Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CSM is fine in the mobility department. Chaos rhinos are top tier transports with access to good weapons such as havoc ml, combi melta, and combi plas.

The entire csm army is good in cc so a single heavy weapons unit is easy to protect.

Plasma termacide is pretty good, just think of it as a deepstriking quad plasma ccs for a turn followed by being 4 vanilla terminators with power swords. The thing to remember with csm elites is while chosen and termacide can be good units you can function without either of them. The core of a csm army is the mechanized troops, just find your playstyle with them and build the rest of your army off the troops.

odorofdeath wrote:Yes, I consider not scattering within 6 to be pretty pinpoint. If you don't take any icons than yes, its a crapshoot, but come on now...

I'll quote the A man here since he hits the point-

Ailaros wrote:Hmm, that's a lot of mull over.

Of specific points, I'd like to note that terminators still scatterless deepstrike around icons. That said, I'm still not a big fan of melticide. I can't imagine I'll often have an icon where I want to DS on turn 2 or 3, and even with Airborne Assault, my melta stormies were obnoxiously prone to mishaping themselves. Deepstriking with plasma is a fair amount safer though, and with a "hello" of 5 combi plasmas... sassy. Of course, oblits can also do this to, so...

Ye cannot guarantee that there will be an icon within 6" of the point ye need to deepstrike. That ain't the same as "my termicide is so accurate, I could drop it perfectly on top of a pin anywhere on this battlefield." Guideable, yes. Pinpoint, no.
As a small note, oblits CAN DS and say hello with close range plasma. But for the comparable price, you 2 oblits put out 4 TL shots to the termies 10 (not TL).

odorofdeath wrote:
The main problem I have with havocs is that they're static firepower in an army that desperately needs all the mobility it can get to win. Obviously we're best up close, but havocs sit around in the back.

Does not denying the enemy mobility increase your own? via fire lanes and anti-transport fire you can cut down your opponents transports and choice of ground to move through.

Ailaros wrote:Why do you think CSM "desperately" needs mobility more than any other army? Even in a foot horde army, you're likely to have some HWSs or lootas or something chilling out on the backfield. Why is CSM an exception?

I too am waiting to hear what makes CSM an exception.

Ailaros wrote:
Also, why are havocs bad against DE? I thought DE didn't have lots of long-range firepower, so in order to get close enough to use ravager guns they'd have to get close to DPs and nasty troops choices. Furthermore, why are oblits better against DE? I'd think the weight of fire would put things in favor of the havocs.

Because 4 autocannons are worse than 1 lascannon against all those light vehicles ?

Ailaros wrote:Hmm, that's a lot of mull over.

Of specific points, I'd like to note that terminators still scatterless deepstrike around icons. That said, I'm still not a big fan of melticide. I can't imagine I'll often have an icon where I want to DS on turn 2 or 3, and even with Airborne Assault, my melta stormies were obnoxiously prone to mishaping themselves. Deepstriking with plasma is a fair amount safer though, and with a "hello" of 5 combi plasmas... sassy. Of course, oblits can also do this to, so...

You mean oblits can do this with 2-3 plasmaguns, not 5-10? The decider for me- after you fire off your combiplasmas, you've got a bolter and powerweapon. Oblits keep pouring out the heavy/special weapon fire. If you DS onto a flank and snap up a unit in a hail of piping hot plasma, the terminators need something else nearby- the oblits don't. They can las/plas cannon snipe, flamer sweep objective cappers, melta vehicles etc. I think 2-3 DS'ing oblits wouldn't go too far astray.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, 4 autocannons shooting at a speeding serpent wrecks or immobilizes .58. The lascannons do it at .51 (assuming shooting front armor). They're basically the same. Of course, I'm now starting to more seriously consider missile just for the cost factor (and because I could give khorne berzerkers panzerfausts...)

It's all about the number of dice for me. I'd rather roll the handful of dice at mid strength than the few dice at high str. I find I whiff so many rolls with high S low volume of fire weapons, but get more consistent results with lots of dice. Especially as many dice as i can roll on the damage chart, since getting 3 pens and a glance and rolling 1,2,1,4 is frustrating. The painful survivability of vehicles- 6 lascannons penetrate, then shake and stun the crew repeatedly. Then your opponent shoots your dread with an autocannon, pens twice, rolls 6,6 Because a pen is a 1/3 chance of destruction, I want to roll on that chart as many times as possible.

