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As I said earlier, why don't the Space Marines use the Chimera? It has better front armour, better weapons, and a better transport capacity. Not to mention that it is amphibious and has more fire points. Could someone explain?

You could technically even put terminators in there btw (official FAQ - for GK anyway)

The only problem is that you'd also need henchmen units around to take the chimera as a dedicated transport. It's not entirely a bad idea btw but it just plays all hell with the points along with the FOC and need to take extra units that may not fit your list properly just for a relatively unsturdy transport since to assault out of it, you'd have to spin the whole thing around with rear and side armor to the enemy unless you want your troops to use 6' movement just to clear the back of the tank.

Two of them won't fit underslung beneath a Thunderhawk.

Ive wondered this too. Its clearly the better of the two.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Ive wondered this too. Its clearly the better of the two.

Better for what?

The Chimera is essentially a "rolling bunker"--and is used as such, in terms of the background. Guardsmen use the Chimera as what amounts to a mobile operating station. The thing is jampacked with recharging stations for Lasguns, usually filled with spare ammunition for the squad's support weapons, and has fairly complex communications uplink gear allowing for the officer in charge of the squad to be constantly in contact with the higher echelons.

The Rhino is a fast-moving vehicle, comparatively. It's used to deliver troops right now with minimum fuss and muss, while the Chimera is used to support said troops. The Chimera's equivalent within the Astartes is the Land Raider, not the Rhino or Razorback. The Rhino/Razorback is best compared to the recently introduced "Centaur" vehicle we saw with the Death Korps of Krieg.

Same speed, however chimera has more room for troops, and can carry termies if needed and is amphiebious.

Same speed is not necessarily true. In-game terms do not reflect background entirely.

Chimeras are a better option for the Imperial Guard, but once again:

The Space Marines are not the Imperial Guard. Stop trying to compare 1:1, and people need to keep this in mind whilst they do comparisons.

Chimeras have an asset in a built in heavy weapons without affecting its carrying complement (whereas Rhinos have to adopt the Razorback variant.) And as noted it can be used as a mobile bunker. Rhinos are much tougher (in no small part due to their more sophisticated hulls and drive system and self repair capability)

Rhinos are basically meant to carry and deploy marines close up. They need to be durable mainly and be able to clear a space for troops to deploy, and that's all. The attached bolters (storm bolters) suffice for all the close in firepower it needs (Marine can easily provide what they need on their own, or use a Razorback.)

The ablity to drive on the water, is they key factor for me, plus the heavy weapons, and greater cargo space. Say you need to get a 10 man squad across a river fast. Rhinos not going to cut it. Chimera just zips on across.

yea, the 10 side armor on a chimera would make it an unsuitable vehicle for space marines. Its meant for firing lines. However, a rhino darting to get marines into position would give all targets easy side shots.

Also, there are fluff reasons that are intangible... basically that rhinos can be repaired and maintained super easily, while chimeras require tech-priests to look after. A squad of marines doesn't need a flashy vehicle, they need something to RELIABLY get them from point A to point B.

Are we talking terms of rules here or fluff? Because they may be the same speed and have different AV to keep the game balanced

Also, the Rhino has an extremely versitile(sp?) chasis with it making up about more than two-thirds of the Marines vehicles and it is highly mobile. The Rhino is also built to last and is extremely reliable as it can run on 1 of its 5 different engines, run on any type of fuel, and can be easily repaired by its crew.

I always imagined that there were some tech-fluff reasons that power armored forces always run rhinos, maybe it has armor recharge stations, or is in some other way very PA friendly, it also may have to do with a chimera having a 3-4 man crew and a rhino a 2 person one, logistics of manpower.

That or maybe the marines are slaves to dogma...Rhinos were good enough 9,000 years ago and are still good enough now, dagnabit!! (shakes power cane at all new fangled ideas)

I always assumed in the fluff that Rhinos were faster, had more advanced support systems (like a "Machine Spirit" AI and self-repairing systems), and more durable/reliable.

Harriticus wrote:I always assumed in the fluff that Chimeras were faster, had more advanced support systems (like a "Machine Spirit" AI and self-repairing systems), and more durable/reliable.

are you sure you don't mean Rhinos..chimeras seem more designed for the common foot soldier, Marines are the ones with machine spirits.

Yeah I meant Rhinos...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The ablity to drive on the water, is they key factor for me, plus the heavy weapons, and greater cargo space. Say you need to get a 10 man squad across a river fast. Rhinos not going to cut it. Chimera just zips on across.

The thing is, Guard need that kind of space. Marines don't. Guard need it because they fight protracted engagements, so a Chimera full of ammo recharge stations, heavy weapon ammo, maybe even spare heavy weapons, is an asset.

