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They don't need a cartoony weakness, true; but they need something. Right now they are perfect. There's no flaw, no potential conflict, no nothing. Currently, the Ultramarines are about as engaging as a PowerPoint presentation. They're the middle management of the Adeptus Astartes. Give them a twist that turns their strength into a weakness, and then you'll be cooking with gas.

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

Ok. Well said Coa. He is the only reason i like the ultramarines. through one guy who is pretty much just a luna wolf in blue armour. Leandros is the reason i hate the ultramarines, as EVERY SINGLE FETHING ULTRAMARINE IS LIKE THAT. They have basically become the emperors children, thinking themselves perfect compared to other legions. All this gathered from the pile of fluff gak that is the 5th edition SM codex... It really destroyed the look of the SM IMHO. It seems that GW are trying their hardest to get little children to join the hobby, instead of making it a sophisticated game, they write the fluff in the form of fanfiction. the further Games Workshop proceeds to become more popular, the more i am beginning to dislike it


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daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......



















ALE.

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

daveNYC wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

Woah dude calm down it was a joke :S it seems as though i have struck a cord... apologies...

The wolves have weaknesses, like the fact that every once in a while a recruit turns into a fething WEREWOLF!!!!!

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

Woah dude calm down it was a joke :S it seems as though i have struck a cord... apologies...

No worries. Sorry if I came back a little harsh. It's just that the Wolves and the Ultras (and the GK, now that I mention it) all really annoy me. Most of the various 40k factions are well(ish) written and have strenghts and weaknesses. Some of them even go so far as to have genuine flaws and character. That's what makes the super awesome mary-sue snowflake types even more painful to look at.

The GK are so powerful and uncorruptable and double awesomesauce, in fact, you never even get the idea that they're even worried about being corrupted (it mentions it, but that's just a one off). Great. Who cares. How about saying some of them fell, and are the evil stuck under Mount Whatsis on Titan. It gives the Purifiers a reason to exist, and gives the GK a secret to hide and a tragic flaw that their incorruptible nature is a sham.

The Ultras are the best of the best of the best. Everyone looks up to them. Everyone wants to be them. Heck, they even come with a multi-thousand page manual on the perfect way to wage war. How about setting them up as both paragons of Marineness, and examples of how the hidebound and traditional nature of the Imperium (as reflected by the Ultra's use of the Codex) will eventually lead to distruction. The Inquisition has radicals and puritans, why not allow similar conflict between Ultramarine commanders based on following the letter or the spirit of the Codex.

Thanks to the HH fluff and the corrent codex fluff and crunch, the Space Wolves are now somehow a bunch of rowdy space vikings, whose rowdyness is simply a cover for being super sneaky and thoughtful, but at the same time they actually do party hard and enjoy themselves, so it isn't exactly all an act. It's just that they're better Marines when they're hungover or something. Add in the 'Executioner Legion' rumors, Russ' hatred of all things psyker combined with his (in ATS) psyker yell power, the Rune Priests being primitive screwheads who somehow have the Wolf of the Wolf Wolf power combined with great psychic defenses... the list goes on, but currently the Wolves are more psychic than the Eldar, more shooty than the Tau, and more choppy than Khorne Bezerkers. All while being heros of the Imperium, all around nice guys, and God only knows what else. Something, somewhere has to give. If their Rune Priests use traditional Fenrisian techniques, then make them weak on offense and good on defense. If the Wolves are crazy CC types, then do something about Longfangs. If they're hard partying space vikings, then have them get rolled by someone who sent them a few kegs of beer and then attacked when they were hung over.

Right. I feel a bit better now.

I agree, Phil Kelly should have put in something like this on all the non-vehicle units

Hungover- Roll a d6 before you charge or shoot, on a roll of 1, reduce WS and BS by 1 for the rest of that turn

They are heavily flawed. Their gene seed is slightly unstable, They are extremely hated by the inquisition and many different chapters, and above all they strictly do not follow the codex, as they think its a disgrace. Considering the fact that they have a ridiculously strong sense of honour that even when CSM are treated dishonourably by ally chapters fighting with them, THEY WILL TURN ON THEM. They have also been attacked by the inquisition atleast 3 times, all of them failing due to the fang. The third strongest stronghold known to man. Also dont forget the inquisition is on the verge of counting them as chaos... They do have their flaws bud. Now tell me what the ultramarines have to compare to that?

