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labmouse42 wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I would wager that if the GK didnt have a power build option that half the current players would be playing something else...

+1 to this!

About 1/3 of the GK players I play against do so because they like the fluff and the models.

2/3 of the players are playing them because they are more powerful than any other codex right now by a margin of 10% - 20% IMHO. In the hands of a skilled player, that's an extreme advantage. Imagine a game of chess where one player got an extra move every 5 moves. That's basically what you have with the GK army.

This is hilarious because so far, even though this is the internet wisdom, in my experience it hasn't panned out.
Have any big events been won by GK armies (other than Blackmoor's win, which I know about)?

At the events that I've been to, it seems like being a GK player is a liability (at least by their performance). We had a local 4 round event won by a GK player, but he is a great player and usually wins with whatever army he brings. Even with that, he almost got tabled by a SoB player in his second round (squeaking out a victory because game ended on the round 5 roll).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Magnus wrote:I can't post pics atm, as I am not near my stuff, but it isn't painted and I have to reglue some stuff, as my army case got dropped last time I was at the shop, so I have to glue some back.

Suck. Sorry to hear it. Well, if you ever get them back together, post up some pics.

pretre wrote:This is hilarious because so far, even though this is the internet wisdom, in my experience it hasn't panned out.
Have any big events been won by GK armies (other than Blackmoor's win, which I know about)? .

How about Battle for Salvation?
http://www.battleforsalvation.com/about-2/

So, two GK in the top standings (assuming Tournament Ace is battle points driven). Fair enough. Certainly not the 'sweep' that one might be looking for if they were as OP as the internet thinks, but certainly interesting. Curious how many GK were there...


Renaissance Man -Mike Brandt (Imperial Guard)
Gold Bracket Champion -Neil Gilstrap (Grey Knights)
Silver Bracket Champion – Shaun Kemp (?)
Bronze Bracket Champion – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Best Appearance – Chris Dubuque (Blood Angels)
Best Sportsman – Robert Roda (Dark Eldar)
Tournament Ace – Ryan Holiday (Grey Knights)
Tournament Ace – Michael Somerville (Imperial Guard)
Tournament Ace – Ragnar Arneson (Chaos Space Marines)

The interweb has two camps that are both equally convinced that they hold the truth about GK.

One mob say they're so grossly overpowered that it's basically cheating to use them.

The other lot say that they're no big deal and can't compete with top tier lists and in fact will probably get tabled.

There is of course a third group that just thinks they're a good codex with several decent builds.

As regards the original topic, I'm quite tempted to try a 'raven-landed Coteaz-techmarine-librarian-Crusader/Death Cult list but it's the limited models (and expense that puts me off. Sometime I might think about using proxies (either GW models that look similar or non-GW ones that do) but even with Crusaders mixed in I rather worry about the durability of the squads.

Artemo wrote: There is of course a third group that just thinks they're a good codex with several decent builds.

I think this is probably closest to the mark.

I think they're about as powerful as Space wolves, which is neat cuz they did without having any obviously miscosted units like Long Fangs. (psyflemen are a little weird, but people who build 4-6 psyflemen lists are kinda missing the point)

Also, somwhat fatalistically, they have way more viable builds than any other codex out there. They are a decently powerful codex with good "internal balance" as well, which has been so far fairly unheard of.

No unit is outright unviable (though purgation squads get used very differently than intended). anf for viable build we have:

Plain GKSS and rhino based

Purifier lists

Draigo-wing

GKT and GKSS deep strike lists

Psyflemen shooting nonsense

Strom raven fast rush

Dreadknight and interceptor based fast rush

Land raider heavy assault lists

Shooty henchmen

Assaulty henchmen

All of these options, and several of their combinations, work quite well. That's just unheard of.

people complain about Psyflemen being undercosted when they really arn't.


Sure, if you look at them in a vaccume and only compare them to similer units then they seem undercosted,

But if you take them as a part of the army you see they are just right. Namely because they are just about the only long ranged shooting the army has. They don't have Lascannons or Missile launchers to take out vehicles at a distance. They only have the shorter ranged psycannon.

The Psyflemen dred is quite fairly costed in a codex where its the ONLY option for long ranged shooting.

pretre wrote:So, two GK in the top standings (assuming Tournament Ace is battle points driven). Fair enough. Certainly not the 'sweep' that one might be looking for if they were as OP as the internet thinks, but certainly interesting.

Careful. When you ask for one example, and then dismiss that example, you risk looking like this....

labmouse42 wrote:

pretre wrote:So, two GK in the top standings (assuming Tournament Ace is battle points driven). Fair enough. Certainly not the 'sweep' that one might be looking for if they were as OP as the internet thinks, but certainly interesting.

