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Armadeus wrote:As I said earlier, why don't the Space Marines use the Chimera? It has better front armour, better weapons, and a better transport capacity. Not to mention that it is amphibious and has more fire points. Could someone explain?

I don't think that Chimera is better armored then Rhino, IA section on it said that that is one of the best transports Mankind ever crafted. Both in transportation and protection.
One more thing I should add to this is - not many Marines can fit into Chimera in fluff. In fluff Rhino is bigger and can house more Astartes.
Only Land Raider can transport Terminators, because every other transport can transport only 1, 2 of them max. and that is not good when you need 6 transports to transport one unit.
Assault Marines also can't fit into Rhino, Chimera to.

Dr. Delorean wrote:You can't confuse rules with "real" life, that FAQ is for ease of play. Realistically, a Chimera probably would only be able to fit 3 or 4 marines, lying down stacked up like cordwood, since it was designed to fit 10 "normal" sized humans. Space Marines take up waaaaay more space.

A. Since codex GK is cannon, it is cannon that termies can fit in a chimera, and not a rhino.

B. Oygrens are the same or bigger then a termie, and they fit up to 6.

C. Chimera hold 12.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Dr. Delorean wrote:You can't confuse rules with "real" life, that FAQ is for ease of play. Realistically, a Chimera probably would only be able to fit 3 or 4 marines, lying down stacked up like cordwood, since it was designed to fit 10 "normal" sized humans. Space Marines take up waaaaay more space.

A. Since codex GK is cannon, it is cannon that termies can fit in a chimera, and not a rhino.

B. Oygrens are the same or bigger then a termie, and they fit up to 6.

C. Chimera hold 12.

What we are dwindling down to at this point is GW's obnoxious ability to produce so much conflicting fluff, iirc Black Library books are considered canon, so you have the varying reports of marines barely able to squeeze into a chimera, and of course the GK codex(which lets face it has horrible fluff) where Terminators can fit in with relative ease. As far as Ogryns, I thought they were smaller than a suited up space marine, I am certain examples exist where an Ogryn is massive, but is that the exception, or the rule amongst the breed?


Point being: Games Workshop really needs to figure out their fluff one of these days, who knows though, maybe confusion sells better.

Actually it is probably the same size if not slighly smaller inside according to the dimensions.

Chimera


Rhino


The Rhino has the self-repairing capability, 4 engines and is able to traverse over steeper terrain than the chimera; as a shock force that is probably the reason when combined with dogma.
The Chimera however has thicker armour, but actually didn't find much on the armour types themselves beyond this.

Rhino

The most common form of armouring is a bonded ceramite layer over a cast plasteel hull. However, other materials have been known to be used instead, from composite carbon compounds to conventional hardened steel.

However wasn't able to find the composition of the Chimera's armour which does matter even with it's superior thickness as it could be inferior enough to only make a slight difference.

For example the Land Raider has.

91-95mm
2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour

Still thinner than the Chimera's armour but vastly superior and likely much more expensive to produce given the nature of the Chimera.

An idea I got when reading the types of slopes both are able to handle is maybe the Chimera lacks the torque to carry the marines easily enough up hills and such, actually making it slower. But without really having the output of the engines and only the slope to go by it is sort of a guess and puts me on the fence.

n0t_u wrote:

An idea I got when reading the types of slopes both are able to handle is maybe the Chimera lacks the torque to carry the marines easily enough up hills and such, actually making it slower. But without really having the output of the engines and only the slope to go by it is sort of a guess and puts me on the fence.

Actually you raise a great point, the space marines combined weight may very well make the Chimera unusable for swift combat strikes(assuming marines can fit in it at all), Also it may have reliability issues making it dangerous for a quick strike force that needs to rely on the transport to always get them out, but if you are part of an advancing front if one piece of armor breaks down "woop-di- -doo"

Also the reliability issue would make sense for the Grey Knights, seeing as the majority of battles they fight are not against an easily stunned foe, making a vehicle that is thin plated but reliable ignored over a beefier yet less reliable design.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:sorry gotta go with ObliviousBlueCaboose on the space thing, since chimeras can carry Ogryns and they are quite a bit bigger than even a terminator, again it likely is something to do with PA or just space marine tradition and dogmatic adherance to the same.

But a Razor back is basically their version of a Chimera, just not quite as well armed.