Not that that always helps- my dread copped 3 WW with scatterlasers up the ass last month. got shook many a time, lost his AC, but was still kicking

Ailaros wrote:
Thirdly, I've never really been all that scared of transports, even with foot lists. The only problem I've had is catching them, which really only applies to eldar foolery. Plus, in many cases I'll only need to get the power fist in to close the deal on most of what will come out of a transport.

That said, I've never played a foot power armor list before, so being able to put down key things in advance seems like a good idea, thus me bothering with HS slots at all. I'm liking more and more the weight of fire argument, but I think I'm still bedazzled somewhat by deepstriking plasma, which is what keeps me liking obliterators...

o_0 foot...power armor list? This is going to be a foot CSM list?

... en' choice mate bloody good luck, you'll need a good serving of it! If anyone's going to do a foot CSM list, you'd have the best chance of making it uhhh... not ?
Anyways I don't fear the transport. I hate the transport, and I find it so much easier to win by destroying them. Let's say your playing a CSM army against your foot army. They are doing a rhino rush. They have havocs with 4x plasma guns. Imagine making them walk before they can use deliver that piping hot plasma. Much easier game. Also, my point of the transports job- it is to transport troops. The sooner it dies, and the closer to the opponents table edge (therefore, the less distance the cargo has been carried), the less impact it has. Like the havocs- The sooner you remove them from the table, the less firepower they deliver. They are a static support fire unit. The more you can A) force them to move, via being out of LoS etc etc, and B) the quicker they fall, the less firepower they will put out, therefore will be less able to do their job that the opponent bought them to do. The enemies dedicated, nasty CC unit is to chew up my stuff in CC. The longer I can keep it away and out of CC, the less impact it will have on me and my troops.

Now, the the thing to really think about, for those that don't- when you are avoiding a nasty CC unit or deathstar, blocking movement or putting up speedbumps- Is the unit really having a no solid effect on me, if I am moving around and away from me? If i am throwing up speedbumps to keep the nasty CC unit away? Can you use your opponents maneuvering away from your deathstar, to herd them like a sheep dog driving sheep to the pens? The value of a unit is not only its cost- it is also the effect it has on your opponent, and the opponent can be affected in more ways than making him/her throw dice and remove models

Ailaros wrote:
As for vindis, I played guard enough for large blast vehicles to still leave a lingering foul flavor, and for preds... well... for the cost of a 3 lascannons, I could have 2 lascannons and all the goodies of obliteratorness, or 4 missile launchers and not have all the finickiness of vehicles. Were I running a mech list personally, of course I'd take them over havocs, but as I'm not I'm more or less stuck between oblits and havocs, as far as I can see.

Yeah, I can see that point. I will though point out that CSM have alot less plates and blasts compared to IG, so its not so much a concern. And I must admit, I love 2 vindicators- like a pair of vicious hounds is what I like to think of them. For a 115p tank, they draw HUGE amounts of fire an hatred. And I don't get to play with the pie plates, so it feels good to use them now and then.
What about defilers? Why don't you like them? I'm guessing 1) the pie plate 2) the fire magnet factor on the AV12 gigantic footprint walker
Although, I think you'd be best of taking a page from Mannahin's book- 2 oblits to 1 havoc. I think that would be the best all round for a foot CSM list.

Jihallah wrote:You mean oblits can do this with 2-3 plasmaguns, not 5-10? The decider for me- after you fire off your combiplasmas, you've got a bolter and powerweapon. Oblits keep pouring out the heavy/special weapon fire. If you DS onto a flank and snap up a unit in a hail of piping hot plasma, the terminators need something else nearby- the oblits don't. They can las/plas cannon snipe, flamer sweep objective cappers, melta vehicles etc. I think 2-3 DS'ing oblits wouldn't go too far astray.

Right, this is really why I'm liking obliterators so much. Like plasmacide termies, they can deepstrike and hose something with the option of being a better version of meltacide in a pinch (only need to get within 12" to use multimelta? Yes, please). Then, after the drop, termies are just some dudes with power weapons, while the oblits are those same dudes, but they get power fists instead, and if there's no one nearby, they can suddenly sprout lascannons for cross-deployment-zone shots.

That, and you have the option of putting them on the field right away. Of course, being able to plop in and start plasma/fisting DE vehicles on THEIR side of the board seems like as good of an idea as plinking away from my side of the field. Looking back over my blood conquers reports, it seemed to me that in like two thirds of my games it would be better to deepstrike plasma or multimelta than to treat them like low-firepower, highly mobile havocs.