Careful. When you ask for one example, and then dismiss that example, you risk looking like this....

How did I dismiss your example? I in fact said 'Fair enough' and that the results were interesting. That should have indicated that I thought your example was interesting and a fair representation of how the GK could compete at a real event. Were you expecting me to respond 'OMG, GK IS THE OPNESS!!!'?

pretre wrote:How did I dismiss your example?

My apologies.
I was skimming and I misread this "So, two GK in the top standings (assuming Tournament Ace is battle points driven)." as this -- "So in two GT, GK were in the top standings"

I was just so excited about being able to reference Monty Python I did not read your comment thoroughly

labmouse42 wrote:I was just so excited about being able to reference Monty Python

It is okay. This happens to all of us sometimes.

Still, that's a great scene I'd totally forgotten about, and does in fact remind me of a lot of arguments that go on around here. So +1 for misreading posts!

As I mentioned, I do not believe that the GK codex is balanced. While every codex has its 'extremely effective unit', the GK codex has many of them, and combines synargies to make them overly effective. Here are the reasons I believe GK are 10%-20% than other top end codexs.

1) Henchmen as troops.
This allows the GK to bring Warrior Acolyte's as scoring units. These are cheaper than guard, with better stats, can be taken in units of 3, and have cheaper access to plasma guns. These can be put inside a Chimera/Razorback. This gives the option of a 12 point scoring unit, or the cheapest special weapons in the game.
The solution to this problem is to require that an inquisitor lord start the game with every henchman unit. Take them as troops, but you can only start with 2.

2) Death Cult Assassins.
Being able to place these in a land raider or stormraven removes their weakness -- the chance of getting shot up at range. The combination with hammerhand on these gives them STR 5, allowing you to have many STR 5 power weapon hits at I6. For 15 points a model it handly defeats nearly every enemy iunit. If your DCA are going up against the scarab machine of necrons, just put another IC in the DCA so you can cast hammerhand twice, allowing your DCA to insta-kill the scarabs with STR 6 hits.
The solution to this problem is twofold. Don't let them ride in Stormravens or LandRaiders, and do not allow IC to join the unit.

3) Psybolt ammo.
The game was designed with armor penetrations at a balanced manner. You can rely upon an autocannon to do good vs light armor and less effective vs heavy armor. The problem is the increase is linear. One higher STR knocks the effectiveness of a weapon up by one. Suddenly that autocannon that was hell on wheels against AV10 is now wrecking face on rhinos and knocking down AV12 which not many problems. This problem also happens with assault cannons. Even with storm bolters. How do those heavy bolter attack bikes compare to a 10 STR 5 storm bolters?
The solution to this problem is to have psybolt ammo only have the +1 STR on psykers.

Let me state again. 10%-20%. (depending on the codex. 10% better than SW, 20% better than orks)
That is an advantage, but it is not an auto-win.

Counterpoints:
1) There is a diminishing returns to cheap scoring units. Yeah, you have cheap scoring with cheap weapons, but the entire unit poofs to one penetrating hit anywhere near them.
2) Putting something in a LR/SR is no guarantee of it living. In quite a few games, LR/SR don't last past the first turn. I don't think that DCA are game breaking. If you're putting multiple ICs + 250pt transport with them, that's a lot of eggs in one basket. I would love to face more armies with that combo.
3) Psybolt is mitigated by range. GK can get very few long range weapons. It just happens that one of those is very effective.

If you're going to list things that are over the top, how about Fortitude? Cheaper extra armor that works better? I'll take 5!

Again, I think that GK is internally and externally balanced. Now that it has been out for a few months it is clear that it has some strengths and weaknesses that are exploitable. I think the reason we aren't seeing GK taking over the tourney scene is because of this.

And fortitude is eclipsed by living metal (since you are comparing different codexes) At least fortitude can be stopped.

thecapn226 wrote:And fortitude is eclipsed by living metal (since you are comparing different codexes) At least fortitude can be stopped.

I would disagree. Living Metal is immediate. I know if you are suppressed or not and can move on to another target. GK is on their turn. I cannot count on you being suppressed no matter what.

Fortitude also has a better chance then Living Metal to work, with a slight chance of it backfiring.

I cannot count on you being suppressed no matter what.

So deal with that.

Honestly half the 'problem' with the GK codex is people expecting the same tired old builds and (more importantly) tactics to work. A fair few of my mates bleated (in a matey way) about GK overpowerment when they started playing my paladin list. Typical complaints are along the line sof 'Draigo is broken', 'psychic powers - especially Sanctuary - are broken', 'hammerhand stacking is broken' etc. Now in fact since they have adjusted their tactics (and in two cases their lists - not tailoring, they're still all comers lists but just adjusted somewhat) they do better against me than at first. So the 'broken' comments have died away.

