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Samus_aran115 wrote:Sorry, going to wishlist here...

I think the reason no one takes havocs is because, obviously, they eat up valuable HS choices. Aside from that, they still benefit from the same buffs the rank and file do, and can work in the same way. I wonder if there's any chance we'll see them in the troops choice, like Necrons got Immortals in. Necrons also have some pretty gigantic HS options, and it allows necrons to lay down a lot of shots every turn.

Although really, they're still a space marine army, so I don't see it happening, unless a special character puts them in the troops.

Would never seem them as troops because they are the same point cost and stats as vanilla CSM. What I could picture an Iron Warriors special character doing is making havocs a scoring unit much like what Pedro does for sternguard. The irony is a good option like that would just piss Iron Warrior players off because their heavy support slots are very hotly contested.

One issue is that other space marine armies can do "havocs" cheaper and better. Space Wolves for one. So you then end up fielding more points for something worse and then you are effectively paying a handicap when you fight an armiy like that.

The oblits are an all-comers list since it is a swiss army knife with something to do everything. Havocs are more like a scalpel. If you identify a definite weakness, you can setup your havocs to meet that need. The problem is havocs are going to fit ONE need or maybe two but will not be able to be flexible to every need. They will survive better than an Oblit and provide more firepower than a predator (at least for me, preds tend to get targeted and often dinged so they can't fire.)

DAaddict wrote:The problem is havocs are going to fit ONE need or maybe two but will not be able to be flexible to every need.

If you take Meltaguns anywhere else in the list, the only thing you'll need from your Heavy Support is long ranged anti-tank. Havocs and Predators do that the best, it's as simple as that. If I could pay an extra 25 points to take Obliterator weapons on my Predator I'd skip it as bloat. All the extra guns wouldn't help the Predator with its task, and they certainly don't help the Obliterator. You can give the Obliterator a different goal to use all of its weapons (deepstriking fire support) but then you still need to get something to open tanks at range.

Eldenfirefly wrote:One issue is that other space marine armies can do "havocs" cheaper and better. Space Wolves for one. So you then end up fielding more points for something worse and then you are effectively paying a handicap when you fight an armiy like that.

Our preds cost more too. And our vindicators cost more. So If we went for the full mechanized list, we'd be at a handicap too.
We are marines without speeders. God damn speeders are incredible when you use them after playing CSM.
We have no razorbacks, only rhino's, and our dreads are crazy.
We are a small elite force, who routinely uses our elites in a kamikaze fashion.


Yes. Our codex sucks, especially compared to new codices. What are you adding to the discussion, that isn't added to every-single-discussion-of-devastators-and-their-equivalents?
Every. Single. Time. Although I do admit it took alot longer this time. But Every. Single. Time. "Long fangs are better!"

We Know long fangs are the best devastator equivalent unit in all the Marine codices. It is common knowledge amongst 40k players

We're fighting a handicap against wolves anyway (GH, their cost compared to CSM, their counter attack and cheaper special weaps (and the free second special!), fist/p.weap on the squad, wolf banner... all in all our great strength of our troops do hit the Grey Wall of Fenris, with long fangs standing on their shoulders for a greater economic firepower base of HS choices.... yeah our codex sucks compared to wolves.

Which is why it is so satisfying to whoop them as CSM

DarkHound wrote:

DAaddict wrote:The problem is havocs are going to fit ONE need or maybe two but will not be able to be flexible to every need.

If you take Meltaguns anywhere else in the list, the only thing you'll need from your Heavy Support is long ranged anti-tank. Havocs and Predators do that the best, it's as simple as that. If I could pay an extra 25 points to take Obliterator weapons on my Predator I'd skip it as bloat. All the extra guns wouldn't help the Predator with its task, and they certainly don't help the Obliterator. You can give the Obliterator a different goal to use all of its weapons (deepstriking fire support) but then you still need to get something to open tanks at range.

Where have you been

You dropped my name at the beginning of the thread. I figured that was all that was necessary.

Yeah and then you revive the almost dead thread bit late eh?

Long Fangs can't summon scoring units.

Neither can Obliterators for that matter.

I think he's referring to long fangs

Well, so given all this, would pro-havoc people seriously recommend taking ONLY havocs with no obliterators? Certainly there must be some benefit to the lack of firepower in flexibility?

Or is the idea of no-oblits dumb radical rather than smart radical?

DarkHound wrote:You dropped my name at the beginning of the thread. I figured that was all that was necessary.

bloody mary, bloody mary...

I'm not a fan of only havocs. Two at max, one is sufficient. I pick for my other two a pair of vindicators, or preds, or oblits and a pred or even 2x oblits (although that's usually a smaller game).

