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Topic explains it all. I'm not going to go on a rant or anything, but they're pretty ridiculous.

I know they can get shot to death without much trouble, but stick them in a Land Raider or Storm Raven. I'm sure this isn't the "best" setup for them, but just think about this unit:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
- PA
- Rad Grenades
- Psyker with Hammerhand
10 Death Cult Assassins

That should come to 228 points. Slightly more than a Terminator Squad. On the charge, that would be ~22 power weapon wounds (on average) against T4 models, striking at Initiative 6. Against T3 models, all the hits will ID them...so things like Scarabs and Ripper Swarms can't soak the wounds. If anything could possibly live through that, they all have 5+ invulnerable saves. To top everything off, they don't take up a slot in your FOC.

I know they're probably not as good as they seem on paper...but even if they're half as good as they seem, I would expect to see them more often. So the big question of the topic - why are DCA's so rare in Grey Knight lists?

I'm often quite surprised (and relieved) that more people don't use them. I've always seen them perform fantastically well. Toss them with a character that can grant them psycotrope grenades, and they are an amazing unit of killy death.

They are toughness 3, and I suspect that makes many players avoid them purely as they are conditioned to the standard toughness 4 nature of space marines in general. But that's all about controlling your delivery - which is why tossing them into a landraider works well as well.

Mostly because they dont shoot, and the Grey Knight book already does decent close combat--not as good as DCA deathstars but close enough.

The inquisitor also buffs every unit you put it in, not just DCA, and the other GK units get access to their own hammerhand for s6 base (to ID t4 models with rad grenades) or force weapons (to ID t5+) plus hammers for s10 dreadnaught and landraider killing power.

Also, the models may as well not exist, considering how difficult it is to get them in large quantities.

They are devastatingly effective, and yet they do not make it in that many lists.

My explanation is that GK players tend to have a particular mindset that values GK strength, dakka, and resilience. That is what probably drew the players to the army in the first place. The assassins are rather fragile-looking by comparison - T3, no power armor, no dakka, and no high-strength weapons. The assassins simply do not fit the stereotype, and so players likely instinctively avoid them, which is quite good for the rest of us. Obviously, the assassins shred the MEQ due to higher initiative and PW.

Necrontyr40k wrote:They are devastatingly effective, and yet they do not make it in that many lists.

My explanation is that GK players tend to have a particular mindset that values GK strength, dakka, and resilience. That is what probably drew the players to the army in the first place. The assassins are rather fragile-looking by comparison - T3, no power armor, no dakka, and no high-strength weapons. The assassins simply do not fit the stereotype, and so players likely instinctively avoid them, which is quite good for the rest of us. Obviously, the assassins shred the MEQ due to higher initiative and PW.

My explanation is that many units can do the same function the Deathcult sins can do. With out using an inquisitor. And chances are, those are scoring too (Purifiers, Paladins, etc).

Make no mistake. Death cult assassins are not cheap. They need a land raider to be used properly (and an inqsuitor, which factors into the cost too). They also tend to die after 1 successful assault. Other choices last long enough to assault AND SHOOT another target.

I would like to use them but they are expensive model wise and generally hard to find discounted. Very few sellers online carry them and almost none 2nd hand

buying from GW can get pretty pricy fast what with

crusaders are 10 dollars a piece
DCA are 15 bucks for 2

Also, while they are very effective, you tend to collect rhinos/razorbacks and not so much LR crusaders or chimeras which would be alot of different equipment than the standard GK lists. Tight budgets is my excuse anyway.

I'm actually in the process of converting some privateer press models for this purpose.

What Yuber said. They're a nasty little bomb but for the points cost in a GK army, where points are at a premium, they're by no means a no brainer.

I use them in my henchmen army, but that's because I'm going for a theme.

You find an easy way to obtain large quantities of them, and we'll talk. Point for point, they're probably one of the best units in the game. But when you start putting monetary resources into the equation... not so much.

Especially since they're metal, single pose, and only have 2 variants. And although the models themselves are by no means ugly, they're very far removed from stellar.

Although some friends and I are looking to get some =I=munda started up, and I'll probably end up using some of my inquisitional warband in 40k as well. I'll probably end up using some beastmen mutants as DCAs.

I've enjoyed using them as 7 man squads along with 3 melta guys, you hop out of a transport which hasnt moved pop a tank and assault.

Though the lack of grenades making them assaulting into terrain go ini 1 might be the reason. It would hurt them alot if the enemy hides in terrain shooting them.

Duce wrote:I've enjoyed using them as 7 man squads along with 3 melta guys, you hop out of a transport which hasnt moved pop a tank and assault.

Though the lack of grenades making them assaulting into terrain go ini 1 might be the reason. It would hurt them alot if the enemy hides in terrain shooting them.