Ultramarines. Because that is what games workshop says.

The Ultramarines have the flaw that Leandros is a massive douche-canoe

Pre-Heresy Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and then Salamanders for my top three

Almost all of them were cooler PH, except for the Word Bearers.

Edit: Just realized this was my Thousandth post, and I could not be happier then using it to insult the WB. Internet marshmellows to all

lol at douche canoe haha

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My marshmellows pic isn't working, so just use your imagination, sorry

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

I actually quite like that, it shows that SM are what the legends say they are, super-soldiers

My favorite would be the Thousand Sons, but ability-wise, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus would be the greatest legion, with Blood Angels and Ultramarines vying for second place.

The main issue I have with the UM is that they're nowhere as near as good as the BA. Even in their forte, tactics, they turn over control to the BA

daveNYC wrote:The Ultras are the best of the best of the best. Everyone looks up to them. Everyone wants to be them. Heck, they even come with a multi-thousand page manual on the perfect way to wage war. How about setting them up as both paragons of Marineness, and examples of how the hidebound and traditional nature of the Imperium (as reflected by the Ultra's use of the Codex) will eventually lead to distruction. The Inquisition has radicals and puritans, why not allow similar conflict between Ultramarine commanders based on following the letter or the spirit of the Codex.

The problem is, that's not how the Codex Astartes works. It's not an If A, then B instruction manual for war like some of the bad fiction and less discerning players make it out to be. It's a thousands upon thousands page tome of examples and battles which gives a Space Marine commander the ability to use the experiences of countless battles to help him make tactical and strategic decisions. A Space Marine steeped in the knowledge of the Codex is going to a master of war, able to make sound, effective decisions on the fly, and dictate the pace and terms of battle most of the time. The Codex Astartes is exactly why the Space Marines are as successful as they are, not something they are successful in spite of. Surely it's "stepped" in the manner where there are basic squad and fireteam tactics that all Marines learn as Scouts, then advanced maneuvers and such for full fledged Marines, then even more advanced tactical and some low level strategic stuff for Sergeants, and onwards. The kinds of silliness McNeill wrote about in the Uriel Ventris series where a commander gets punished for "acting outside the Codex" is garbage. Very little would be outside the scope of the Codex since it apparently has "hundreds of pages" on every possible combat situation. Every example we've ever had shows that there's almost no rigidity in the Codex at all. Even when it comes to heraldry, the Ultramarines are relatively flexible (check Insignum Astartes for countless examples of markings variations). The only point that seems to be set in stone is the size of chapters at ten infantry companies, and that was purposeful to prevent chapter masters from ever wielding as much power as the Primarchs did with their legions.

I mean, I can see some of your point. The Ultramarines have no obvious flaws which make them, superficially seem like poorly written characters. But that's mostly because Space Marines in general have no obvious flaws. Space Marines are a large organization, and the Ultramarines are a group of people, not an individual character. Painting them all with one brush (da dum, chshhh) would be bad writing too. I'm sure they're a haughty, arrogant bunch, and I imagine from time to time this gets them in trouble. But their leaders also have decades, if not centuries, of battle experience, as well as the lessons of the Codex Astartes to draw on, and aren't going to commit forces foolishly very often. I mean, look at, say the real world US and British Royal Marines. It isn't like these forces have some kind of fatal or serious flaws to them. They might not be perfect, and there might be missteps and bad apples from time to time, but it isn't like you can paint an individual battalion with a broad brush and say "These guys are this way." Honestly, if you paint the Ultramarines as having some kind of glaring flaw, it detracts from what they are supposed to be. I mean, what's the glaring flaw of the Imperial Fists? Or the White Scars? Or the Iron Hands? I mean, they're just depicted as normal Space Marines too, without any serious gene seed flaws or dark pasts. Heck, the Imperial Fists are heralded as being "second only to the Ultramarines", which seems a rather lofty position as well. If every Space Marine chapter filled some kind of generic, cliche, niche, the universe would seem that much sillier. We already have Vampireymarines, Emorines, Fanatical Die-in-droves-marines, Furry Marines, Butchermarines, Bikemarines, Mongolrines, Poemarines, Burnymarines, Tragicmarines, Murderines, and even, thanks to 1d4chan, Angry Marines. There have to be at least a few chapters of Normalrines.