Jihallah wrote: For a 115p tank, they draw HUGE amounts of fire an hatred.

I suppose they are pretty cheap, but I have a hard time seeing how they fit in with a CSM army, honestly. Large blast high str means that they're going after tough infantry, but CSM has so many other ways of handling that target type (to start with, DP, which everybody takes). Basically, I don't see it filling a need that I have. Meanwhile, falcons and raiders are obnoxious, so I want something to go after them.

Jihallah wrote:What about defilers? Why don't you like them?

I'd really like to like defilers, but they're a walking tragedy, as far as I'm concerned. On the one hand, they're HUGE, which means no cover, while on the other hand they're AV12, which means really fragile. Too fragile for a unit that costs so much.

The cost also being prohibitive when you look at what it does. A single AP3 pie isn't that great without lash, while a battlecannon+autocannon isn't necessarily all that I'd be looking for with firepower either. There's just no way to give it guns that line up to make it the kind of shooter I want. The only thing I can see being useful about them is the fleet+HOWMANYATTACKS!? version, but I somewhat question how able they are to make it all the way across the field to start punching stuff. They do saturate with DP's, I'll give them that, but if I wanted a AV12 vehicle to charge across the field to get into close combat, well, I might as well just field dreads.

Jihallah wrote:Although, I think you'd be best of taking a page from Mannahin's book- 2 oblits to 1 havoc. I think that would be the best all round for a foot CSM list.

That's what I'm starting to think. With my current lists, this leaves me with, after 2DPs, troops and the above HS choices leaves me with about 70-75 points. Do I just plunk down a third, single obliterator, or is it not worth the bother? Otherwise, I'd basically be stuck with a small squad of LSDs (which, with havocs sitting on an objective might not be a bad thing)...

Defilers can hide behind a standard gw building. They are large enough to see over the building with havocs/oblits on the roof with clear los to enemy units, and over 50% of the defiler is covered for a cover save. That and if a cc unit gets too close the 2 units can shoot it and double assault the unit. Units with the mobility to make it into your deployment zone early in the game can't stand up to oblits and a defilers both charging them.

schadenfreude wrote:Defilers can hide behind a standard gw building. They are large enough to see over the building with havocs/oblits on the roof with clear los to enemy units, and over 50% of the defiler is covered for a cover save. That and if a cc unit gets too close the 2 units can shoot it and double assault the unit. Units with the mobility to make it into your deployment zone early in the game can't stand up to oblits and a defilers both charging them.

sooo every battlefield has a standard GW building? I know mine don't...

In any case, it is certainly possible to give them cover, but still, they're a 150+ pt. model that is difficult to give cover to (and you really don't want to make it some other unit's job just to give it cover).

Plus, if you're looking at dakka defilers, why not a vindicator? +1 front AV and a much better splatcannon, all while being cheaper. The extra heavy flamer and autocannon don't seem to make up the gap to me.

Plus, sort of the whole point of havocs is their weight of fire, which defilers don't have any better than obliterators. When comparing oblits and defilers, oblits certainly seem the better option.

My 3rd heavy in Chaos was always a combipred, after taking 6 oblits to maximize the 2 lash princes. The 2 las and 2 autocannon shots at the price is not terrible. That said, having 4 autocannon havocs is a pretty sweet idea.

I am assuming 5 Havocs with no upgrades other than the autocannons is 135 right? That is kinda the key point, as it slots in versus the identical costed combi-pred. I want to say I remember havocs being 15 and ACs being 15 but at work I have no access to my codex.

I know it's a few days later, but to answer DevianID a squad of 5 havocs with 4 ACs is the same cost as a Winged Lash Prince. Meaning add 20 onto your thought. I know we can't give weapon point costs, hence the cryptic answer. I tried a squad of havocs with MLs, a squad of Oblits and a squad of Autocannon havocs. Gave me a lot of versatility and was fun.

AC and ML cost the same in the chaos codex.

I read this thread and I don't have a lot of experience with lots of different setups against many different armies, but I just wanted to say that I have a unit of 8 Havocs (four of which have missile launchers) and a unit of Obliterators. I've used them in maybe 7 or 8 games now against mech IG and Tau, and the Havocs have been my MVP unit in 75% of those games, while my Obliterators have been almost completely useless every game. It might have something to do with Tau Disruption pods, but still. The Havocs do more damage and draw more fire while surviving with cover than the Obliterators.