...did you just say that a Razorback carries worse weapons than a Chimera?

well armed as in abundance of weaponry, 1 twin linked weapon as aposed to 2 = not as WELL armed not better armed.

Wasn't the ultramarines riding around just fine in the chimeras on the black library books? I remember them looking out the firing ports too at the scenary after they got dropped off after the whole Iron warriors planet thing.

Maybe it's the same logic like why Guard Regiments don't have Predators - vehicle unique to that army.

Brother Coa wrote:Maybe it's the same logic like why Guard Regiments don't have Predators - vehicle unique to that army.

Thats because the Leman Russ is a better tank for the guard. More firepower, better armor, but slower.

SM are shock troops.
Thicker armour on the EDIT: sides and the lack of repair difficulty gives it an obvious advantage.
They already have all the firepower they need in 1 10-man squad. They can turn the rhino into a bunker if they need to.
3 access points gives assault troops (without jump packs) a good start.
There is likely some element of dogma here as well.

Rules shouldn't even be mentionned in his discussion. The vehicles rules don't really give us a good picture of the vehicle except in the case of relative AV...

I think you mean thicker armor on the side.

I doubt many SM chapters would appreciate the chimaera's feeble rear armour. Strong front, weak rear is fine for things that want to roll forward in a wave (like guard vehicles tend to) but it puts a real dent in your tactical flexibility.

A rhino isn't disadvantaged in any way by the direction you shoot at it from, and it's immune to small arms fire (importantly, boltgun fire) from every direction, while the chimaera has to be precious about its backdoor which is a hassle space marines probably can't afford in a lot of situations.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think you mean thicker armor on the side.

I did.

I think what it comes down to is this....

The Chimera is way to ugly for marines to be seen rolling around in, never get any chicks in that yugo wannabe.

That and a crew of 3 vs. a crew of 1, makes a big difference when you have limited manpower.

and its ugly.

disclaimer : Iactually like the chimera, other than its turret that is.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Yugo wannabe.

Hey it's not funny insulting our national car.

Yugo...
I always thought the chimera was based off the BMP.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Dr. Delorean wrote:You can't confuse rules with "real" life, that FAQ is for ease of play. Realistically, a Chimera probably would only be able to fit 3 or 4 marines, lying down stacked up like cordwood, since it was designed to fit 10 "normal" sized humans. Space Marines take up waaaaay more space.

A. Since codex GK is cannon, it is cannon that termies can fit in a chimera, and not a rhino.

B. Oygrens are the same or bigger then a termie, and they fit up to 6.

C. Chimera hold 12.

A) "Canon". You're also missing that the GK FAQ was in response to questions about can an Inquisitor in Terminator Armour with a retinue can fit into a Chimera. It's since been abused by people to be "Can GK Terminators get into a Chimera".
B) "Ogryns". They're also not 'the same or bigger than a Terminator", Terminator armor is bulkier than even an Ogryn wearing armor. Ogryn also don't like riding in Chimeras and tend to be deployed on foot, unless they have a Commissar overseeing them.
C) A Chimera holds 12 combat-ready Guardsmen.

The armor on a Rhino doesn't need to be "excessive". It's a fast-moving vehicle, which you seem to be confusing them closing to grips with the enemy as "assaulty". Astartes are best at mid-range and closer, which the Rhino gets them there. The armor is also a very "meh" factor, since the operators have plenty of armor themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:Same speed is not necessarily true. In-game terms do not reflect background entirely.

Chimeras are a better option for the Imperial Guard, but once again:

The Space Marines are not the Imperial Guard. Stop trying to compare 1:1, and people need to keep this in mind whilst they do comparisons.

According to IA volumes I&II, chimeras and rhinos have the same speed: 70kph on road, 55kph off road.

The Chimera has the same speed than a rhino, and is yet 8 tonnes heavier (implying a more powerful engine), has 40-90mm more armour on the hull and superstructure and packs a heavier punch in terms of armament. They are also much easier to produce.
The chimera beats the rhino in every possible way.

I think the SM keep using the rhinos for two reasons:

1°/ Tradition. Technology in 40K is as much a matter of dogma and religion than science. SM are used to the rhino and its machine spirit. On their point of view, chimeras are tools, rhinos are comrade in arms.

2°/ Versatility. The Rhino's chassis is used by SM for the majority of their fighting vehicles (predators, vindicators, razorbacks, etc) which are all much better than their IG counterparts (I'd pick a vindicator over a thunderer siege tank any time).