I do agree with the Space Wolves somewhat. but mostly because I think their fluff is silly at some times and contradictory to the canon in others (their recruiting practices make little sense since the implants have to start by 10-12 years old), and their rules have never been very well balanced compared to the other Space Marine armies.


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LoneLictor wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

Mephiston. Draigo. Enough said. However, nearly every faction has a special character who did something silly and over the top. Especially the Space Marine factions. Ulrik the Slayer killed several World Eaters with his bare hands.

However:

While the enemy was hammering at the Marines' defensive positions, Sgt. Basilone, in charge of 2 sections of heavy machine guns, fought valiantly to check the savage and determined assault. In a fierce frontal attack with the Japanese blasting his guns with grenades and mortar fire, one of Sgt. Basilone's sections, with its guncrews, was put out of action, leaving only 2 men able to carry on. Moving an extra gun into position, he placed it in action, then, under continual fire, repaired another and personally manned it, gallantly holding his line until replacements arrived. A little later, with ammunition critically low and the supply lines cut off, Sgt. Basilone, at great risk of his life and in the face of continued enemy attack, battled his way through hostile lines with urgently needed shells for his gunners, thereby contributing in large measure to the virtual annihilation of a Japanese regiment

.
John Basilone was one dude, unarmored and and possessed only of the strength, will, and determination of a normal man, and he held off an large Japanese unit with only two other men, a .30 caliber machinegun, and eventually a .45 pistol and a machete. One might hope that, given a defensible position like Basilone had, that a superhuman warrior, clad in ceramite power armor, and with centuries of combat experience, might be able to do something similar. In fact, in a lot of ways, Calgar's story sounds much like Basilone's.

No Calgar's stand is directly from when the Spartans fought at the pass, just Calgar is one dude because he is awesome

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LoneLictor wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

Mephiston. Draigo. Enough said.

Mephiton, Draigo, Tigerius, Calgar, Sanguinor, Thawn(who actually a necron), Creed(who also might be a necron), Logan, and most of the "hero" of heroes types are insanely luck or have the fluff armor of gods. But when theyre supposed to stand out in a groups like IG and SM they have to be truly epic.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They weren't conveniently absent. They just happened to be based on opposite side of the galaxy as Earth. Nobody was further from Earth by default than the Ultramarines. Horus then used the fact that he knew Guilliman would follow his orders to make sure the Ultramarines, the legion he knew was the strongest and most dangerous to his plans, were as far away as possible so he made up an assignment that would require the whole legion and gave it to the Ultramarines. And he sent the second largest legion to try and take them by surprise. But the Ultramarines managed to both defeat the Word Bearers, and remain the largest and strongest of legions. That's pretty bad ass. I mean, I've been an Ultramarines players since long before the Horus Heresy was anything more than a few paragraphs long, but hey, the truth is what it is.

You can hate the Ultramarines for whatever silly reasons your brain has concocted. Because you don't like the 5th Edition Codex, or Matt Ward, or who knows whatever nonsense you've cooked up. But the facts remain the same. They were the most successful legion before the Heresy, they were the most successful after it, and they've been the most successful Chapter since the Second Founding. Plus, their primarch wrote the book on being a Space Marine, literally. The book described as being like a mix of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and every other military genius for 30,000 years. How do we know all of this? Because Rick Priestley, the creator of 40K, told us so, twenty years ago almost, long before Matt Ward painted his first miniature.

well I was going to post something, but VS already said it (probably better too).

Calgar, Guilliman, Sicarius, and Orar FTW!

Thousands Sons man, their story is rather tragic and basically their whole goal is to gain knowledge and trolling Space Wolves. I feel that them as a chapter was betrayed by the Imperium.

Really they sided with their true betrayer. It's funny that they seek knowledge, but know so little of their past

I still like some of the second founding chapters better.. seems a lot of the legions only had a few named characters worth mentioning anyway otherwise it was sm 1 2 3 etc.

Second founding helped some, but hurt others. The BA didn't need a second founding, none of the successors are near as cool. But the Fists needed a massive attitude makeover

Yes well I like the gk and they cam at the end of HH/second founding. I kinda dig deathwatch too. Get a little bit of flavor from each.

Gk weren't really second founding though, they just happened to be founded at the same time as it happened

Thats why I said at the end of hh/second founding