssaulted, roll a d6...'

And Dark Eldar, Phantasm Grenade Launcher:
'A model with a PGL counts as having both assault and defensive grenades, as does any squad he joins.'

And the FAQ for Rad/Psyk/Psycho:
Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad, psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects to work or is just one model being equiped with them enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

sudojoe wrote:

pretre wrote:Frags don't transfer to the squad.

as long as one model in the unit has frag grenades, the whole squad is counted as having it.

Sorry, no. This dates all the way back to old daemonhunters, when the justicar could get frags but the unit couldn't.

If you're going to correct people, you have to be really, really sure you're correct.

pretre wrote:Dark Eldar Wyches + purity seals = 10 DCA for $29.

Other quick conversions are Wood Elves, Dark Elves, etc.
Brettonnian Men At Arms make great Crusaders as well, but all of these are a bit more expensive than the DE Wych.

Here's what mine look like from my SoB army:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, mine get FNP and +1 attack each.

My DC are also wyches, and I have another squad that are Dark Elf Corsairs, I have more DC than grey knights in my army.

Lord Magnus wrote:My DC are also wyches, and I have another squad that are Dark Elf Corsairs, I have more DC than grey knights in my army.

Pics?

Also, I hear that the Wood Elf Wardancers make good DCA.

CT GAMER wrote:I would wager that if the GK didnt have a power build option that half the current players would be playing something else...

+1 to this!

About 1/3 of the GK players I play against do so because they like the fluff and the models.

2/3 of the players are playing them because they are more powerful than any other codex right now by a margin of 10% - 20% IMHO. In the hands of a skilled player, that's an extreme advantage. Imagine a game of chess where one player got an extra move every 5 moves. That's basically what you have with the GK army.

I can't post pics atm, as I am not near my stuff, but it isn't painted and I have to reglue some stuff, as my army case got dropped last time I was at the shop, so I have to glue some back.