This scenario implies either I'm wrong about the assaulting rules or you are. Can you assault a different target to one you have shot if the target you've shot is destroyed?

No, you cannot. The only exception is that if you shot at a transport, and it was destroyed in the shooting phase, you may assault the former passengers.

Ah, OK. So that would be what Duce is referring to, thanks Fafnir.

I converted some WHF dark elf corsairs for mine. They look perfect for the unit in my opinion. I took another box and threw tomb king skeleton warrior shields on them that also look great for crusaders. Buy some round 25mm bases (usually come in packs of 20-30) and you have the cheapest set of them I think you can buy.

In terms of delivery, I've found a stormraven with a librarian is their best chance of getting to the enemy in 1 piece and doing as much damage as possible. No need for melta acolytes when you have a horde of DCA with strength 6 +2d6 armor pen tearing vehicles apart (might of titan and hammerhand). There is no vehicle in the game that can reliably survive that kind of damage, never mind what they can do to infantry.

The librarian/stormraven combo is actually more important for getting them to the enemy lines alive than it is for damage, which is just a fantastic bonus. Its the stormraven's flatout cover save combined with shrouding that makes it extremely survivable and ensures they will be delivered on target.

Now their glaring, horrible weakness is that lack of assault grenades, which no amount of support is going to solve. You just have to plan around that fact when running them

ie: Are you facing a full mech parking lot, where every vehicle you wreck means difficult terrain? Use the squad as a "linebreak" unit and have then charge as many vehicles as possible. Combined with might of titan and they should be able to destroy/immobilize most of what they hit. Sure they die from return fire but you have probably taken out 2-3 vehicles with them in 1 round of assault, and you can mop up the surviving infantry that are left exposed.

Siphen wrote:Topic explains it all. I'm not going to go on a rant or anything, but they're pretty ridiculous.

I know they can get shot to death without much trouble, but stick them in a Land Raider or Storm Raven. I'm sure this isn't the "best" setup for them, but just think about this unit:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
- PA
- Rad Grenades
- Psyker with Hammerhand
10 Death Cult Assassins

That should come to 228 points. Slightly more than a Terminator Squad. On the charge, that would be ~22 power weapon wounds (on average) against T4 models, striking at Initiative 6. Against T3 models, all the hits will ID them...so things like Scarabs and Ripper Swarms can't soak the wounds. If anything could possibly live through that, they all have 5+ invulnerable saves. To top everything off, they don't take up a slot in your FOC.

I know they're probably not as good as they seem on paper...but even if they're half as good as they seem, I would expect to see them more often. So the big question of the topic - why are DCA's so rare in Grey Knight lists?

They are not rare. Plenty of people use them.

Throw in a brotherhood champion and the unit has rerolls to hit. The DCA will then hit 8/9 times bringing it up to almost 30 wounds at I6 that instant death T4 models for 338 points.

At 228 points they hit like a 400 point deathstar, but they take a bolter to the face about as well as a 50 point squad of guardsmen. T3, no grenades, and a 5+ invo=glass jaw. Also because players that know what they can do react violently to them it's very likely their transport will be blown up, and a fact any IG player will testify to is T3 5+ save models don't do that hot when their transport explodes. On paper they look like a 400 point brute force deathstar on sale for half price, but in reality they are a very delicate finesse unit with a lot of potential that is difficult to use.

Dark Eldar Wyches + purity seals = 10 DCA for $29.

Other quick conversions are Wood Elves, Dark Elves, etc.
Brettonnian Men At Arms make great Crusaders as well, but all of these are a bit more expensive than the DE Wych.

Here's what mine look like from my SoB army:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, mine get FNP and +1 attack each.

Fafnir wrote:You find an easy way to obtain large quantities of them, and we'll talk.

Check out the D&D minis on MiniatureMarket. The bases are the same size as GW and they have large groups of sword-wielding maniacs at significant discounts. I got 17 dual-wielding assassin types for 35 cents each, earlier this year. They are single-pose and not that well painted, but the price is quite unbeatable.

I second the idea of conversions using a fantasy line of figurines. I have been converting CSM champions from chaos warriors by adding front power-armor plate, legs, and a power backpack, and they look awesome.

One of the things that has stopped me from getting any is the cost and difficulty in acquiring models. On a slight side note, do DCA HAVE to be female? There are lots of great male models out there that fit the bill in terms of weapons loadout/pose/clothing etc but I've been wary of getting any in case they really should all be girls.

1st reason: Most GK players are playing Codex: GKs to play with GKs. Shiny Silver marines with super powers. They arn't playing to play Inquisition.

2nd reason: models are expensive.

3rd reason: Other stuff does the same job, but also does a bunch of other jobs and does them all well. Death Cult are too specialized.

