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LeetBix wrote:4. Imperial Fist successors (I really don't like the IF themselves)

I agree. I love the Templars and the Soul Drinkers, but hate the IF and CF

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

What kind of threat could possibly have warranted the entire legion?

They weren't conveniently absent. They just happened to be based on opposite side of the galaxy as Earth. Nobody was further from Earth by default than the Ultramarines. Horus then used the fact that he knew Guilliman would follow his orders to make sure the Ultramarines, the legion he knew was the strongest and most dangerous to his plans, were as far away as possible so he made up an assignment that would require the whole legion and gave it to the Ultramarines. And he sent the second largest legion to try and take them by surprise. But the Ultramarines managed to both defeat the Word Bearers, and remain the largest and strongest of legions. That's pretty bad ass. I mean, I've been an Ultramarines players since long before the Horus Heresy was anything more than a few paragraphs long, but hey, the truth is what it is.

You can hate the Ultramarines for whatever silly reasons your brain has concocted. Because you don't like the 5th Edition Codex, or Matt Ward, or who knows whatever nonsense you've cooked up. But the facts remain the same. They were the most successful legion before the Heresy, they were the most successful after it, and they've been the most successful Chapter since the Second Founding. Plus, their primarch wrote the book on being a Space Marine, literally. The book described as being like a mix of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and every other military genius for 30,000 years. How do we know all of this? Because Rick Priestley, the creator of 40K, told us so, twenty years ago almost, long before Matt Ward painted his first miniature.

Besides, their helmets were absolutely awesome looking:
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/4/3/25784_sm-Pre-heresy,%20True-scale,%20Ultramarines.jpg

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110323192921/warhammer40k/images/d/df/Berranus_Tactical_Squad.jpg

Personally, I kinda like the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion, but I never played Chaos on the tabletop.

I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

I have seen reason like: because they are blue or because they are poster boys.
But most people hate them because of Matt Ward calim that they are second t oteh Emperor himself adn that ALL chapters want to be liek them.
Also "Spiritual League" destroyed Guliman's image forever

Yeah Ward done goofed on the UM, but their not that bad. I'm sure people will get over it soon enough

In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

On topic, I voted for the Death Guard, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons. All have great backgrounds and are badass.

I think that UM are quite solid and a really nice idea. Some hope in the shitpit universe of 40k. I also don't think this should turn in to another UM love/hate thread though, so I'm gonna go ahead and ask: Why no love for the White Scars? They are on the bottom in my primarchs thread as well and I actually really like them

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

It's nerd rage hate transference.

Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters.

Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default chapter. This was done for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones.

The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.

This UM conversation isn't going to go away is it?

Well, given the fact that there's really no way to argue with what I wrote, it should. Will it? Probably not.

Every chapter has its haters and then there are those that hate Marines in general soo ya. Most the hate tends to be when new codexes come out though. Only the UM seem to keep it. I think it also has to do with the number of new players starting with the smurf book. Which leads to an elitist look by some vets on the "new" guy who doesn't know the rules.

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, given the fact that there's really no way to argue with what I wrote, it should. Will it? Probably not.

+1 to that, you made a solid argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

I, for one, would love if Titus was an HQ in the next SM codex. Let the begin I know, but he's really a pretty cool guy

Alpha Legion for the fluff. Hopefully they will be addressed in the new CSM codex due in 2020

My friend has an AL army, really good paintjob

Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. None cooler

I feel like TS got a serious downgrade post heresy. They're now just dust in the wind compared to the preheresy ones


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm sorry I just had to make the joke, it was just sitting there

Night Lords take my vote,

I find some humor in the lack of sw votes and theyre all over the tournament scene..

I doubt that the GK would be much different if I made knelt these for =I=. People play good armies, doesn't necessarily mean they play their favorite. Me I play for the fluff, so I really don't mind being uncompetitive. In tourneys people are going to play to win, so you can expect to see a lot of SW, GK, BA and all that gak. It's not like it really matters that much though, does it?

Just an observation I found humerous.. I have played the same armies forever(granted new models and dexes change lists). I mean now I dont have a daemonhunter list with Stern etc. Had to get new plastics. Glad my old wulfens can still be used for somthing though.

It is a rather funny observation, just giving the logic behind it

Draigo wrote:I find some humor in the lack of sw votes and theyre all over the tournament scene..

Most people playing them in the tournament scene aren't playing them for their background, hell many, if not most, are just taking their existing armies from other books and using the SW rules

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

It's nerd rage hate transference.

Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters.

Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default chapter. This was done for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones.

The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.

Indeed. You summarized that very well.

I respectfully disagree with Veteran Sergeant. The main reason why people dislike the Ultramarines is because their background/fluff is over the top and idiotic and being boring is only a secondary reason why some people dislike them (I personally don't think they're boring). Also, disliking the Ultramarines does not make you an unmanly neckbeard.

However, I'm not really in the mood for an argument and since this issue is entirely opinion based, we'll never convince each other.

Ultramarines. It's in the name.

The thing about the Ultramarines is, they have about equal numbers of fanboyz and haters. Both sides are equally fanatical and nobody can ever really win. I also wouldn't say that their fluff is boring, a bit OTT, but not boring

I'm a big fan of the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and pre-heresy 1k Sons.

Runners up would be the Dark Angels and White Scars.

Interestingly, while I once really liked the Space Wolves reading the Heresy books dropped them to the absolute bottom of my list.

Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.