Space Marines don't fight protracted engagments. They use Thunderhaks, Vindicators, Whirlwinds and even Land Raiders to hammer a hole, and Rhinos speed into the hole, deploy Marines into the middle of the enemy, and kill everything. The fight is over before they need all of the surplus equipment a Chimera carries. After that, they either withdraw to where they can resupply, or call in a drop pod full of equipment if they need it.

Needing an amphibious vehicle is again not required for the same reason - Guard might be fighting for a long time, and crossing deep rivers and the like. Marines deploy by Thunderhawk or Drop Pod right on station if there is an obstacle, fight from the inside, clear the enemy out, and call for withdrawal.

Different combat roles and tactics dictate support vehicles used. Rhinos fit in with the rest of the Marines arsenal.

I seem to recall that in one of the ultramarines novels, Uriel and Pasanius are riding in one and it is too tight of space for them.

The chimera chasis is just as versitile. Most guard vehicles are varients of the chimera. According to Lexacanum they are just as fast as the rhino. Has a heavy weapon, plus a secondary heavy weapon. Has more room, is amphibious, and has thicker armor, which is odd seeing that the rhino has a better side av. The only thing the rhino is better at is having av 11 sides and 3 access points.

I think its a case of the rhino is older, so its thought of as a "better" more elite vehicle. Other than that, marines should use the Chimera.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The chimera chasis is just as versitile. Most guard vehicles are varients of the chimera. According to Lexacanum they are just as fast as the rhino. Has a heavy weapon, plus a secondary heavy weapon. Has more room, is amphibious, and has thicker armor, which is odd seeing that the rhino has a better side av. The only thing the rhino is better at is having av 11 sides and 3 access points.

I think its a case of the rhino is older, so its thought of as a "better" more elite vehicle. Other than that, marines should use the Chimera.

Hell with that...just save up all their stamps and admech coupons and have every superhuman gene sharing with the emperor space marine ride in a land Raider, the way they should anyway.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The only thing the rhino is better at is having av 11 sides and 3 access points.

And you found what makes it a good Space Marine vehicle right there. When you get in the middle of the enemy, it's not great having a single ramp at the back to deploy from. A Chimra is meant to park back, give cover fire, and the Infantry depoloy and get ready behind it.

Rhinos drive up in the middle of the enemy, open up, and Marines pour out and start killing things. If a hatch is covered by the enemy, they have others to choose from.

Ahh i see. You subscribe to all marines are assualty. I subscribe to victory through superior firepower. Marines suck in h2h*. Why put them there?

*except assualt termies.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The ablity to drive on the water, is they key factor for me, plus the heavy weapons, and greater cargo space. Say you need to get a 10 man squad across a river fast. Rhinos not going to cut it. Chimera just zips on across.

Marines are in armour sealed against the environment. They can just walk across.

My guess is that the rhino stacks better and fits under thunderhaws etc.

insaniak wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The ablity to drive on the water, is they key factor for me, plus the heavy weapons, and greater cargo space. Say you need to get a 10 man squad across a river fast. Rhinos not going to cut it. Chimera just zips on across.

Marines are in armour sealed against the environment. They can just walk across.

Possible. But wouldnt it be more efficent if they had a amphibious transport. It would be faster, plus they wouldnt have to navagate the bottom of a river.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Ahh i see. You subscribe to all marines are assualty. I subscribe to victory through superior firepower. Marines suck in h2h*. Why put them there?

No, he said "start killing". Marines have boltguns, special and heavy weapons - they shoot things just fine. A Rhino with three doors gives them more deployment options than a Chimera with only the rear door. A Rhino has several ways to use it's best armor to shield it's cargo from incoming fire while the marines shoot up something - a Chimera does so less reliably as it has only one exit.

Marines are shock troops though not attrition like the guardsmen, different roles different tools. This also seems to assume that if the chimera can hold 10 guardsmen it sure as hell can carry 10 marines.

According to the gk faq termies can fit in a chimera. Which they cant fit in a Rhino. So the chimera has to be bigger.

You can't confuse rules with "real" life, that FAQ is for ease of play. Realistically, a Chimera probably would only be able to fit 3 or 4 marines, lying down stacked up like cordwood, since it was designed to fit 10 "normal" sized humans. Space Marines take up waaaaay more space.

sorry gotta go with ObliviousBlueCaboose on the space thing, since chimeras can carry Ogryns and they are quite a bit bigger than even a terminator, again it likely is something to do with PA or just space marine tradition and dogmatic adherance to the same.

But a Razor back is basically their version of a Chimera, just not quite as well armed.