If I was going to make a henchmman list and take Inquisitors I would use them, as it stands though I've built a 2k termie list just to keep model count down to make it quick to paint.

Ive run a henchmen GK list and it works pretty well
DK assassins are pretty much unstoppable in CC when supported. If anything can take them, you should have enough firepower to blow it away before it gets the chance

the issue they have is being /too/ killy that they get caught in the open all the time, put in some crusaders till you find the balance point.

Technically nothing in the DCA fluff says that they have to be female. As long as you belong to the redemptionist cult and got some assassinorium training, you technically can be a death cult.

If you read the Grey knight novel (first one or omnibus), they had several male death cults with the inquisitor as her personal escort.

sudojoe wrote:Technically nothing in the DCA fluff says that they have to be female. As long as you belong to the redemptionist cult and got some assassinorium training, you technically can be a death cult.

If you read the Grey knight novel (first one or omnibus), they had several male death cults with the inquisitor as her personal escort.

I have read that actually and I was under the impression that they were female. It's just my recollection though, maybe I missed the part in the book that told us they were male. I'm just sure that I read somewhere that they are almost always female. I'm not up on the fluff side of WH40K, however. Being able to take males as well is pretty cool as there are some nice models out there that could be used as DCA.

I don't use them because they do not fit into the theme of my army. The only non-GK unit is use is a Vindicare Assassin because I like them WAY too much not to use one. If I decided to do a more Inquisitor themed force, you bet your sweet a%$ I would use a number of Death Cult Assassins. No I have never heard anything saying they have to be female. A more cost effective way to have models for them is to combine DE Wyches with spare GK and Imperial bits you have.

I tend to agree. I'm the only person i know who uses them in mass. However i think its mainly to due with the fact the models are so dam expensive!

I solved this by having a all henchmen army with bretonian men at arms as the base for all my infantry. for death cult assassins i use dark angel hooded heads with no power armor (makes them look like warrior monks.) and any non-power armor sword hands i can find or covert them. My crusaders are easy. Normal men at arms figure with a brass inquisitor symbol in their shield and a sword arm. Warriors were made using men at arms bits, cadian bits and space marine scout arms for bolters. Psykers are same men at arm bits with cut down pole arms and a imperial eagle in place and normally a chain sword.

Over all they are very unique and made them as a add on to my imperial guard force that has the same theme. Can still use alot of my chimeras, units with special weapons or hot shot warriors. Im more of a guard player so i never really use grey knights. I did just get a land raider crusader and want to get a 2 razor backs with assault cannons though.

I run a unit of 4 DCAs, 3 Crusaders, 2 Arco flagellants, a mystic, and a librarian attached. Have their SR flatout toward the enemy, and usually have a Dreadknight and a squad or two deep striking, so any of them that come in turn two give the opponent something else to worry about, as they won't scatter due to the mystic.

A) They don't really have models

B) People play Grey Knights to play Grey Knights, not Wyches with power weapons

C) Most people don't build lists specifically to win, but with models they like the look/fluff of.

ColdSadHungry wrote:

sudojoe wrote:Technically nothing in the DCA fluff says that they have to be female. As long as you belong to the redemptionist cult and got some assassinorium training, you technically can be a death cult.

If you read the Grey knight novel (first one or omnibus), they had several male death cults with the inquisitor as her personal escort.

I have read that actually and I was under the impression that they were female. It's just my recollection though, maybe I missed the part in the book that told us they were male. I'm just sure that I read somewhere that they are almost always female. I'm not up on the fluff side of WH40K, however. Being able to take males as well is pretty cool as there are some nice models out there that could be used as DCA.

p140

"Aleric knelt down by Taici. He wa still breathing but he had taken a severe beating...A sleek, handsome face was now bloody and broken, glossy black hair, blodied golden skin, the jaw now broken and shattered. Slivers of teeth were mixed in with the blood running down his chin"

As far as I can tell, there were about 6 men + women in Inquisitor's escort. They named at least 3 men so that leaves 3 of them to be women.

Only Xiang, one of the women survived at the end. Guess she had better rolls on her invul saves

Thanks for the tips on crusaders and DCA. Most of my Acolytes etc are made up from my Necromunda collection. Well what was left over from the 4 IG infantry platoons I filled out. I'm building a inquisition army. Got 2 squads of Death Watch and plenty of henchmen.

not sure if the pricing looks any better but I've always liked PP's daughters of the flame models for good DCAs

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/the-protectorate-of-menoth/units/daughters-of-the-flame

Also DCA don't quite compare to:
3*Acolyte with meltagun in las/plas 'back or psyback, and adding a Jokearo if they're feeling froggy.

I would crap myself if I were against someone ran 6 of those in a coteaz list. That being said, running that list makes you a terrible person, but still nasty. and even one of those units is a deathstar for cheap, and under Coteaz it can hold objectives.