Ailaros wrote:That's what I'm starting to think. With my current lists, this leaves me with, after 2DPs, troops and the above HS choices leaves me with about 70-75 points. Do I just plunk down a third, single obliterator, or is it not worth the bother? Otherwise, I'd basically be stuck with a small squad of LSDs (which, with havocs sitting on an objective might not be a bad thing)...

This. I use this to turn my havocs into a virtual scoring unit all the time, and it is a huge help in many games. Of course, you have the flexibility of having them pop out anywhere there's an icon, depending on where's the most useful spot at the time to put a cheap fearless scoring unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Also, I was curious, is there diminishing returns to either of these squads? At least, any moreso than usual? With the quality of troops and HQ choices in the CSM codex, obviously you don't want to have too much opportunity cost, but, say, when you hit two squads of two obliterators, is there some sort of problem with taking a third pair, compared to, say, havocs?

Yes, there is huge diminishng returns on the 3rd squad of oblits, and the 3rd oblit in a squad when they fire their plasma cannons.

2 lash princes lash 2 squads of meq. 2 squads of oblits plasma cannon the lashed squads. The 1st plasma cannon shot kills 5 out of every 6 meq, 2nd and 3rd plasma cannon shots are overkill.

I wouldn't actually say this is where you see oblit diminishing returns. If what you need them for is erasing squads with plasma cannons, a squad of 3 is absolutely the way to go. Because A) sometimes scatter will bite you. And B) sometimes the enemy will be able to get cover saves despite you having Lash (clever placement of other screening units, or just stopping Lash with a hood). In those cases, the third PC shot really can make a difference in piling sufficient hits onto the targeted squad to properly kill or cripple them.

schadenfreude wrote: The 3rd squad of oblits simply acts as 75 point lascannons often being used to open an av11 transport.

This. The main reason I go with the squads of two is that the primary purpose they serve in my lists is antivehicular fire support, and close-range melta/plasma shooting to cripple an enemy unit on my side of the table before I finish it off with assault. For those applications, paying 225 vs. 150 is a substantial premium,

So, I'm a little leery of just taking the 4 heavy weapons guys and the required add-on, but rather like the idea of more abblative wounds. In this case would it be worthwhile to whittle down the already small number of SLDs? How fragile really are havocs? On the one hand, I've had bad experiences against devestators in cover, but on the other hand we now live in a world of Ap3 weapons that ignore cover.

Also, quick question, I assume the IoCG goes on one of the heavy weapons guys, right?

IIRC you choose a model and give them the icon of your choice. HW guy, sarge (if you have him), random body- you choose. (double check me, this is off the top of my head!)

I use 'em. Either in a unit of four special weapons (I'm fond of lascannons) footslogging with a IoCG, or a unit with two special weapons in a rhino, to take advantage of the armor.

Love them, honestly. Obliterators are in my opinion, and I steer clear of them, if possible.

Lascannons are truly magnificent, and havocs are the best way to get them, besides laspreds, which are overpriced, in my opinion.

The IoCG can go on anyone and as you pressumed would work best on one of the HW havocs. Since the extra bodies are there to die in place of your HW havocs, you wouldnt want to lose your Icon before you reach half strength. That way if the numbers of Havocs drop below half, you still have a re-roll to help prevent breaking and leaving the game.

Cover is your friend. Ap3 weapons which ignore it are still pretty rare.

I usually don't take extra bodies anymore, as the unit's already more expensive than I'd like, and I usually am presenting enough other attractive targets for my opponent's heavy weapons that the Havocs don't get fired at much. When I first started using them I usually ran 8, then sometimes 7, then 6 a number of times, Every once in a while the extra bulletcatchers would help, but most of the time they didn't really matter, but just inflated the cost of the unit. If Dark Eldar or Eldar were more common opponents, I suspect I'd be adding some more bodies back in. Between double-splinter cannon venoms and tons of Scatter Laser fire from mech Eldar, they can force quite a number of saves on Havocs. Havocs are also a high-priority target for them, as four ML shots (or a ton of AC shots) are the best thing in our army for shooting down their skimmers. Flickerfields & Wave Serpent Energy Shields are more efficient against the fewer, S9 lascannon shots Oblits put out.