Personally I'm waiting to hear the wail when nasty necron builds start trashing MSU spam lists of all flavours, including Crowe/Purifier spam.

The problem is not in the codices but in the players.

Artemo wrote:The problem is not in the codices but in the players.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

pretre wrote:

Artemo wrote:The problem is not in the codices but in the players.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Bidding war? I'll buy it for $2.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

pretre wrote:

Artemo wrote:The problem is not in the codices but in the players.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Bidding war? I'll buy it for $2.

Artemo wrote:The interweb has two camps that are both equally convinced that they hold the truth about GK.

One mob say they're so grossly overpowered that it's basically cheating to use them.

The other lot say that they're no big deal and can't compete with top tier lists and in fact will probably get tabled.

There is of course a third group that just thinks they're a good codex with several decent builds.

As regards the original topic, I'm quite tempted to try a 'raven-landed Coteaz-techmarine-librarian-Crusader/Death Cult list but it's the limited models (and expense that puts me off. Sometime I might think about using proxies (either GW models that look similar or non-GW ones that do) but even with Crusaders mixed in I rather worry about the durability of the squads.

I think this is correct, though in less competitive games they can be kind of point and shoot, they honestly aren't going to win everytime even in the hands of a great player..

pretre wrote:

Artemo wrote: There is of course a third group that just thinks they're a good codex with several decent builds.

I think this is probably closest to the mark.

I certainly didn't claim they are unbeatable.

I simply stated they have certain powerbuilds (which they do) that make them highly popular with certain types of players. If cetain models and combos didn't exist in the codex then many people that are playing them wouldn't be. I've seen too many people playing games with proxies and empty bases to believe the claim that they are all playing them for the pretty models...

Anyone claiming that people are playing scarab farm because the scarab models are great is either a moron or a moron...

I haven't been impressed with death cults or various mentioned builds. I'e played against the Inquisition using storm raven/deathcult/libby etc and shot down the sr then laughed as his assassins were gibblets before crossing the board. The watched hellions mutilate draigo with tons of shots.. So I really fail to see then as some super power. Good codex but hardly as op as when IG first came out.

CT GAMER wrote:

pretre wrote:

Artemo wrote: There is of course a third group that just thinks they're a good codex with several decent builds.

I think this is probably closest to the mark.

I certainly didn't claim they are unbeatable.

I simply stated they have certain powerbuilds (which they do) that make them highly popular with certain types of players. If cetain models and combos didn't exist in the codex then many people that are playing them wouldn't be. I've seen too many people playing games with proxies and empty bases to believe the claim that they are all playing them for the pretty models...

Anyone claiming that people are playing scarab farm because the scarab models are great is either a moron or a moron...

My response wasn't aimed at you. I completely agree that folks play them because of their perceived power.

I've seen Assassins added to shooty/Jokaero units as insurance polices in case the unit get's assaulted, but never as dedicated assault units of their own.

Firstly you pretty much have to take them with either a LR Crusader or Redeemer, as that's the only way they're getting Frag Grenades to avoid being Int 1 while heading into cover.

Secondly, they've got plenty of punch, but they are huge glass cannons. I'd imagine that their first assault would go beautifully... only for a double-tapping tactical squad to wipe out half the unit in response.

I'm just not sure that the unit is worth the investment when you tack on the required Land Raider. 10 melee Purifiers with halberds and a couple of hammers wouldn't be that much more expensive than the assassins + attendant inquisitor, and they would be far harder to shift once they have been vomited out of the Land Raider, and do similar amounts of damage (more possibly, thanks to Cleansing Flame, Force Weapons, and Hammers).

Nah a libby 3 crusaders with the assassins in a sr does pretty good if the shrouding holds up.. Otherwise buh bye

Draigo wrote:Nah a libby 3 crusaders with the assassins in a sr does pretty good if the shrouding holds up.. Otherwise buh bye

....I don't understand the unit being run out of a Stormraven. Where does the unit get Grenades from? Is striking at Int. 1 vs anyone in cover part of the plan?

The thing is most dont care if they go second into cover. Most squads hiding in cover arent the cc stuff so they just take the wounds off the crusaders or the libby with a stave. The point of the raven is to chase stuff down that has stuff in the open. My friend also has a dread in the back to flame cover etc

I've also used them successfully as just a 3-5 man unit with an added crusader (guy with storm shield, not the tank) for objective camping and guarding my auto cannon dreads vs other assault units/tarpitting/deep striking craziness.

very cheap and effective. So what if they are attacking into cover. Most things usually end up assaulting the dreadnaught or I can even just have my dread assault in then have the assassins charge the same unit to wipe them out. Also do not need grenades if the target is already in combat.