The Rhino is also capable of climbing steeper surfaces, 45 degrees compared to the Chimera's 25.

It may not have a stronger engine, but it has 4.

The Chimera and Rhino just have different roles, so to compare them side by side is not going to be a fair comparison. Overall I think Kanluwen covered it nicely, the Chimera is meant to support the troops once they reach their destination whereas the Rhino has more of a taxi-like role (more concerned with delivering the Marines themselves than suporting them). I assume Rhinos are supposed to be faster and more manoeuvreable, which of course is not reflected in the rules.

If I've made a mistake with the terminology please correct me, but I think you could say that the Chimera feels more like an IFV while the Rhino is more of an APC.

On the subject of engines, model-wise, where on Earth is the Chimeras located?

Well does it really matter that the rhino can be maintained easily? The chimera is made in a lot of places therefore having more access to the vehicle. But the other points are really good so I'll just agreee with them.

You should rather ask why does the Rhino suck so much?
The Chimera is an cheap mass produced AFV while the Rhino is used by SM that have significant resources.
How much does the training and equipment of an 10 man SM squad cost?
And the whole squad can be lost in an instant if their vehicle gets blown up. So it would make sense if they actually had proper APC:s and not metal boxes with tracks.

I quess GW:s Department of degradation has been at work once again.

Yet it doesn't suck so much if you look at it more...

Laodamia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Same speed is not necessarily true. In-game terms do not reflect background entirely.

Chimeras are a better option for the Imperial Guard, but once again:

The Space Marines are not the Imperial Guard. Stop trying to compare 1:1, and people need to keep this in mind whilst they do comparisons.

According to IA volumes I&II, chimeras and rhinos have the same speed: 70kph on road, 55kph off road.

The Chimera has the same speed than a rhino, and is yet 8 tonnes heavier (implying a more powerful engine), has 40-90mm more armour on the hull and superstructure and packs a heavier punch in terms of armament. They are also much easier to produce.
The chimera beats the rhino in every possible way.

Except for the ways that matter.
1) The engine on the Chimera is not more powerful than the Rhino's, as there's two of them mounted in the track housings. The Chimera and Rhino weight discrepancy is also irrelevant because you're not accounting for the 10 500+ pound individuals wearing Power Armour that the Rhino has to carry versus the 12 160-170ish lb individuals in Flak or Carapace armor that the Chimera carries.
2) The armor on the Chimera's front is much thicker than the rest for a reason. Why? Because the Chimera is almost always fitted with extra armor and track skirts on the side, and if in a position where the Guard have deployed fortifications or have no need to be mobile the Chimera can be parked hull down with sandbagged emplacements on either side of its weaker side armor without screwing it up. The weaponry is, again, a very "meh" reason. Multilasers are good for engaging masses of lightly armored individuals but can occasionally pack a real punch itself. Why would the Marines need that, they're not going to be engaging "masses of lightly armored individuals" at range.
3) The Rhino is actually FAR easier to produce. Astartes Chapters produce their own Rhinos, for the most part. The only time you don't see that happen is when a Chapter is first being formed or has suffered a devastating loss of material, in which case the Mechanicus steps in to help get them back up to combat readiness.

I think the SM keep using the rhinos for two reasons:

1°/ Tradition. Technology in 40K is as much a matter of dogma and religion than science. SM are used to the rhino and its machine spirit. On their point of view, chimeras are tools, rhinos are comrade in arms.

2°/ Versatility. The Rhino's chassis is used by SM for the majority of their fighting vehicles (predators, vindicators, razorbacks, etc) which are all much better than their IG counterparts (I'd pick a vindicator over a thunderer siege tank any time).

It's not so much tradition as it is common sense.
Rhinos can be deployed quickly into battle, and can be repaired easily on the field.
They're also easy to manufacture with the Master of the Forge being able to supervise the construction of them, and ensuring that everything is to spec.

I'm not sure in what world you've come up with these 1:1 comparisons, but stop. Astartes are not Guardsmen, and do not need vehicles to do the same thing.