Jihallah wrote:Because people think static HW's are terrible for some bizarre reason. Oblits are a swiss army knife, true, but they don't spit out lots of shots. Havocs do. Me and Darkhound endorse them, so did a bunch of good CSM posters before they were driven off by being practically ignored. 4x AC or 2AC 2ML spits out some good anti AV10-12 firepower.

As a small note, deepstriking oblits can be quite good. The invul save and 2 wounds means you have a small chance of losing a model.

I'm not sure you can drive someone off by practically ignoring them. The two concepts seem to be mutually exclusive in fact.

Isn't that the whole concept behind ignoring trolls? Most folks post in part to get some response. Either debate or validation, or just some different perspectives. If you post the same thing over and over and are not listened to you get tired of it eventually. Even if you are listened to it gets tiresome. I put a few solid years of Eldar and CSM posts and commentary into the Army Lists forum when I was first on Dakka, but eventually got tired of mostly posting the same advice over and over.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Because people think static HW's are terrible for some bizarre reason. Oblits are a swiss army knife, true, but they don't spit out lots of shots. Havocs do. Me and Darkhound endorse them, so did a bunch of good CSM posters before they were driven off by being practically ignored. 4x AC or 2AC 2ML spits out some good anti AV10-12 firepower.

As a small note, deepstriking oblits can be quite good. The invul save and 2 wounds means you have a small chance of losing a model.

I'm not sure you can drive someone off by practically ignoring them. The two concepts seem to be mutually exclusive in fact.

Yes, if you ignore a human being, they are sure to hang around. Would you hang around your friends if they ignored you completely? If you do, you've got a 'd up idea of friendship.
It's easy to get tired of the same threads being put up and the same old opinions going round and round

Playing a slaanesh list, I find the blastmasters more than cover for the area effect that oblits become amti-tank. Given that I think it comes down to are you getting killed by hoards of little tanks or is the landraider/monolith your prolblem. If so then the oblit is the better choice as a MM or Lascannon shot is going to be better but otherwise, give me 4 autocannons. 8 S7 shots will drop anything AV12 or less a lot better than 2 or 3 S9 lascannon shots. Size the squad at 7 and you have arguably better resiliency than oblits who despite the 2 W can get instant killed by heavy weapons and can arguably be the best shot for opponents lascannons.

Ailaros wrote:

Also, why are havocs bad against DE? I thought DE didn't have lots of long-range firepower, so in order to get close enough to use ravager guns they'd have to get close to DPs and nasty troops choices. Furthermore, why are oblits better against DE? I'd think the weight of fire would put things in favor of the havocs.

IMO it has to do with the mix of weapons and synergy with Lash. 4x LC Havocs are great for opening up transports, but they lack TL-Flamers and Plasma Cannons. Flamers are great for hosing down DE troops and PC instant-death them without trouble. The 2+ helps a lot with the mass Splinter Cannon fire compared to 3+ even with the same T and number of wounds in the squad.

Plasma Cannons are just soooooooo good with Lash, and the only other place in the CSM codex you can find Plasma Cannons is on highly unreliable Chaos Dreads.


Also maybe it's an issue with my meta, but most of our area terrain is multilevel Ruins. It's very nice to be able to reposition within the ruin and still fire (Relentless). To protect against alpha-strikes (DE and Guard in mind here), you can also deploy them behind a wall out of site, then move to the other side of it in your turn (Ruins again) and fire. Can't do that with Havocs. Obviously YMMV depending on meta.


Maybe the ideal loadout is 2 squads of 3 Oblits and a squad of Havocs kitted out as you said, with ACs and a few ablative wounds.

I don't post too many CSM lists on dakka anymore, mainly because of the fact that people will tell you to take things you're trying to avoid, and because I can more or less figure out what works and what doesn't without any help from the community.

I think every time I've put "Chaos Lord, MOK, Mount, Lightning Claws" on an online list, I've immediately been told to take a DP instead

Same thing with havocs. I'll get my list ripped apart if I put "5 Havocs, 4 Lascannons, IOCG" down there. In my opinion, havocs have much more staying power than obliterators, especially when you give your opponent alternative targets and put them in a Rhino. I often use a defiler simply as a target to draw fire. Obliterators are usually shot to pieces, even with their 2+.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Plasma Cannons are just soooooooo good with Lash, and the only other place in the CSM codex you can find Plasma Cannons is on highly unreliable Chaos Dreads.