No oblits is neither smart or dumb. You can do fine with or without them. It's best though to have a plan for them rather than take them just for the swiss army knife appeal.

Missile Launchers frag infantry and crack tanks; what more flexibility do you need?

Oblits are fantastic when you actually can't cover all of your bases. I use a pair of them from 750-1500. Past that I replace them with Predators and Dreadnoughts.

DarkHound wrote:Missile Launchers frag infantry and crack tanks; what more flexibility do you need?

S9, AP1, and multiple shots. Missile launchers have nothing on an unfortunately wide range of targets, thus why I would use lascannons instead.

Jihallah wrote:INo oblits is neither smart or dumb. You can do fine with or without them. It's best though to have a plan for them rather than take them just for the swiss army knife appeal.

Okay, so what would you say is the specific utility of obliterators?

Oblits are good; great with lash. Lash makes plasmacannons and TL-flamers and double-tapping-inside-12" TL plasma significantly better. They can also do lascannons for long-range transport popping, and multimeltas or meltas for short-range, but by the time they're in short range it's usually easy for the enemy to tie them up/kill them, or it's getting into the end stages of the game.

Havocs with missiles, ACs, or a mix are a bit more efficient for most transport-popping duties, and generally more durable in cover, at the cost of mobility and flexibility.

I was just toying with a 2k list featuring three squads of havocs, three squads of LDs, four rhinos full of assault goodness, two rhinos full of chosen melta goodness, and a winged nurgle prince. The rest of the army brings the scoring and mobility; the havocs just have to get rid of/reduce the enemy mobility.

Ailaros wrote:Missile launchers have nothing on an unfortunately wide range of targets, thus why I would use lascannons instead.

Those being Leman Russes, Landraiders, and Monoliths? Given that every Troops, Elite, and Fast Attack slot in the army is rocking at least 2 Meltaguns saying Havocs can't kill AV14 isn't a valid point; they don't need to.

Mannahnin wrote:Oblits are good; great with lash.

Okay, but outside of lash?

Mannahnin wrote:I was just toying with a 2k list featuring three squads of havocs...

And?

DarkHound wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Missile launchers have nothing on an unfortunately wide range of targets, thus why I would use lascannons instead.

Those being Leman Russes, Landraiders, and Monoliths?

And anything AV13 like preds and ironclads and hammerheads, along with anything that comes with a 2+, which lots of armies have. Meanwhile, they're still better against virtually any vehicle than a missile launcher. Frag rounds don't cover this gap.

DarkHound wrote: Given that every Troops, Elite, and Fast Attack slot in the army is rocking at least 2 Meltaguns saying Havocs can't kill AV14 isn't a valid point; they don't need to.

... from 12". There are certainly units in the game that require you to spend a lot of turns getting that close. Lascannons have no such issue.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Missile launchers have nothing on an unfortunately wide range of targets, thus why I would use lascannons instead.

Those being Leman Russes, Landraiders, and Monoliths?

And anything AV13 like preds and ironclads and hammerheads, along with anything that comes with a 2+, which lots of armies have. Meanwhile, they're still better against virtually any vehicle than a missile launcher. Frag rounds don't cover this gap.

On a point-for-point basis, though, are Oblit Lascannons really that much more effective than Havoc MLs, though? You're looking at a base price of 165 for 5 havocs with 4ML and an IoCG. Three Oblits (to get three Lascannons) is 225. The closely-comparable-in-points unit is 2 oblits for 150, and I'd say against most vehicle targets I'd rather have the 4 MLs.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote: Given that every Troops, Elite, and Fast Attack slot in the army is rocking at least 2 Meltaguns saying Havocs can't kill AV14 isn't a valid point; they don't need to.

... from 12". There are certainly units in the game that require you to spend a lot of turns getting that close. Lascannons have no such issue.

Sure, but even Lascannons are only of middling effectiveness against AV13+.

Ailaros wrote:Well, so given all this, would pro-havoc people seriously recommend taking ONLY havocs with no obliterators? Certainly there must be some benefit to the lack of firepower in flexibility?

Or is the idea of no-oblits dumb radical rather than smart radical?

I would never recommend more than 1 squad of havocs in a CSM list. In small games with only about 150 points being spend on HS I would say a squad of havocs is about as good as a squad of oblits. Most players are uncomfortable with so little HS, especially in 1750-2k games. At that point range limiting HS to 2 oblits and quad ML havocs saves a lot of points for more troops. The next step up in HS spending would be 4 oblits and a squad of quad ML havocs. Anything beyond that is overspending on HS, 450 points in HS should be enough for CSM unless we are talking apoc. The strength of the CSM codex lies more in it's troops and HQ than it does in HS. I think most CSM players overspend on HS.