1)The Predator is not going to be rolling into a major tank battle like the Leman Russ will be. It's going to be engaging targets from the side, stalking enemy armor and ambushing them.
Almost like a...well, predator of some kind. The Leman Russ is like a wolf(no pun intended, seriously!), operating quite effectively in groups of tanks to bring down heavier foes. The Predator is more like a mountain lion or a cougar, attacking from ambush and bringing down targets without ever really giving them a chance to fight back. The exception to this is the Baal Predator variant, which is more like a rabid dog charging in and hoping it hits something.
2) The Vindicator is better than the Thunderer? What? Why are you using the THUNDERER as a comparison here? The Guard's primary siege tank is the Demolisher, and when outfitted correctly the Demolisher is far more effective at the role than the Vindicator. The Thunderer is a field conversion of a Destroyer Tank Hunter which has lost its priceless Laser Destroyer and is refitted with a Demolisher cannon.
3) The Razorback is better than what? The Chimera? In terms of what? The Razorback sacrifices most of its troop carrying capacity to give the operators firepower. That's not a very good tradeoff for an army which values mobility rather than overwhelming firepower.

n0t_u wrote:Yet it doesn't suck so much if you look at it more...

How come? Its not amphibious, its profile does not reduce the effect of at-weapons or mine blasts, it has very little weaponry while it could have for an example an typhoon missile launcher with an twin linked lascannon without compromising the cargo space.

The IG has mass produced troops while the SM are supposed to be some sort of an elite troop so the equipment of the SM should be significantly better than the equivalent of the IG.

The Rhino is just another paradox in the 40k fluff just like terminators using storm bolters that can be used also by normal humans, instead of heavy bolters or some other proper weapons.

-Loki- wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The only thing the rhino is better at is having av 11 sides and 3 access points.

And you found what makes it a good Space Marine vehicle right there. When you get in the middle of the enemy, it's not great having a single ramp at the back to deploy from. A Chimra is meant to park back, give cover fire, and the Infantry depoloy and get ready behind it.

Rhinos drive up in the middle of the enemy, open up, and Marines pour out and start killing things. If a hatch is covered by the enemy, they have others to choose from.

Fluffwise, they have the top hatches too, but it's difficult to model that into the tabletop rules.


It's exactly what it's been said to be: a Marine delivery device. The Chimera is an infantry fighting vehicle, designed to be as much a part of the battle as its cargo. The Rhino has no need for such things. It drives up, disgorges its troops, and maybe shoots a bit with its Storm Bolter. The Marines have Predators and Razorbacks for direct fire support. And, well, they're Marines. Their assault/drop plans are going to account for unfordable rivers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wardragoon wrote:Point being: Games Workshop really needs to figure out their fluff one of these days, who knows though, maybe confusion sells better.

The real problem is that the game rules don't have to mesh with the fluff. The tabletop rules exist solely to create a "balanced", fun, playable, profitable game. The fluff is trying to depict an imaginary universe that exists behind the actual game. A universe where battles aren't a measure of what two equally powerful armies can do placed on a more or less neutral battlefield and given equivalent objectives. Hence why Space Marines are so much better in the fluff. If they were as strong on the board as they are in the books, you'd only have to buy about twenty of them and you'd be done with your army and GW makes no money and almost nobody plays any other armies because of cost reasons. At the same time, the Chimera carries all sorts of things for tabletop efficiency. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense that Chimeras can fit Ogryns or Terminators with no problems. But if they don't, then GW has to make another APC model for the IGuard, one that is highly specialized and unlikely to sell in great numbers. Every time you consider fluff versus rules things like this, you always have to factor in real world economics. Does it make sense in the fluff, or does it make business sense?

It coud also be so that guard have their own vehicles.. I mean everything in the imperium doesnt need to be shared just cause . Then we get into the deal with why don't the guard use storm ravens, lanraiders, etc. Why dont the psykers use nfw. Why dont the long fangs show the other devastators how to shoot at other stuff etc. The reason is to give each army something different and unique on the table top. There is no real world logic. Otherwise sw would have never stopped using leman russ tanks.

ninja13 wrote:Well does it really matter that the rhino can be maintained easily? The chimera is made in a lot of places therefore having more access to the vehicle. But the other points are really good so I'll just agreee with them.

The benefit of the Rhino's maintainability is that it requires almost NO logistical support. No spare parts, no techpriests.

The IG always has logistical support, at least if it is going to win, so this isn't a problem. Space marines usually do not. A chimera is going to be down when it breaks down, a Rhino won't be. Worst case scenario they can combine two wrecked Rhinos to create a new one.

That is almost enough reason for the space marines to use them right there. They can fight protracted campaigns in isolation, something they could not do with a Chimera.

Add that to it's greater climb angle and more versatile exits, and I think it makes a good case for itself as a SM vehicle.