Ahh, so you play 4th ed walker/vehicle rules in 5th ed? Do you just do this for CSM, or do you do it for all walkers?

Jihallah wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Plasma Cannons are just soooooooo good with Lash, and the only other place in the CSM codex you can find Plasma Cannons is on highly unreliable Chaos Dreads.

Ahh, so you play 4th ed walker/vehicle rules in 5th ed? Do you just do this for CSM, or do you do it for all walkers?

This makes no sense in the context of what you quoted.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Plasma Cannons are just soooooooo good with Lash, and the only other place in the CSM codex you can find Plasma Cannons is on highly unreliable Chaos Dreads.

Ahh, so you play 4th ed walker/vehicle rules in 5th ed? Do you just do this for CSM, or do you do it for all walkers?

This makes no sense in the context of what you quoted.

What makes them unreliable? They will it will pivot to face double fire 1/6th of the time at the closest visible target (in the 45 degree firing arc from its PC, as per the LOS rules for vehicles and walkers) and I dunno about you but I tend to point my dreads towards the enemy, not at my own stuff. Or its going to gain fleet and charge the nearest enemy. So 1/3 times you won't control it, but if you did want it to charge it gets fleet, if you wanted it to shoot it fires twice. Chaos dreadnoughts aren't that bad or unreliable...

...unless your doing the 4th ed ruling of "walkers can pivot their torse for a 180 field of vision", which apparently is lacking in the 5th ed rulebook.

Jihallah wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Plasma Cannons are just soooooooo good with Lash, and the only other place in the CSM codex you can find Plasma Cannons is on highly unreliable Chaos Dreads.

Ahh, so you play 4th ed walker/vehicle rules in 5th ed? Do you just do this for CSM, or do you do it for all walkers?

This makes no sense in the context of what you quoted.

What makes them unreliable? They will it will pivot to face double fire 1/6th of the time at the closest visible target (in the 45 degree firing arc from its PC, as per the LOS rules for vehicles and walkers) and I dunno about you but I tend to point my dreads towards the enemy, not at my own stuff. Or its going to gain fleet and charge the nearest enemy. So 1/3 times you won't control it, but if you did want it to charge it gets fleet, if you wanted it to shoot it fires twice. Chaos dreadnoughts aren't that bad or unreliable...

...unless your doing the 4th ed ruling of "walkers can pivot their torse for a 180 field of vision", which apparently is lacking in the 5th ed rulebook.

I know exactly how the rules work in 5th edition, and nothing in my post suggested the contrary. Something that is unreliable 1/3 of the time is unreliable, especially if it works synergistically with something else.

We're getting away from the point of my post, which was that Oblits are the sole source of reliable Plasma Cannons for Chaos Space Marines, and that this is a major factor in their appeal.

They are the source of the goods. I've had far more success with dreads than flails though. Maybe I've just gotten the good side of the die. Lash and double plasma is sexy.

Not even an option for havocs/CSM squads to take HPG's leaves a bitter feeling towards GW

Jihallah wrote:They are the source of the goods. I've had far more success with dreads than flails though. Maybe I've just gotten the good side of the die. Lash and double plasma is sexy.

Not even an option for havocs/CSM squads to take HPG's leaves a bitter feeling towards GW

Unfortunately Lash and Fire Frenzy don't work, as Fire Frenzy happens at the beginning of the shooting phase.

I'm sure Dreads are great when they work though!

Ailaros wrote:So, I'm a little leery of just taking the 4 heavy weapons guys and the required add-on, but rather like the idea of more abblative wounds. In this case would it be worthwhile to whittle down the already small number of SLDs? How fragile really are havocs? On the one hand, I've had bad experiences against devestators in cover, but on the other hand we now live in a world of Ap3 weapons that ignore cover.

Also, quick question, I assume the IoCG goes on one of the heavy weapons guys, right?

I have found 7 to be very efficient. 8 if you are going to add a banner bearer with a mark.

Sorry, going to wishlist here...

I think the reason no one takes havocs is because, obviously, they eat up valuable HS choices. Aside from that, they still benefit from the same buffs the rank and file do, and can work in the same way. I wonder if there's any chance we'll see them in the troops choice, like Necrons got Immortals in. Necrons also have some pretty gigantic HS options, and it allows necrons to lay down a lot of shots every turn.

Although really, they're still a space marine army, so I don't see it happening, unless a special character puts them in the troops.